Less restrictive Power Pools & additional enhancement slots

[Luminara]

  On 8/18/2023 at 8:27 PM, Akisan said:

And if the price of the boxing attacks actually mattering is a nerf to Tough/Weave, that's fine - it's poor design for Boxing/Kick to be a tax on people taking Tough/Weave.  

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It's consistent with primaries and secondaries.  Powers acquired earlier are frequently rendered moot by powers acquired later, especially in regard to attacks, and doubly so in a game which allows players to adjust the cooldown times on their top tier attacks to such a degree that they can create entire attack chains without anything below T4 or T5.

 

Is it a great design?  No.  There are other ways to design a powers system, ways which wouldn't obviate early choices.  But that ship sailed when archetypes and power sets were created, and the design we have is the design we have, for good or ill.  It can't be altered, not even for seemingly meaningless or pointless pool restrictions, without vast repercussions.

[Akisan]

  On 8/18/2023 at 9:00 PM, Rudra said:

This is where we disagree. While some players may skip their T1 and/or 2 attacks doesn't mean the baseline for comparison for pool powers is the T3.

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And it doesn't have to be that damaging, if it provides good utility.  Stuff like Air Superiority only does T1 damage, but 100% knock-up.  Jump kick (same rank, also in a travel pool)? IIRC, it's got a longer cast, but is still T1 damage, and only has a chance to stun.  Stuff like that should either get bumped damage (T2-2.5?), always stun, or be reworked to have some other effect.

 

  On 8/18/2023 at 9:00 PM, Rudra said:

Like you acknowledged earlier, pool power attacks are meant to be inferior in some way to primary/secondary attacks.

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That's definitely the current design philosophy, especially in regards to damage.  I'm saying they should be on-par, damage-wise, or provide good utility. I'd even be ok if other pools followed up on what they did with fighting - like Arcane Bolt having a shorter cast time, or Jump Kick guaranteeing the stun if certain other powers are picked in their pools.

[OverkillEngine]

  

  On 8/18/2023 at 8:27 PM, Akisan said:

So not advocating for prereqs to be removed.  I'm asking for pool attacks to be reviewed so the majority aren't widely regarded as wasted picks.

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Yeah that's the thing with Boxing and Kick, is that even if one disregards their purpose as a power tax, even with investment they are under most circumstances still inferior choices to take for even the majority of builds they have the most synergy with (AT's with decent melee damage modifiers). And they occupy the same damn role too. So you can pick a crappy attack....or a crappy attack. But if you take both and a 3rd crappy attack later on, they kind of might reach mediocre status! Oh Boy! 🙄

Flight Pool does it right: If I don't want or need the melee utility of Air Superiority, I can take Hover which occupies a different role in the same theme, or vice versa.

Leaping Pool does it right: If I don't want or need the melee utility of Jump kick, I can take Combat Jumping which occupies a different role in the same theme, or vice versa.

Sorcery Pool does it right: If I don't want or need the ranged utility of Arcane Bolt, I can take Spirit Ward which occupies a different role in the same theme, or vice versa.

And on top of that, there are good reasons to take those powers even without them being power taxes.

Edited August 19, 2023 by OverkillEngine

[Rudra]

  On 8/19/2023 at 7:01 AM, OverkillEngine said:

  

 

 

Yeah that's the thing with Boxing and Kick, is that even if one disregards their purpose as a power tax, even with investment they are under most circumstances still inferior choices to take for even the majority of builds they have the most synergy with (AT's with decent melee damage modifiers). And they occupy the same damn role too. So you can pick a crappy attack....or a crappy attack. But if you take both and a 3rd crappy attack later on, they kind of might reach mediocre status! Oh Boy! 🙄

Flight Pool does it right: If I don't want or need the melee utility of Air Superiority, I can take Hover which occupies a different role in the same theme, or vice versa.

Leaping Pool does it right: If I don't want or need the melee utility of Jump kick, I can take Combat Jumping which occupies a different role in the same theme, or vice versa.

Sorcery Pool does it right: If I don't want or need the ranged utility of Arcane Bolt, I can take Spirit Ward which occupies a different role in the same theme, or vice versa.

And on top of that, there are good reasons to take those powers even without them being power taxes.

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You can't really compare travel pools to non-travel pools. And all three pools you cited, are travel pools.

[OverkillEngine]

  On 8/19/2023 at 7:37 AM, Rudra said:

You can't really compare travel pools to non-travel pools. And all three pools you cited, are travel pools.

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I absolutely can because they are still competing via the same opportunity cost mechanism.

[Akisan]

  On 8/19/2023 at 7:37 AM, Rudra said:

You can't really compare travel pools to non-travel pools. And all three pools you cited, are travel pools.

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Well, 2 travel pools and an Origin pool, which have their own weirdness involved (like being mutually exclusive & having the only non-epic ranged pool attacks).  And @OverkillEngine didn't even mention that the first three powers are available in Flight and Leaping, making it that much less likely for the attack to be the preferred pick.

[OverkillEngine]

I mean hell, I could bring up how Concealment: Your entry powers are a choice of a self toggle or an ally buff; both within the same theme but different roles/target. Or Medicine, a choice of an ally heal or a foe/ally applied debuff/buff, so while you are partially restricted in choice of target they are still a different role within the theme. Similar for Presence, you get a choice of a taunt or a placate. Different functions, same theme.
 

But I figured people could get the point without me being that exhaustive. Guess not.

Out of all the non APP/Epic pools, Fighting and Leadership are the odd men out. And Leadership's entry powers are good enough for it to not be an issue, on top of it potentially providing something that a character has none of in their primary and secondary - team buffs. And at least they are different buffs, instead of just the same buff with a choice of sprinkles. Every build has access to attacks with a secondary effect (otherwise they'd not be able to level solo). Fighting's entry powers are indistinct in function from each other.

[Rudra]

  On 8/20/2023 at 6:34 AM, OverkillEngine said:

I mean hell, I could bring up how Concealment: Your entry powers are a choice of a self toggle or an ally buff; both within the same theme but different roles/target. Or Medicine, a choice of an ally heal or a foe/ally applied debuff/buff, so while you are partially restricted in choice of target they are still a different role within the theme. Similar for Presence, you get a choice of a taunt or a placate. Different functions, same theme.
 

But I figured people could get the point without me being that exhaustive. Guess not.

Out of all the non APP/Epic pools, Fighting and Leadership are the odd men out. And Leadership's entry powers are good enough for it to not be an issue, on top of it potentially providing something that a character has none of in their primary and secondary - team buffs. And at least they are different buffs, instead of just the same buff with a choice of sprinkles. Every build has access to attacks with a secondary effect (otherwise they'd not be able to level solo). Fighting's entry powers are indistinct in function from each other.

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Not that I agree with you, because I don't, but what would you suggest for the Fighting pool that doesn't step on the Leadership pool, the Medicine pool, or any other pool? Especially since the theme of the Fighting pool, since that is what you are focused on, and I agree should be the focus, is the character's ability to fight.

 

(Edit: Also, since the Fighting pool was apparently intended for ATs like Controllers that lack any melee attacks and defense/resist powers that I can remember. I don't play Controllers, so my memory on the AT is hazy at best.)

Edited August 20, 2023 by Rudra

[OverkillEngine]

  On 8/20/2023 at 6:48 AM, Rudra said:

Not that I agree with you, because I don't, but what would you suggest for the Fighting pool that doesn't step on the Leadership pool, the Medicine pool, or any other pool? Especially since the theme of the Fighting pool, since that is what you are focused on, and I agree should be the focus, is the character's ability to fight.

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  On 8/18/2023 at 1:43 PM, OverkillEngine said:

Makes me kind of wish the Fighting pool had been split into two pools instead, Close Quarters Combat and Defensive Training. But it's a bit late for that, so best compromise that I could see is maybe swapping the position of Kick and Tough. And then doing a review of how Tough and Weave might need rebalanced if not being forced to waste a power pick makes it too easy for melee AT's to become immortal.

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Edit: At least this is the best I can think of offhand without also tossing out the cottage rule and doing something like turning one of Boxing or Kick into a passive or a click self buff, etc.

Edited August 20, 2023 by OverkillEngine

[Rudra]

Are you willing to lose half their bonus in order to be made more accessible?

[OverkillEngine]

  On 8/20/2023 at 6:56 AM, OverkillEngine said:

And then doing a review of how Tough and Weave might need rebalanced if not being forced to waste a power pick makes it too easy for melee AT's to become immortal.

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[honoroit]

  On 8/20/2023 at 7:46 AM, Rudra said:

Are you willing to lose half their bonus in order to be made more accessible?

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why would it half?  sounds arbitrary.

 

like some brigand on a bridge  telling you its dangerous to cross menacingly, while flashing a grin - and cleaning their teeth with a knife.

 

[Rudra]

  On 8/20/2023 at 7:54 AM, honoroit said:

 

why would it half?  sounds arbitrary.

 

like some brigand on a bridge  telling you its dangerous to cross menacingly, while flashing a grin - and cleaning their teeth with a knife.

 

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It's the difference between Weave and Hover/Combat Jumping.

[honoroit]

  On 8/20/2023 at 7:59 AM, Rudra said:

It's the difference between Weave and Hover/Combat Jumping.

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but one just needs to swap kick and punch for tough and weave, or allow tough and weave to be selected at their minimum level with 0 prereqs, or weave requiring 1 (i.e. tough)

 

you dont need to half this or that.

 

just go for the quality of life for the player, I say.

 

combat jumping costs almost NOTHING end wise to run  and improves movement.

 

hover provides knockback protection in the flip animation, shortening it, modifies movement, is affected like combat jumping by swift/hurdle, and so on.

 

stealth makes you unseen, costs more end, suppresses and on.

 

very differing powers.

 

tough/weave cost significant end, are narrow in what they resist/defend against, and are boring but necessary for survival padding in many builds.

Edited August 20, 2023 by honoroit

[Rudra]

  On 8/20/2023 at 8:13 AM, honoroit said:

 

but one just needs to swap kick and punch for tough and weave, or allow tough and weave to be selected at their minimum level with 0 prereqs, or weave requiring 1 (i.e. tough)

 

you dont need to half this or that.

 

just go for the quality of life for the player, I say.

 

combat jumping costs almost NOTHING end wise to run  and improves movement.

 

hover provides knockback protection in the flip animation, shortening it, modifies movement, is affected like combat jumping by swift/hurdle, and so on.

 

stealth makes you unseen, costs more end, suppresses and on.

 

very differing powers.

 

tough/weave cost significant end, are narrow in what they resist/defend against, and are boring but necessary for survival padding in many builds.

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If Tough is switched with Kick/Boxing, then it needs to be reduced to make up for no longer having a prereq. How much? Don't know.

 

Weave grants double the defense of Hover and Combat Jumping,  and it grants +48.44% immobilization resistance. As a power currently requiring two other picks to unlock.

 

Tough/Weave are not necessary for any build. At all. Every AT has its means of surviving the game. Without the Fighting pool. The fact that there are players that chase the Holy Quad does not make it necessary.

[JasperStone]

  On 8/20/2023 at 6:34 AM, OverkillEngine said:

I mean hell, I could bring up how Concealment: Your entry powers are a choice of a self toggle or an ally buff; both within the same theme but different roles/target. Or Medicine, a choice of an ally heal or a foe/ally applied debuff/buff, so while you are partially restricted in choice of target they are still a different role within the theme. Similar for Presence, you get a choice of a taunt or a placate. Different functions, same theme.
 

But I figured people could get the point without me being that exhaustive. Guess not.

Out of all the non APP/Epic pools, Fighting and Leadership are the odd men out. And Leadership's entry powers are good enough for it to not be an issue, on top of it potentially providing something that a character has none of in their primary and secondary - team buffs. And at least they are different buffs, instead of just the same buff with a choice of sprinkles. Every build has access to attacks with a secondary effect (otherwise they'd not be able to level solo). Fighting's entry powers are indistinct in function from each other.

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Thank you I was going to say the same thing.

And will add

No complaints about the Teleportation and how to get to Fold Space. 

 

Like @Rudra, I have stated that if Tough/Weave are moved their power level should reflect that.

Even proposed that if you want them at full power, you need both Tough and Weave, AND Punch or Kick

 

Why not do this to all pools?

Will the Incarnate skill tree be next? 

 

 

[Ghost]

  On 8/20/2023 at 1:14 PM, JasperStone said:

 

 

 

Why not do this to all pools?

Will the Incarnate skill tree be next? 

 

 

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Of course it will.

No one stops after getting what the want.  They want more and more and more.  It’s a never ending cycle.

 

 

[honoroit]

provably power creep adjendists / adventists.

 

kick punch are unbarred and useless.

 

its like if you HAD to take air superiority.

 

or how a tanker has to take a st taunt they wont use to get provoke.

 

just in the way.

 

dont think it equates in any way past doomsaying to incarnate trees, marerials involved, at all.

[OverkillEngine]

  On 8/20/2023 at 4:11 PM, honoroit said:

its like if you HAD to take air superiority.

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Granted Air Superiority is more useful than Punch or Kick. I'd never take any of them for their damage, which leaves how reliable the secondary effect is as the determining factor of usefulness.

But yeah, imagine if instead of Hover, we had something like Aerial Axe kick, with shit damage, and an unreliable secondary effect, and the only way to get Fly was to pick it or Air Superiority, even if both were effectively useless to your build.

That would suck major ass.

[arcane]

Just giving every character in the game with the fighting pool a free extra power pick is obviously a non-starter for anyone that cares about balance, difficulty, etc. I would personally be embarrassed to be caught asking for blanket freebie buffs all over the place but oh well. 
 

Here are a couple of ideas to buff Boxing and Kick instead. What if they both affected Tough and Weave like they do Cross Punch?

 

(1) Boxing grants one of the toggles mag 2 stun protection and the other toggle some modest stun resistance. So similar protection to stuns as Acrobatics grants for holds. Kick grants one of the toggles mag 4 KB protection and the other toggle some modest KB resistance. 
 

(2) Tough and Weave base values are cut in half, but having Boxing or Kick each doubles their value. So you get the same thing you get now with one power, or 1.5x what you get now with both powers. I would probably prefer this option as it’s less power creepy - technically only a buff if you pursue both Boxing and Kick.

 

Both would be plain and simple buffs to the Fighting pool, but neither would just flat out give everyone free power picks like the “buff me!” junkies want. Which is what I hope like hell we can avoid.

Edited August 20, 2023 by arcane

[Akisan]

  On 8/20/2023 at 5:06 PM, arcane said:

Just giving every character in the game with the fighting pool a free extra power pick is obviously a non-starter for anyone that cares about balance, difficulty, etc. I would personally be embarrassed to be caught asking for blanket freebie buffs all over the place but oh well. 
 

Here are a couple of ideas to buff Boxing and Kick instead. What if they both affected Tough and Weave like they do Cross Punch?

 

(1) Boxing grants one of the toggles mag 2 stun protection and the other toggle some modest stun resistance. So similar protection to stuns as Acrobatics grants for holds. Kick grants one of the toggles mag 4 KB protection and the other toggle some modest KB resistance. 
 

(2) Tough and Weave base values are cut in half, but having Boxing or Kick each doubles their value. So you get the same thing you get now with one power, or 1.5x what you get now with both powers. I would probably prefer this option as it’s less power creepy - technically only a buff if you pursue both Boxing and Kick.

 

Both would be plain and simple buffs to the Fighting pool, but neither would just flat out give everyone free power picks like the “buff me!” junkies want. Which is what I hope like hell we can avoid.

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Can I vote for option 1 please?  It drives me nuts that Stun is the *only* hard CC I can't get any permanent protection against as a squishy. (I'd also be okay with both options being applied - even if the base value on the toggles drops to 40%)

[OverkillEngine]

  On 8/20/2023 at 5:06 PM, arcane said:

 

Both would be plain and simple buffs to the Fighting pool, but neither would just flat out give everyone free power picks like the “buff me!” junkies want. Which is what I hope like hell we can avoid.

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I mean I can think up ideas that fix the issue with Boxing and Kick being suckass tax powers, And the original design of the Fighting Pool being based on assumptions that are not true in practice, but that requires being given free reign to violate the cottage rule that sometimes gets treated like a  sacred cow past all common sense. Swapping the progression for Tough with either Boxing or Kick was just a cheap way of sidestepping both those.

My preference would be to actually fix them. But again, that requires being given free reign to do things some grognards are going to be reflexively contrarian about for contrariness's sake.

Edited August 21, 2023 by OverkillEngine

[Chance Jackson]

  On 8/20/2023 at 7:59 AM, Rudra said:

It's the difference between Weave and Hover/Combat Jumping.

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Hover & CJ do more than boost defense & they have a lower endurance cost slow, controlled fly vs great jump control, jump height boost & iirc protection or res to the only status effect whose name escapes me rn

 

There is absolutely no reason weave's def would need to be nerfed even if the pre reqs were gone

[Chance Jackson]

  On 8/20/2023 at 5:06 PM, arcane said:

Just giving every character in the game with the fighting pool a free extra power pick is obviously a non-starter for anyone that cares about balance, difficulty, etc. I would personally be embarrassed to be caught asking for blanket freebie buffs all over the place but oh well. 
 

Here are a couple of ideas to buff Boxing and Kick instead. What if they both affected Tough and Weave like they do Cross Punch?

 

(1) Boxing grants one of the toggles mag 2 stun protection and the other toggle some modest stun resistance. So similar protection to stuns as Acrobatics grants for holds. Kick grants one of the toggles mag 4 KB protection and the other toggle some modest KB resistance. 
 

(2) Tough and Weave base values are cut in half, but having Boxing or Kick each doubles their value. So you get the same thing you get now with one power, or 1.5x what you get now with both powers. I would probably prefer this option as it’s less power creepy - technically only a buff if you pursue both Boxing and Kick.

 

Both would be plain and simple buffs to the Fighting pool, but neither would just flat out give everyone free power picks like the “buff me!” junkies want. Which is what I hope like hell we can avoid.

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I don't hate it, but the tax powers are still tax powers, it's just the taxed powers are better if you pay more taxes

[Rudra]

  On 8/21/2023 at 3:20 AM, Chance Jackson said:

Hover & CJ do more than boost defense & they have a lower endurance cost slow, controlled fly vs great jump control, jump height boost & iirc protection or res to the only status effect whose name escapes me rn

 

There is absolutely no reason weave's def would need to be nerfed even if the pre reqs were gone

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Hover grants very slow fly and +1.75% defense at 0.195 END/sec.

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=pool.flight.combat_flight&at=blaster

(The very slow fly was the price we paid for having such great flight controls with the power. Then we were made able to use both Fly and Hover to enjoy the benefits of both at the same time which really boosted the utility of Hover. I personally think that was a mistake, but here we are. And players enjoy it, so all I can do is throw my hands up and use the powers combined as well. At least you still have to have both powers to enjoy those benefits.)

 

Combat Jumping grants improved jumping ability, Mag 8.3 immobilization protection, and +1.75% defense at 0.065 END/sec.

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=pool.leaping.combat_jumping&at=blaster

(It's a bit overpowered for its cost, in my opinion. Especially since I keep hearing other players being told to take Combat Jumping because it is basically free defense. [Hello, Holy Quad.] Even when I listen to Broadcast or Help and I see chat about a player contemplating taking Hover, and is immediately pounced upon to instead take Combat Jumping because it is so exceedingly cheap to use. That's just me though.)

 

Weave grants +48.44% immobilization resistance and +3.5% defense at 0.325 END/sec.

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=pool.fighting.weave&at=blaster

 

That extra 0.125 END/sec for another +1.75% defense? Is nothing at all. (Especially considering how easy it is to make a character that can run 9 (10?) toggles at once, including both Fighting pool toggles, all three Leadership pool toggles, Combat Jumping, Hover, and all the armors available to Scrappers, Stalkers, Tankers, and Brutes; while still being able to maintain a constant barrage of attacks, without even dipping into any incarnate abilities at all. [I can say this because I've built multiple such characters. God mode anyone?])

 

And that doesn't address Tough which would also need to be nerfed since it would be losing its prerequisite too.

 

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to remove the 7 form 3.5.