Instant Healing and Regeneration changes

[Psi-bolt]

Ever since this thread:  

 

 

I have been thinking about what realistic changes could be made to the Regeneration sets to close the gap between it and other sets.  I have also been thinking about what Regeneration would need if it were proliferated over to Tankers.   To level set, I do not believe that Regeneration needs to be as capable as the defense sets in handling high difficulty content.  I also don't think that the set needs to change from it's more active form of protection.  What I do think is necessary is for Regeneration to have some form of layered protection that is enjoyed by just about every other set.  Regeneration depends in large part on healing.  It has a bit of resistance in the excellent passive Resilience.  MoG gives it an incredible "defensive cooldown."  But the constant mitigation that Regen provides is very weak.  This makes it very weak to "alpha strikes" those big spikes of damage that a tank  especially needs to be able to counter.   So the suggestions below are intended to do two things:

 

1. Improve the constant, baseline mitigation of the set
2. Make it an acceptable set for Tanking, if it were proliferated

 

With that as my goals, here are my suggested changes:

 

1. Make the Regeneration buff of Integration full enhanceable;
2. Change Instant Healing to a toggle with the following effects:

 

For Tankers, Brutes and Scrappers

 

200% Regeneration (unenhanceable)

10%/7.5% Resistance to all damage (fully enhanceable) with one enemy in range

2%/1.5% resistance to all damage (unenhanceable) for each additional enemy in range (up to 9 or 18%/13.5%)

400% taunt (for Tankers, Brutes); 300% Taunt for Scrappers

 

For Stalkers

 

200% Regeneration (unenhanceable)

15% resistance to all damage (fully enhanceable)

 

For Sentinels

 

Absorb Shield (at current values)

14% resistance to all damage (fully enhanceable)

 

I would also change the order of the powers to move Instant Healing to Tier 4 and Dull Pain to Tier 7 (Sentinel Order wouldn't change).  

 

That's it, that's what I would do if I had the ability.  I think this would be enough to make Regeneration a decent Tanking set and good for the other ATs.  It doesn't even break Statesman's silly rule about not changing the essential function of a power since it stays a Regeneration ability, in part at least.  

[kelika2]

we all eventually found out this game is still balanced around SOs and no changes to regen will ever happen because regen is a god in only SOs or something

[Psi-bolt]

1 hour ago, kelika2 said:

we all eventually found out this game is still balanced around SOs and no changes to regen will ever happen because regen is a god in only SOs or something

 

Yes, this is true.  I debated long and hard before posting this thread because the futility of seeking buffs for a set nerfed 18 years ago seems futile, but I had to get it out on paper.

[FupDup]

To be fair, Assault Rifle is actually good now. Assault Rifle. Freaking Assault Rifle of all things.

 

If AR can be buffed, Regen does have a tiny sliver of hope, maybe. But it might take a while around here...

[Psyonico]

Regen is actually in a good place for sentinels, perhaps the ideas put there can be ported over to the other ATs?

[FupDup]

41 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

Regen is actually in a good place for sentinels, perhaps the ideas put there can be ported over to the other ATs?

That is unlikely because there are several people who deeply, deeply, adore the current "super clicky" design of Regen and consider that its single most important identity/theme.

 

Considering how it only took like 2 or 3 people to make the devs keep Beanbag in Assault Rifle, any kind of redesign that made Regen on other ATs act like the Sent variant would never have a chance in hell of making it in. We're just gonna have to work within the current design as best we can with stat buffs and adding some more goodies to existing powers (like some debuff resistances). 

 

A part of me also likes Sents getting so many unique changes to powersets that no one else is ever allowed to touch, which is why I almost like how Sents are the only AT that gets Aim in Assault Rifle. They're the official "fuck the cottage rule" AT and I love to see it. 

Edited October 7, 2023 by FupDup

[Glacier Peak]

When talking about adding Regeneration to Tankers, hit points (HP) are the key to making the set work. The bigger the HP pool, the higher the regeneration per second. So since 3543 HP is the max HP cap on a Tankers, (and potentially add in an Absorb buffer of up to 1874 absorb points), you'll be easily hitting the highest green regeneration numbers possible per second. Even though Scrappers have the highest Regeneration cap, Tankers have the highest Max HP.

 

Can anyone good with math play with that and make my point for me?

[FupDup]

Besides higher regen per second, more HP also means a greater buffer to eat burst damage with. 

[SwitchFade]

<twitch>

 

Nerf Regen.

[Rudra]

56 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

When talking about adding Regeneration to Tankers, hit points (HP) are the key to making the set work. The bigger the HP pool, the higher the regeneration per second. So since 3543 HP is the max HP cap on a Tankers, (and potentially add in an Absorb buffer of up to 1874 absorb points), you'll be easily hitting the highest green regeneration numbers possible per second. Even though Scrappers have the highest Regeneration cap, Tankers have the highest Max HP.

 

Can anyone good with math play with that and make my point for me?

Tankers have a regeneration cap of 2,500% once they hit level 20. (2,100% below level 20.)

Scrappers have a regeneration cap of 3,000% once they hit level 20. (2,200% below level 20.)

(https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Limits#Health_Regeneration)

 

Base regeneration is 5% every 12 seconds. (I am unsure if the cap is the flat out percentage they get back every 12 seconds, if it changes the time interval at which it is applied, or if it is a factor of the 5%.)

(https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Health_Regeneration)

 

Tankers have a HP cap of 3,533.9601 at level 50.

Scrappers have a HP cap of 2,409.51825 at level 50.

(https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Hit_Points)

(Edit: The wiki seems to round off the hundredths place, so Tankers become 3,534 and Scrappers become 2,409.5. I will not be rounding for this.)

 

So that kind of makes the math difficult since I am unsure how the regeneration cap is applied. Will attempt a few methods.

 

If regeneration cap is the percentage of health gained every 12 seconds, then forget the math. Every 12 seconds both the Scrapper and the Tanker are fully healed unless defeated.

 

If the regeneration cap is a factor of the base regeneration, then forget the math. Every 12 seconds the Tanker would heal 125% of max HP and the Scrapper would heal 150% of max HP, so fully healed every 12 seconds unless dead.

 

If the regeneration cap is the rate at which the tics are applied? The Scrapper would heal 5% of max HP (120.4759125 HP) every 0.4 seconds, so would be fully healed in 8 seconds. While the Tanker would heal 5% of max HP (176.698005 HP) every 0.48 seconds, so would be fully healed in 9.6 seconds.

(Edit again: If you want it as a per second thing? Scrappers: 301.18978125 HP/s Tankers: 368.12084375 HP/s )

 

Now, I'm fairly certain I'm doing this wrong, but without further explanation of how the caps and base work, it's what I came up with.

 

(Edit: Bear in mind, this is strictly with both ATs at HP caps and regeneration caps.)

Edited October 8, 2023 by Rudra

[Psi-bolt]

39 minutes ago, Rudra said:

If the regeneration cap is a factor of the base regeneration, then forget the math. Every 12 seconds the Tanker would heal 125% of max HP and the Scrapper would heal 150% of max HP, so fully healed every 12 seconds unless dead.

 

If the regeneration cap is the rate at which the tics are applied? The Scrapper would heal 5% of max HP (120.4759125 HP) every 0.4 seconds, so would be fully healed in 8 seconds. While the Tanker would heal 5% of max HP (176.698005 HP) every 0.48 seconds, so would be fully healed in 9.6 seconds.

(Edit again: If you want it as a per second thing? Scrappers: 301.18978125 HP/s Tankers: 368.12084375 HP/s )

 

Now, I'm fairly certain I'm doing this wrong, but without further explanation of how the caps and base work, it's what I came up with.

 

(Edit: Bear in mind, this is strictly with both ATs at HP caps and regeneration caps.)

 

Regeneration buffs are based on your base regeneration which is 25% of your max health per minute. 

 

So if you have a 100% regeneration buff, you now regenerate 50% of your max health per minute.

 

Regen has about 450% enhanced regeneration buffs active at all times, which means a Regen player is regenerating 137.5% (base +buffs) of their health per minute also counting Health.  Enhanced Instant healing ups that to 387.5% while it's active.  Instant healing enhanced is about a 1000% regeneration buff which is the equivalent of 2.5x your max health per minute.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Psi-bolt
Adding more context

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Psi-bolt said:

 

Regeneration buffs are based on your base regeneration which is 25% of your max health per minute. 

 

So if you have a 100% regeneration buff, you now regenerate 50% of your max health per minute.

 

Regen has about 450% enhanced regeneration buffs active at all times, which means a Regen player is regenerating 137.5% (base +buffs) of their health per minute also counting Health.  Enhanced Instant healing ups that to 387.5% while it's active.  Instant healing enhanced is about a 1000% regeneration buff which is the equivalent of 2.5x your max health per minute.

I get that part. The questions I have are does that change the intervals at which the tic of health is applied and is the regeneration cap a buff to the base regeneration or the total value that can be achieved including the base? If the answer to the first question is "no", then the second question doesn't matter. At max regeneration, you fully heal every 12 seconds.  (Edit: Because a Tanker at 2,500% regeneration would be healing 625% max health every minute, or 125% max health every 12 seconds.) However, I've watched some of my characters heal tics of health faster than every 12 seconds, and that is even before we get into using Rest. If the intervals at which the tic is applied is affected by the regeneration rate, thus achieving the levels you state by a different means, then whether the regeneration cap is a buff to the base value or if it already includes the base value changes the final numbers.

 

(Edit: Well, I didn't know the Regeneration sets numbers per power, but breaking that out is a whole new ball of yarn I am currently disinclined to entangle myself in.)

 

Edit again:

Okay, apparently I'm going to tackle this ball of yarn and see how it unravels....

 

Starting figures:

Scrapper: 1,338.62125 HP (base) / 2,409.51825 HP (max)

Tanker: 1,874.06975 HP (base) / 3,533.9601 HP (max)

Regen: +450% regeneration rate (not doing Dull Pain, Integration, or Instant healing) (Using the buff value provided by @Psi-bolt for ease)

Method: Regeneration rate buffs affect rate of healing application rather than limiting healing to every 12 seconds.

Allowed Base HP modifiers: None, including from Regeneration itself.

Allowed Max HP modifiers: None, ATs are already at max allowed regardless of means of achieving limit.

Health power: Not used for this application.

 

Scrapper with automatic regeneration buffs applied:

     Base HP total: 5% HP (66.9310625 HP) every 2.18182 (rounding off infinite decimal) seconds.

     Max HP total: 5% HP (120.4759125 HP) every 2.18182 (rounding off infinite decimal) seconds.

 

Tanker with automatic regeneration buffs applied:

     Base HP total: 5% HP (93.7034875 HP) every 2.18182 (rounding off infinite decimal) seconds.

     Max HP total: 5% HP (176.698005 HP) every 2.18182 (rounding off infinite decimal) seconds.

 

I hope those numbers are of use/help to you, @Glacier Peak. (I also hope the method I chose to settle on was the correct one....)

Edited October 8, 2023 by Rudra

[Dona Eis Requiem]

I had a dark/regen scrapper on live who I thoroughly enjoyed playing. She was post-nerf, pre-Incarnate. 

The way the set operated made sense to me in that time frame. I thought about typical regen heroes in comics and it seemed to jibe with them.

You could take a massive amount of damage, be a sliver away from biting it for a long while, and only kissing the floor if you didn't bother to kick your regen into overdrive with a self-heal before it was too late.

I'm not really all that great at the numbers game, but it seems to me that the problem lies with post-Incarnate performance. Like the HP pool wasn't increased at a rate to be on par with the amount of damage you could take before faceplanting. You can't expand the HP pool with an Incarnate path because everyone would take it (balance).

So then what pool powers do you change/add/remove to a point where it is viable for the inflated numbers of post-50 content for the Regen pool only? 

It might seem like an easy fix of slapping a sustain on it until you remember there's a power theme you're following.  Do you add a sustain power and pass it off as just another mutated effect of being able to Regen to begin with? *shrugs* 

 

[Captain Fabulous]

/powercreep

[Psi-bolt]

7 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

/powercreep

Do you honestly think so?  Because this greatly reduces the amount of potential regeneration in IH in exchange for the scaling resistance.

[Luminara]

10 hours ago, Rudra said:

does that change the intervals at which the tic of health is applied

 

Yes.  The 5% HP regenerated is a static value.  Interval is the variable.  +Regen = shorter interval.

 

10 hours ago, Rudra said:

 

and is the regeneration cap a buff to the base regeneration or the total value that can be achieved including the base?

 

Total including base.  Everything in the game has at a base value, due to the nature of buffs (which includes enhancements) and debuffs, which use that as the starting point for going up or down.  In Regeneration's case, that's 1.0, or 100%.

 

12 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

The bigger the HP pool, the higher the regeneration per second.

 

+HP doesn't change the frequency of regeneration pulses.  Only +Regeneration does that.  What you meant, but not what you said, was that the higher your current maximum HP value, the more HP regenerated with each pulse.

 

5% of 1017 = 50.85

5% of 3534 = 176.70

 

The frequency of HP regenerated isn't increased, nor is the percentage of HP, only the net effect of that percentage.

[FupDup]

5 hours ago, Psi-bolt said:

Do you honestly think so?  Because this greatly reduces the amount of potential regeneration in IH in exchange for the scaling resistance.

He just spams that in response to literally any thread suggesting power balance changes. He's trying to parody people who say that buffing bad things would cause power creep, except he's going waaay too far with it. 

[Captain Fabulous]

9 hours ago, Psi-bolt said:

Do you honestly think so?  Because this greatly reduces the amount of potential regeneration in IH in exchange for the scaling resistance.

Well...if you want my honest opinion...

I agree IH should be a toggle. I do not think it should get resistances or a taunt aura. There's already one in Integration for Brutes (Scrappers don't and shouldn't get them), you don't need two. The inherent problem with Regen is that it's a reactive set, which makes it largely untenable for Tanks (and I dare say even Brutes). And there is no easy way to fix this without adding resistance or defense, two things the set just shouldn't have. That being said, I think Moment of Glory could be adjusted in a Tank version to make it something they could use to help mitigate alpha attacks. But that would require greatly reducing the recharge time so it was up for every spawn, otherwise you wouldn't be able to do your job. But the flip side of this is that you run the risk of making MoG the cornerstone power and negating the value of the other powers in the set (see: Granite Armor, Light Form). I think it *could* be done, but would be tricky to get just right. MoG has always been a problematic power, as it runs fundamentally contrary to the rest of the set. Personally I would like to see MoG revamped with something that thematically fits, e.g. remove the +def and +resists and add 100% +absorb and set +regen to max.

Another inherent problem with regeneration (the stat, not the set) is that it has diminishing returns as it's a reductive stat, not additive or multiplicative, working more like recharge reduction than things like damage or tohit buffs. Regeneration reduces the time between health ticks, and as you add more and more the net value of each addition is increasingly reduced. As a primary form of damage mitigation it's extremely binary -- either you regenerate enough to counter the incoming damage or you don't. Too much and you're godly. Not enough and you die.

But there are two things that are missing from Brute & Scrapper Regen (and one from Sentinel) that should be added, +absorb and +hp. IMHO instead of IH adding more +regen, change it to +hp at a fixed interval that scales up as your HP drops, working similarly to heal over time powers in Nature and Time sets. This works to complement regeneration instead of adding to it (which as I stated above results in diminishing returns), and also protects you from -regen debuffs, which would have no effect on it. I would then remove the +resistance in Resilience and add +absorb, which like a +hp HoT would complement +regen instead of just adding to it or introducing resistances. So now instead of just +regen and a tiny amount of resistances you have +regen, +hp, and +absorb, all of which would add greater survivability without changing the nature of the set and without having to add any defense or resistances.

So yeah, I think there are a number of ways to make Regen better without turning it into Bio or Willpower. Do I think it's ever going to happen? Nyet.

 

[Psi-bolt]

2 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

Well...if you want my honest opinion...

I agree IH should be a toggle. I do not think it should get resistances or a taunt aura. There's already one in Integration for Brutes (Scrappers don't and shouldn't get them), you don't need two.
 

 

Agreed actually, I just forgot to mention that I would remove the taunt aura from Integration.  I think they only put it there because there was literally no other place for it.  I don't think the mez protection toggle is a good place for a taunt aura.  It's just out of place.  As for giving it to Scrappers, it's inherent in all the "scaling mitigation" toggles like Invincibility, Rise to the Challenge, etc.  

 

Quote

The inherent problem with Regen is that it's a reactive set, which makes it largely untenable for Tanks (and I dare say even Brutes). And there is no easy way to fix this without adding resistance or defense, two things the set just shouldn't have. That being said, I think Moment of Glory could be adjusted in a Tank version to make it something they could use to help mitigate alpha attacks. But that would require greatly reducing the recharge time so it was up for every spawn, otherwise you wouldn't be able to do your job. But the flip side of this is that you run the risk of making MoG the cornerstone power and negating the value of the other powers in the set (see: Granite Armor, Light Form). I think it *could* be done, but would be tricky to get just right. MoG has always been a problematic power, as it runs fundamentally contrary to the rest of the set. Personally I would like to see MoG revamped with something that thematically fits, e.g. remove the +def and +resists and add 100% +absorb and set +regen to max.

 

I find it interesting that you mention that because the set already has three powers that give resistance:  Reconstruction, Resilience and MoG.  It literally has just as many resistance powers as it does powers that buff regeneration.  Resilience is the best passive resistance power in the game.  The set has more resistance powers than it does reactive heals.  Sure one might say that the resistance in Reconstruction is just for "flavor" but resilience and MoG certainly aren't.   As you say, fundamentally, the set will never work for tankers unless it has some MORE resistance or defense.   I don't think MoG is the way to bridge this.  I don't think there's a way to make MoG fill that role unless you do make the set revolve around it.  I hate that about Granite Armor and the Kheldian capstone powers.  I also don't think Tankers should have to rely on ally buffs until level 26.  

 

Quote

So yeah, I think there are a number of ways to make Regen better without turning it into Bio or Willpower. Do I think it's ever going to happen? Nyet.

 

Also agreed.  This was more just getting the idea off my chest, I had these fights with the live devs 15+ years ago I don't have much hope that the Homecoming devs want to wade into the mess the live devs left Regen in.