Non-Stone Meat Shield

[00Troy00]

I'm thinking Inv/Staff (Resistance+defence).  I'm not concerned about DPS and just want to soak the agro and take the hits others can't

 

Thoughts?

 

 

[SwitchFade]

If you plan on min/maxing, invuln doesn't rely on its secondary for any mitigation. You can hit, with one stack of the resistance proc from the ATO, nearly 90% to all resists. With just 3 foes in range you hit over soft cap defense to most types, with 5 foes, 45+ defenses to most types.

 

You can really pick any secondary you want.

 

Edit: typo 

Edited August 25, 2023 by SwitchFade

[tidge]

I pretty much agree with @SwitchFade. Invulnerability (all by itself) goes pretty far. Power pools are useful for 'turning it up'.

 

If the focus is on being a 'meat shield', i think the secondary comes in by making sure you are getting the attention of as many mobs as possible... via Taunting and hitting (accurately and repeatedly)..

[Zect]

I'm going to posit an unconventional answer for the best meat shield. You ready? It is...

 

Shield.

 

I find that when such questions come up, a lot of the focus seems to be on surviving damage (and surviving only through mitigation, ignoring other tools). However, the meta in 2023 is a fast-paced teaming environment where aoe's are common, fighting above the aggro cap occurs frequently, most tank armor sets operate near mitigation caps, and debuffs, not raw damage, are what typically kills tankers. Actually protecting the team in such circumstances involves much more than just optimizing for maximum EHP.

 

Shield protects teammates with grant cover, and quickly kills minions with its powerful shield charge to reduce the number of enemies below the aggro cap. Shield using the Defense Chain Concept and cycling melee core > rune > owts on a 4 min cycle can achieve defense softcap and resistance hardcap, with superior DDR and only 600-700 less maxHP than an invuln tank. Unlike invuln, it also doesn't lose defense when forced to kite against the hardest hitting foes in game and has superior mobility to get where a tank is necessary. A shield/DM/soul combining self-heals with defender-strength debuff toggles and 22.5ft radius ranged aoe taunts that do damage (dark oblit) is an absolute tanking monster.

[honoroit]

my main tank is shield/stone/earth.

it does well.

 

shield hero Figs

[nihilii]

I'll second the Shield/DM suggestion for many of the same reasons, although I don't think epic AOEs get the Tanker radius buff (hardly a concern either way). Shield/DM is an absolute powerhouse of survivability if you build for it. Especially if you stack Barrier on all the other goodies, something /DM is uniquely positioned to do thanks to getting heals and endurance management in the secondary. Darkest Night + Barrier + Grant Cover + Maneuvers is an absurd amount of mitigation to grant your teammates as a Tanker.

Inv/Staff is a great pick in any case, if that's what you wanted to go with.

[tidge]

1 hour ago, Zect said:

I'm going to posit an unconventional answer for the best meat shield. You ready? It is...

 

Shield.

 

I have a Shield Defense Tanker (and love how it plays, and don't have any disagreements with the assessment), but it isn't as good a 'meat shield' across all content as my Invulnerability Tanker. As noted, I think it is the difference in max Health/HP/Healing (in addition to the spectrum of resistances) that gives the edge to Invulnerability. Pretty much all Tanker primaries can be made really Tuff (see also Bio).

 

The main difference I see in my play style between Invulnerability and Shield Defense is that I have to play my Shield Defense (/Battle Axe) Tanker such that I am having to pay a LOT more attention to the positioning of both enemy mobs and teammates... which leads to more of what I suppose could be called 'kiting' with the Shield Tanker, but otherwise I don't consider 'kiting' to be a Tanker play style. The Tank ought to be able to toss a Taunt at any group at a distance they would engage with (modulo range and direct lines-of-sight for BAMF). I don't mean to imply that I slack when I play the Invulnerability Tanker... it is more that it feels like it is easier to 'sweep and keep' enemy aggro easier with it.

[nihilii]

"across all content" is incidentally perhaps the best argument for Invul/Staff. At lvl 10 (exemplared so functional lvl 15), with Guarded Spin, Temp Invul / RPD / Unyielding, and Dull Pain? You're looking pretty tough for the opposition.

 

Shield/DM is no slouch either even in those teens, but Invul/Staff will already be an impenetrable wall against S/L.

[ZemX]

11 hours ago, 00Troy00 said:

I'm thinking Inv/Staff (Resistance+defence).  I'm not concerned about DPS and just want to soak the agro and take the hits others can't

 

I've done Rad/Staff and loved it.  Super tough.   I've wanted to try Staff with a defense set but haven't really been able to get into Invuln or SR.  I chose to try SR but... it's just dull.  And I'd expect Invuln to be the same.  Tough as all hell, but that's about it.  RadA kind of spoiled me with its extra goodies like Ground Zero and Rad Therapy, both of which are excellent for grabbing aggro and helping the team.   GZ does some healing and slotted with Avalanche KD proc knocks stuff down across a wide area just like Shield Charge does.   It's a great combo for turning around a sudden "oh crap!" situation like getting an ambush from the rear or aggroing a second spawn.  You simultaneously knock everything down and give a small jolt of healing and then healing-over-time to affected teammates.

 

A word about the idea that a primary doesn't need Staff's extra mitigation though:  Thbbbbt! 🤪

 

Builds are a zero sum game.  If you are getting +13% res(all) from Sky Splitter's finisher than that's 13% res you don't need to get from IOs, which means you can build more of something else.  Typically, it means not sweating the more exotic res types.  Or... it can be used to negate most resistance debuffs by pushing you over 100%.  At times when you aren't so hard pressed, you can simply spend stacks on the PBAoE finisher instead and drop a -10% res debuff on everything it hits.  The other stances offer some different bonuses but personally I leave it on Form of Body and then forget I even have the ability to change stances.  It's that good.

 

Staff's big downside is the long animations.  Like most sets with long animations, it was never balanced to make up for that loss of DPA.  But you said damage wasn't your #1, so that's probably okay.   It's definitely a lot more aesthetically pleasing now that redraw animations have been taken care of.  It was especially annoying when you had to redraw all the time with a more active primary armor set like Rad.  Staff's large AoEs, made even larger on Tankers, are also very nice for getting and keep aggro.   15ft radius on the PBAoE and 9ft+135degrees on the cones.

 

Speaking of those AoEs, the Rad/Staff Tanker does this:

- 15ft radius, 16 target PBAoE

- 2x 9ft radius 135 degree 10 target cones

- 30ft radius 10 target proc nuke +heal/+end

- 22.5ft radius 30 target (not a typo!) proc nuke + team heal

- standard 12ft radius taunt aura that can be slotted for -res Achilles proc

- standard 22.5ft radius 70ft range 5 target taunt +range debuff

 

You would not lack for aggro-grabbing abilities if tanking is what you want to do.

[Zect]

4 hours ago, tidge said:

 

I have a Shield Defense Tanker (and love how it plays, and don't have any disagreements with the assessment), but it isn't as good a 'meat shield' across all content as my Invulnerability Tanker. As noted, I think it is the difference in max Health/HP/Healing (in addition to the spectrum of resistances) that gives the edge to Invulnerability. Pretty much all Tanker primaries can be made really Tuff (see also Bio).

 

Obviously, YMMV on this kind of thing and there is content in which each powerset shines. However, what I'm trying to convey to OP with my post is that being a 'meat shield' in the sense of a player who protects other players involves more than just survivability and taunts, even those are an important part of the kit.

 

Often, people like OP come along and ask "I want to do zero dps while being completely unkillable. How?!" My facetious answer is, phase shift - does exactly what they ask for. Perhaps ice armor (for hibernate) + concealment is the real turtling meta?

[Neiska]

I can +1 to Shield/Dark Melee, or even Shield/Rad Melee both being quite good. Both have strong DEF and debuff resists, help out the team both with Cover and have self-healing. Both secondary's pair wonderfully with Shield even into incarnate levels.

 

But I personally have found Bio Armor to be quite strong as well. Other sets will certainly shine in some circumstances, and Bio rarely places first in any situation, but often places very high in many. And has tools that some other sets don't, namely stacking regen and absorb, with respectable levels of other layers of defenses. So it doesn't rely on any single thing. Which mean's it's flexible. Personal preference and tastes applies of course, but so far my best results were with Bio Armor, focusing on Recharge, especially when using Melee Hybrid and Rune of Power to shore up the sets lack of other features.

 

This is often so good together that most often I end up slotting DNA siphon for END, not for heals. Essentially I focus on Juggling both Parasite Aura and Carapace (Often Carapace first on the pull to dampen alpha hits), and then juggling Melee Hybrid and Rune of Protection. All for rolling effects together are absolutely fantastic, and this isn't even using DNA to clutch-heal or relying on your Destiny slot. Often this is so fantastic that I don't even have to change out of Offensive Mode, even as a tanker. But it will be awhile before you reach this point.

 

The downsides about Bio is, is that until you hit a certain point of recharge, it feels more like a moped than a tank. You will rely on just Carapace at first, then DNA to help manage damage. But once you hit that certain point of recharge where you can keep rolling the next buff as the last one wears off you can become quite powerful. Another downside to Bio Armor while it uses multiple tools, they often depend on a stacking buff that is dependent on how many targets are hit. Which means against single targets your buffs are not as potent. Another downside for some people are the visuals. Yes, you can turn them down to minimum VFX but some still don't like it, even then.

 

Your experience may vary of course. But for me, Bio is a solid win. It may not have the flat out DEF or RES that other sets have, but it can absorb and heal so much more than the others that its lower DEF and RES is a moot point.

 

But I would like to point out that perhaps the most important part of builds isn't numbers at all, but wither you personally enjoy it. If you have to "force" yourself to play a certain AT or powerset then what's the point? I have seen people take powers or sets that conventional wisdom said was bad and do some amazing things. And taking the current meta won't magically make you auto-stomp everything you encounter either. It helps, certainly. But player skill and game knowledge plays into the equation just as much.

 

So if you like your Invulnerable tanker, then stick with it. Or if you want to try something new, like a Shield or Bio Armor then I say go for it. Each armor set definitely has a different "feel" to it. Some you may like. Some you may dislike. Regardless of the math. Others you might absolutely fall in love with, even if its just a matter of keeping the same primary power, but trying it with a different secondary. That alone can also make quite a bit of difference. 

 

Hope this helps!

[Mezmera]

I'd have to agree that Shield would be the most versatile of the potential 'meat shield' tanks due to its ability to easily hit high positional defenses without having to rely on being surrounded by enemies to achieve it along with having high DDR to pair with it so that you're not all of a sudden getting spiked.  Then you can build for high resistances, not as easily achieved as Invuln I agree, but I have my tank set for base +50% resists across the board (including psi) before we go factoring in the tanker resist procs, OWtS or Melee Core. 

 

As for the difference in hp it's not really all that much if you know to build for it and Shields always maintains a high amount, I have my tanks hp at 3200 and if I use OWtS I'm up to 3500.  Dull Pain is nice more so for the healing aspect which Shield not having a heal is somewhat of a liability unless you know to cover it by taking something like Unrelenting or looking to slot those absorb procs from the tank and hold sets (which if placed in powers with a good proc rate the absorbs become quasi heals).  About the only other negative about Shield is the lack of an endurance debuff protection which having high defenses should kind of alleviate some of that, and if something does get through you can target powers that help with end recovery from the pools. 

 

Shield Charge is an awesome weapon to have in your armor that helps with clearing ads, catching extra aggro, and providing nice movement possibilities.  Then Grant Cover like has been pointed out is an awesome team protection power. 

 

If you have a good team built the more offensive powersets like Bio do provide better value but in my opinion Shield does bring the best versatility to the team if you need more of a 'meat shield' while protecting the team and helping clear ads and catch max aggro.   

[ZemX]

2 hours ago, Zect said:

Often, people like OP come along and ask "I want to do zero dps while being completely unkillable. How?!" My facetious answer is, phase shift - does exactly what they ask for. Perhaps ice armor (for hibernate) + concealment is the real turtling meta?

 

Pretty sure I teamed with someone like this once.  Level 50 Ice tanker with literally one attack from the secondary.  They'd hover around just... BEING.   I am sure, without even asking, that they considered themselves a "pure" tanker.

 

I don't assume people are going quite to that extreme in most cases.  When someone says they aren't concerned with DPS, I assume they still want to deal damage... just that they don't particularly care if someone else is dealing 10% more with a different build or powerset.

[biostem]

17 hours ago, 00Troy00 said:

I'm thinking Inv/Staff (Resistance+defence).  I'm not concerned about DPS and just want to soak the agro and take the hits others can't

 

Thoughts?

I really like radiation armor, particularly for particle shielding, which provides absorption, additional regeneration, and a hefty, (though unenhanceable), recovery bonus.  You can make it permanent, so just leave it on autofire and you're good to go.  

[Thraxen]

Ice/spines. They slowed and won’t hit you. 

[Neiska]

48 minutes ago, Thraxen said:

Ice/spines. They slowed and won’t hit you. 

 

Huh... I didn't think of that one. Stacking -SPD? Just how far can you push that I wonder? First time I have heard of that particular focus in a build. Very nice! Might have to give that one a try.

[Thraxen]

Oh you can get crazy with it. There is an alpha that boosts it too. 

[Neiska]

1 hour ago, Thraxen said:

Oh you can get crazy with it. There is an alpha that boosts it too. 

 

Well now I'm just tempted!

 

PS - Spiritual Radial I'm assuming?

Edited August 27, 2023 by Neiska
Added a PS

[DarknessEternal]

Shield can be nearly capped to all resistances and capped to all defenses at all times.

 

I say nearly because I can't figure out how to get the last 13% out of energy/neg/psi resist.

 

I have a tough time imagining the content where that isn't good enough.

[00Troy00]

On 8/25/2023 at 7:28 AM, ZemX said:

 

I've done Rad/Staff and loved it.  Super tough.   I've wanted to try Staff with a defense set but haven't really been able to get into Invuln or SR.  I chose to try SR but... it's just dull.  And I'd expect Invuln to be the same.  Tough as all hell, but that's about it.  RadA kind of spoiled me with its extra goodies like Ground Zero and Rad Therapy, both of which are excellent for grabbing aggro and helping the team.   GZ does some healing and slotted with Avalanche KD proc knocks stuff down across a wide area just like Shield Charge does.   It's a great combo for turning around a sudden "oh crap!" situation like getting an ambush from the rear or aggroing a second spawn.  You simultaneously knock everything down and give a small jolt of healing and then healing-over-time to affected teammates.

 

A word about the idea that a primary doesn't need Staff's extra mitigation though:  Thbbbbt! 🤪

 

Builds are a zero sum game.  If you are getting +13% res(all) from Sky Splitter's finisher than that's 13% res you don't need to get from IOs, which means you can build more of something else.  Typically, it means not sweating the more exotic res types.  Or... it can be used to negate most resistance debuffs by pushing you over 100%.  At times when you aren't so hard pressed, you can simply spend stacks on the PBAoE finisher instead and drop a -10% res debuff on everything it hits.  The other stances offer some different bonuses but personally I leave it on Form of Body and then forget I even have the ability to change stances.  It's that good.

 

Staff's big downside is the long animations.  Like most sets with long animations, it was never balanced to make up for that loss of DPA.  But you said damage wasn't your #1, so that's probably okay.   It's definitely a lot more aesthetically pleasing now that redraw animations have been taken care of.  It was especially annoying when you had to redraw all the time with a more active primary armor set like Rad.  Staff's large AoEs, made even larger on Tankers, are also very nice for getting and keep aggro.   15ft radius on the PBAoE and 9ft+135degrees on the cones.

 

Speaking of those AoEs, the Rad/Staff Tanker does this:

- 15ft radius, 16 target PBAoE

- 2x 9ft radius 135 degree 10 target cones

- 30ft radius 10 target proc nuke +heal/+end

- 22.5ft radius 30 target (not a typo!) proc nuke + team heal

- standard 12ft radius taunt aura that can be slotted for -res Achilles proc

- standard 22.5ft radius 70ft range 5 target taunt +range debuff

 

You would not lack for aggro-grabbing abilities if tanking is what you want to do.

Hmmm...how do you think Inv/Staff would play?

[ZemX]

9 hours ago, 00Troy00 said:

Hmmm...how do you think Inv/Staff would play?

 

Should be a decent combo.  Staff has a lot of good AoE potential, which is nice because Invuln doesn't add anything to that.  What I was looking forward to with SR (and same for Invuln) was having enough defense to maybe skip Focused Accuracy, which I never fail to take on Rad because everything hits me, including a lot of toHit debuffs.  So I haven't given much thought yet to what other patron/epic pools might go good with that combo.

[Heatstroke]

On 8/26/2023 at 10:27 PM, Thraxen said:

Ice/spines. They slowed and won’t hit you. 

Nice.. someone else mentioned this.. 
 

My Ice/Spines...

59% S/L Defense, 51% N/E. And if you use Energy Absorption against just one foe, that goes the 66% and 59%

 

Chilling Embrace is a great taunt Aura, because it adds -Rech, -Spd and -Dmg.

 

And  ALL Your Spine attacks of but especially the AoEs  Ripper, Throw Spines, Spine Burst and Quills all have -Spd and -Rech

 

Also with enough recharge, HoarFrost which is a Dull Pain Clone becomes Perma. 

And you still have Hibernate in your back pocket. Hibernate last for 30 seconds and heals and makes you immune to attack (but you cant attack either).
 Hibernate on my guy recharges in 40 seconds.. so there isnt too much that could kill me in ten seconds.. 

AND You can still T4 Barrier which makes it basically perma.. 

And two Damage Aura also helps keep aggro...