Updated Tier list?

[Xandyr]

Hi all!

 It's been a while since Bots, Ninjas,Mercs, and Necro were buffed. Has anyone "tested" or updated a "tier" list?

 Through my own (limited) playing, I would probably have to say that either Necro or Mercs lead in overall damage/utility.

 

 What say you?

[Warlawk]

I've not done any extensive or scientific testing by any mean, but my impressions from casually playing...

Necro feels top shelf now. Fun to play, engaging and the performance seems excellent. Necro/Elec, fresh character leveled to 50 yesterday, no incarnates yet.

 

Mercs feels much better than it used to be, but I would still place it mid range on performance. Still outclassed by Thugs, Demons and Necro. Mercs/Time Level 40.

 

Bots feels nerfed. I don't even specifically mean the -regen getting split up and moved to personal attacks, just in general the performance feels worse than it used to be for solo mission play. I haven't respecced as I don't need the maintenance drone on a bots/time at level 50.

 

I haven't really played my Ninjas/Time since the rework at all. I did a new build for it and it's on my short list, I just haven't gotten to it yet.

 

Just rough ratings based on how they feel to play I would put

Demons

Thugs, Necro

Mercs, Ninjas, Bots

.

..

...

....

.....

Beast Mastery.

[Hedgefund]

I've spent some quality time with Ninjas, Necro and Mercs since the changes.  By quality time I mean grinding from the tutorial to all T4d.  Unfortunately I had just "finished" a bots MM when the changes went live so they're at the back of the queue and I won't get to have such quality time.

 

I don't think you can make an absolute "tier list" of primaries, some primaries interact with some secondaries better or worse than others.

 

I've done NO empirical comparisons, so I'm going to answer with what I "feel like".

 

Ninjas - ST killers deluxe.  Again, no stopwatch but AV fights seem shorter with new ninjas than any other primary.  Being 83% melee has its downsides though.  I just fought Envoy of Shadow and his dmg aura was nasty, I had to make everyone go-to just outside the damage effect.  Still defeated him but not with sword crits.  Having Kuji-In Sha (self heal) added was huge for their survivability.  

 

Necro - what I'm currently playing.  I quite like it, player attacks create additional entities to spread out aggro and if you really want to spread out aggro there's Soul Extraction.  Will clear out a /8 spawn faster than ninja (probably) but won't kill an AV faster.

 

Mercs - Before the change I remember fighting an AV or 2 and it was just a slog.  Not so with new mercs, it was "reasonable"  Decent aoe, VERY well mannered, they were significantly improved.  

 

My current little project is to pair all the primaries with Cold.  I've done all the primaries multiple times across various secondaries but for now I'm focusing on Cold.  I've done all but Beasts at this point.  I bring this up to say here's my tier list and it's for (variable primary)/Cold.  Might be a different ranking for TA, or Time, or... you get the idea.

 

S - nobody.  I'd reserve this for AV/GM hunting + /8 room clearing while being easy to manage and nothing checks all those boxes.

A - Ninjas, Necro

B - Merc, Demon, Thugs

C - Bots (I don't have a LOT of hands-on experience post update, VERY close to B, I arguably moved them to C just to have someone in this tier).

D - nobody

E  - Beasts* (I haven't combined with Cold yet, this is speculation from prior experience with Beasts though (2 T4d 50s)

F - nobody

[honoroit]

necro/kin is quite mental, the soul extractions can be fulcrum'd and soeed boosted.

[Xandyr]

34 minutes ago, Hedgefund said:

 

 

I don't think you can make an absolute "tier list" of primaries, some primaries interact with some secondaries better or worse than others.

 

 

QFT

 

I've been playing the following:

Mercs/Nat

Mercs/Pain

 

Necro/Pain

Necro/Nat

Necro/FF

 

Nin/Sonic

 

 With Mercs, they are very "well behaved". They stay in your back pocket per se, which makes Secondaries like Pain,Elec,Nat, etc even better. The damage is improved, and of course, they are kings at debuffing defenses. Serum was a great revamp.

 

Necro is, I think, just awesome now. They were good before, but with the changes, they're top notch. I loved my necro/ff. Since they can heal themselves, and do so fairly regularly, it helps them out tremendously. Slotting Uniques in Dark Empowerment will affect the pets when they heal themselves, so they should fire often. The damage Aura on the Grave Knights is so nice. I think Pain is now my favorite set to pair it with (so far...haven't done them all). Nature, as usual, is a strong set and pairs with about everything. I had an old Necro/Elec that I need to dust off and respec and give it a whirl.

 

I never really played Ninjas. But I rolled it with /Sonic. With their high defenses, ability to heal themselves, and with the +Resist from /Sonic, it actually makes a great pairing. I smiled like a lunatic every time they Crit, which is OFTEN. EXCELLENT single target damage. May need to branch out and see what else I should run it with..../Time maybe? Or Dark? Hmm.

 

I'm thankful that the volunteers we have took the time to address the needs/wants/shortcomings of some of the MM pets. I wonder what they have in store for the others (especially Beasts, IF they are planning anything).

 It's been forEVER since I played Thugs,Demons,or Bots, so I can't really comment on how I personally would rank them. But, I will say that I am really enjoying Necro and Mercs. Need to play more with the Ninjas to find that "sweet spot" on them.

[Xandyr]

48 minutes ago, Hedgefund said:

 

 

S - nobody.  I'd reserve this for AV/GM hunting + /8 room clearing while being easy to manage and nothing checks all those boxes.

A - Ninjas, Necro

B - Merc, Demon, Thugs

C - Bots (I don't have a LOT of hands-on experience post update, VERY close to B, I arguably moved them to C just to have someone in this tier).

D - nobody

E  - Beasts* (I haven't combined with Cold yet, this is speculation from prior experience with Beasts though (2 T4d 50s)

F - nobody

I would say I agree with this (from what I remember of all the primaries). Cold is a good set, and it should pair very well with Beasts. These poor pets just need some loving. Like a revamp of their powers/cooldowns/activations for one.

[Gobbledigook]

17 hours ago, Xandyr said:

I would say I agree with this (from what I remember of all the primaries). Cold is a good set, and it should pair very well with Beasts. These poor pets just need some loving. Like a revamp of their powers/cooldowns/activations for one.

I made a Beasts/cold MM. It was better than i thought as i had never tried Beasts before and heard bad things. /Cold helped a lot probably.

 

What i did like about beasts is how fast they were compared to some of the other pets. I am always waiting for my Mercs/FF to catch up running. All the pets should run fast out of combat.

 

These Beasts could really do with some pampering and grooming to really make their coats shine though lol.

[StrikerFox]

Tried out the primaries I already had set up from previous testing on Beta. Mercs and Necro. Musculature Radial Alpha, Degenerative Radial Interface, and Assault Radial Hybrid (Off). All pets had the Leadership buffs. All pets slotted several damage procs:

 

Mercs:
Soldiers: Shield Breaker, Lady Grey, Soulbound
Spec-Ops: Achilles', Shield Breaker, Lady Grey
Commando: Explosive Strike, Shield Breaker, Lady Grey
Serum had a 10s downtime.
No MM attacks used.

 

2023-09-11 11:07:27 [NPC] Commando: Time for a little wet work.
2023-09-11 11:09:00 You have defeated Rikti Pylon

 

1m33s/93s = 540dps

 

Necro:
Zombies: Cloud Senses
Grave K: Achilles', Shield Breaker, Lady Grey, Soulbound
Lich: Cloud Senses, Trap of the Hunter, Ghost Widow's Embrace
Soul Extraction: Cloud Senses, Unbreakable Constraint
Soul Extraction had an 12s downtime
No MM attacks used.

 

2023-09-11 11:33:09 [NPC] Lich: Time for carnage!
2023-09-11 11:34:26 You have defeated Rikti Pylon

 

1m17s/77s = 626dps

 

Dps will bump up higher with personal MM attacks. From the damage they do, and the buffs provided to Mercs and Spectral Minions from Necro. Damage would be through the roof if Fulcrum Shift, Overgrowth, Tar Patch, Acid Mortar, Slowed Response etc are used. Any additional +dam buff or -res debuffs.

 

Log attached if anyone wants to see it.

 

 

chatlog 2023-09-11.txt

[StrikerFox]

For gits and shiggles, did another round. Same slotting/incarnates as the previous post, except this time used Tar Patch. Also used Dark Blast and Life Drain for Necro. The builds do not have Gloom or any of the Merc MM attacks.

 

Mercs:

2023-09-11 19:41:20 [NPC] Commando: He's dog meat.
2023-09-11 19:42:29 You have defeated Rikti Pylon

 

1m9s/69s = 684dps. In 69s, damage procs triggered 141 times. Average of 2 procs every second!

 

Necro:
2023-09-11 19:28:41 [NPC] Lich: Once I finish Rikti Pylon, I may just come after you, NecroGKTest.
2023-09-11 19:29:43 You have defeated Rikti Pylon

 

1m2s/62s = 746dps. In 62s, damage procs triggered 86 times.

 

Also these builds are not fully IO'd. They are pet test builds, most of the secondary powers are not slotted except for Darkest Night and Twilight Grasp. Could probably tighten up the T7 cooldown, add the other MM attacks. Maybe an alternate secondary. I think Sleet, Slowed Response, Freezing Rain, Acid Mortar etc all provide a higher -res debuff than Tar Patch. Both Mercs and Necro can probably get sub-60sec pylon times.

 

Also I tossed Ghost Widow and Trap of the Hunter procs into Lich because I could fit them for testing. They're not really worth it. Between both Necro runs, GW activated 7 times; TotH activated once.

 

chatlog 2023-09-11.txt

[StrikerFox]

Ninjas with the same method (Hover/Provoke/D.Night/Leadership) and incarnates as previous posts. Three MM attacks, Tar Patch and Smoke Flash used constantly.

 

2023-09-12 21:29:36 [NPC] Oni: Attacking Rikti Pylon.
2023-09-12 21:30:47 You have defeated Rikti Pylon

 

1m11s/71s = 668dps. 65 total crits.

 

Procs:
Genin: Explosive Strike, Soulbound
Jounin: Achilles', Shield Breaker, Lady Grey
Oni: Unbreakable Constraint, Trap of the Hunter

 

Explosive Strike, Unbreakable and Trap are not very good.

 

Improvement from pre-i27.5 seem pretty minimal damage-wise. Runs I did 3 years ago had Ninjas at 1m24s/84s/584dps. That was without personal MM attacks and without pet's passive +crit chance. The pets did not get hit at all so they did not heal. The Smoke Flash change feels like a nerf. It's only real advantage over it's previous iteration is the end cost saved.

 

Log attached if anyone wants to see it. First 3 runs are messed up. First run I died. Second run I set pets to aggressive-stay so they were to far to use melee attacks. Third run I forgot to upgrade the pets.

 

chatlog 2023-09-12.txt

[Gobbledigook]

If fun factor is considered in the tier list then for me Beasts would be top. I don't know why but this is the first MM i am really having fun with. Watching the beasts charge in, knock a few mobs down and crit a few is quite fun lol.

 

 

[WumpusRat]

1 hour ago, Gobbledigook said:

If fun factor is considered in the tier list then for me Beasts would be top. I don't know why but this is the first MM i am really having fun with. Watching the beasts charge in, knock a few mobs down and crit a few is quite fun lol.

 

Beast Mastery isn't a bad set, overall. None of the Mastermind sets are "bad". BM is just the bottom of the pile in terms of effectiveness and mechanics for the pets.

It's like being offered a bunch of food you like, and going "Well, this is my least favorite out of all the things I really like, but I still really like it."

 

The biggest drawback is that Fortify Pack punishes you for using it. The pets gain damage and crit percentage based on how many stacks of Pack Mentality they have, and if you ever pop FP, it burns all those stacks and converts it into defense. Which wouldn't necessarily be bad, other than the fact that while FP is running, they can neither gain nor benefit from Pack Mentality. So they lose about 20% damage and crit chance, which is a HUGE blow to their damage output. 

 

Stat-wise, the animals are very solid. Decent resists, and defense on top of it. There's an issue with their attack chains though, in that there's a "dead zone" at the end of each attack animation which causes them to pause and do nothing for a second or two between attacks. Some of their cooldowns need looking at, as well. Lick Wounds has a 60s cooldown, and is a relatively small heal (around 100 hp), so it definitely shouldn't be on such a long cooldown for such a weak ability. Same with the Lioness +def roar, which lasts for something like 10-15 seconds, and has a 120s cooldown.

 

I'm curious to see what the devs do with the overhaul of BM (as well as Thugs and Demons) when they eventually get around to it, the same way they did the other sets back in October of last year.

Edited September 15, 2023 by WumpusRat

[You]

On 9/12/2023 at 11:48 AM, StrikerFox said:

For gits and shiggles, did another round. Same slotting/incarnates as the previous post, except this time used Tar Patch. Also used Dark Blast and Life Drain for Necro. The builds do not have Gloom or any of the Merc MM attacks.

 

Mercs:

2023-09-11 19:41:20 [NPC] Commando: He's dog meat.
2023-09-11 19:42:29 You have defeated Rikti Pylon

 

1m9s/69s = 684dps. In 69s, damage procs triggered 141 times. Average of 2 procs every second!

 

Necro:
2023-09-11 19:28:41 [NPC] Lich: Once I finish Rikti Pylon, I may just come after you, NecroGKTest.
2023-09-11 19:29:43 You have defeated Rikti Pylon

 

1m2s/62s = 746dps. In 62s, damage procs triggered 86 times.

 

Also these builds are not fully IO'd. They are pet test builds, most of the secondary powers are not slotted except for Darkest Night and Twilight Grasp. Could probably tighten up the T7 cooldown, add the other MM attacks. Maybe an alternate secondary. I think Sleet, Slowed Response, Freezing Rain, Acid Mortar etc all provide a higher -res debuff than Tar Patch. Both Mercs and Necro can probably get sub-60sec pylon times.

 

Also I tossed Ghost Widow and Trap of the Hunter procs into Lich because I could fit them for testing. They're not really worth it. Between both Necro runs, GW activated 7 times; TotH activated once.

 

chatlog 2023-09-11.txt 960.11 kB · 13 downloads

 

I have:

Lady G and Archilles' in GK.

SB BU and Cloud Senses in SE.

Could Senses in Lich.

 

Still debating whether to proc personal attacks.  Does anyone know if that temp pet proc well?

 

 

 

 

 

[tidge]

5 hours ago, You said:

Still debating whether to proc personal attacks.  Does anyone know if that temp pet proc well?

 

Generally, for MMs, I find there are competing considerations about %damage in personal (primary) attacks.

• The MM damage scale is terrible, so %damage will boost damage of individual attacks
• MMs can get some of their best set bonuses from slotting their attacks (henchmen tend to be franken-slotted)

If attacks are going to be slotted: I lean towards going for set bonuses, especially for Endurance effects. Keep in mind:

• %damage requires making ToHit rolls
• MM attacks also have a high Endurance cost

If going for a %proc in an MM attack, I prefer using "damage multiplier" %procs that do %-Resistance.... assuming there will be henchmen making attacks.

[StrikerFox]

17 hours ago, You said:

Still debating whether to proc personal attacks.  Does anyone know if that temp pet proc well?

 

I remember testing that. Spectral Minions with the Gladiator's Javelin proc. It did not activate at all for them... But now that I think about it, I think their attacks are melee. If any of the SM attacks apply a -tohit debuff, Cloud Senses proc should be tested as well.

 

Edit: I just tested it. Neither range or Cloud Senses proc for Spectral Minions. They didn't trigger any for 150 secs of nonstop attacks.

 

chatlog 2023-10-12.txt

Edited October 13, 2023 by StrikerFox

[Warlawk]

So after playing a bit more I really have to give some love to Mercs, the performance is good and it just feels good to play. I would love some customization options to change the aesthetic but play/performance wise they really hit it out of the park. Necro is excellent as well, perhaps even better than mercs from a performance perspective but the 5/6 melee nature of the set still holds it back a little bit for me.

 

Updated:

Demons

Mercs

Thugs, Necro

Ninjas, Bots

.

..

...

....

.....

Beast Mastery.