Shield for Sentinels

[SolSoldier]

Just an idea I've had but, I think Sentinels should be able to use Shields as an armor option if the primary powerset isn't a weapon based ranged set.
Like how you can't use Shields with dual-wield or two-handed weapons, Shields would be unable to be mixed with pistols/rifles/bow but available for the empty handed powers like energy/fire/etc.

I know this'll get some 'But Sentinels Suck' responses or w/e but, that's fine, personally, I enjoy my Sentinels, and would love to have the Shield option for numerous concepts.

[Rudra]

I was going to say it should work with some weapons too, but you're right, all the ranged weapon sets use both hands. I can support this request.

[Force Redux]

Sentinels don't suck now, and yes, this is a great idea. Low hanging fruit, I say.

[Psyonico]

I want shield sentinels, but the devs already said it wasn't going to happen because every blast set would need a new set of animations for it to work.

[FupDup]

This is currently unpossible due to how janky and haphazard the implementation of shield was. It's not just about having a weapon or not, it's about having a completely free left hand. Ideally, shield should have had an option (or make this the default way it works) to mount it on the side so that the left hand can still hold stuff or at least shoot hand blasts. Look at this cheater here using Assault Rifle and Shield: 

 

 

In our archaic game, IDK whether or not it would be possible to have the shield attach to the side of your character's left glove piece similar to how holstered weapons work (except in this case it would stay "holstered" forever unless you toggle off all the shield powers maybe). That's the first potential workaround I can think without knowing anything about the spaghetti that holds this game together. 

 

As for meta/gameplay discussion, the set has a lot of potential on Sents because so far all armors that lacked sustain on other ATs were given it on Sents, and the lack of sustain is the main weakness of the set. The scaling damage boost would either be made static (similar to WP's scaling regen) or replaced with a sustain power. Shield Charge could maybe be replaced by Shield Throw if we found a way around the animation issues, or just replace it with another sustain power of some sort. Grant Cover would be pretty great here because you could protect backline teammates with it, whereas the current version is more about helping melee teammates who are in the thick of it with you (as a melee AT). 

Edited December 24, 2023 by FupDup

[Saiyajinzoningen]

On 12/24/2023 at 12:27 PM, Psyonico said:

I want shield sentinels, but the devs already said it wasn't going to happen because every blast set would need a new set of animations for it to work.

 

Yea if you take a look at the animation files your will find that shield has its own set of alternate animations for every melee power in the game.

there are a few outliers like energy torrent but it's just shield brawl with the torrent FX on it I think

either way it would be enormously time consuming for them to create new shield animations for every ranged attack

[ninja surprise]

On 12/24/2023 at 3:15 PM, FupDup said:

This is currently unpossible due to how janky and haphazard the implementation of shield was. It's not just about having a weapon or not, it's about having a completely free left hand. Ideally, shield should have had an option (or make this the default way it works) to mount it on the side so that the left hand can still hold stuff or at least shoot hand blasts. Look at this cheater here using Assault Rifle and Shield: 

 

In our archaic game, IDK whether or not it would be possible to have the shield attach to the side of your character's left glove piece similar to how holstered weapons work (except in this case it would stay "holstered" forever unless you toggle off all the shield powers maybe). That's the first potential workaround I can think without knowing anything about the spaghetti that holds this game together. 

 

 

The ideal solution here is to have a "minimal FX" option where there's no shield visible and it uses normal animations. That'd be pretty cool to get any day of the week.

[Rudra]

9 minutes ago, ninja surprise said:

 

The ideal solution here is to have a "minimal FX" option where there's no shield visible and it uses normal animations. That'd be pretty cool to get any day of the week.

Then why even bother taking Shield Defense? (Edit: Just take Willpower at that point. And it is even already available to Sentinels.)

Edited December 31, 2023 by Rudra

[biostem]

Hmm... I wonder if they could move the shield to being a "mandatory" back item, then you just kind of lash it onto your arm when doing shield charge, or just replace that with some other power.  It's not ideal, but it'd bypass the whole animation issue...

[Uun]

10 hours ago, Rudra said:

Then why even bother taking Shield Defense? (Edit: Just take Willpower at that point. And it is even already available to Sentinels.)

Presumably, people want Shield for a positional defense armor with some resistance, +hp  and +dmg thrown in. Willpower is a regen/resist set with some +hp and typed defense thrown in. It plays very differently. Super Reflexes is probably the closest to Shield from a play standpoint, but it has no +hp or +dmg and its resistance only kicks in at low health. 

[Rudra]

4 hours ago, Uun said:

16 hours ago, Rudra said:

Then why even bother taking Shield Defense? (Edit: Just take Willpower at that point. And it is even already available to Sentinels.)

Presumably, people want Shield for a positional defense armor with some resistance, +hp  and +dmg thrown in. Willpower is a regen/resist set with some +hp and typed defense thrown in. It plays very differently. Super Reflexes is probably the closest to Shield from a play standpoint, but it has no +hp or +dmg and its resistance only kicks in at low health. 

Then those players still have access to a set that grants the mechanics they want without having to take away the core identity of shield defense: the shield.

[ninja surprise]

On 12/31/2023 at 5:34 AM, Uun said:

Presumably, people want Shield for a positional defense armor with some resistance, +hp  and +dmg thrown in. Willpower is a regen/resist set with some +hp and typed defense thrown in. It plays very differently. Super Reflexes is probably the closest to Shield from a play standpoint, but it has no +hp or +dmg and its resistance only kicks in at low health. 

 

And you could also create costumes based on a shield concept but without a massive shield on one arm, like power armor, or magic wrist bracelets of protection, or a type of forcefield, etc. I have a ton of Shield concepts that don't require a physical shield.

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, ninja surprise said:

 

And you could also create costumes based on a shield concept but without a massive shield on one arm, like power armor, or magic wrist bracelets of protection, or a type of forcefield, etc. I have a ton of Shield concepts that don't require a physical shield.

Power armor encases the user. That isn't a shield defense concept unless you also have a focused defense on one arm like a shield. Same with magic bracelets of protection. Those provide all around protection for the character unless they generate a localized barrier like a shield. And again with force fields. So either you are looking at Invulnerability or some other general effect power set, or you have a localized on one arm defense like a shield for Shield Defense. Now if you want a Force Field armor set? Propose it.

 

(Edit: That is what makes Shield Defense shield defense. You have a construct of some sort that you have to intentionally interpose between you and harm. Anything that isn't some sort of barrier/construct that must be intentionally placed to intercept attacks is not using a shield. That is Invulnerability with armor costume pieces for magic armor, bracer costume pieces for magic bracers, full body technologically themed armor costume pieces for power armor, and so forth. Or a Super Reflexes if it helps you avoid the harm by getting out of the way or deflecting the harm. And so forth.)

 

(Edit again: Now if your hand was somehow impervious to harm, and only your hand was so if you were hit anywhere else on your body you would suffer normal harm, requiring you to intentionally interpose your hand to intercept the attack to avoid being harmed? Then congratulations, you have a shield. A very, very, very small shield, but still technically a shield. And though I would be inclined to have penalties apply such as reducing the set's effectiveness by half for that? The set will never see such penalties.)

Edited January 1 by Rudra

[biostem]

2 hours ago, ninja surprise said:

And you could also create costumes based on a shield concept but without a massive shield on one arm, like power armor, or magic wrist bracelets of protection, or a type of forcefield, etc. I have a ton of Shield concepts that don't require a physical shield.

I think you are mixing up the concept of a "forcefield" or armor with that of an actual, physical shield a la Captain America.  Energy Aura would probably be the closest analog for a non-physical shield "shield" power set.  Personally, I want something akin to how Captain America fought with his shield and a pistol in his first MCU movie, or how you sometimes see riot squad units wielding a shield and some other ranged weapon.  Heck, there are also multiple examples of this in sci-fi.  Honestly, I don't think it would look too wonky to just tack the shield onto your character's forearm - there are already some pretty chunky glove options as it is...

Edited January 2 by biostem

[ninja surprise]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Power armor encases the user. That isn't a shield defense concept unless you also have a focused defense on one arm like a shield.

 

1 hour ago, biostem said:

I think you are mixing up the concept of a "forcefield" or armor with that of an actual, physical shield a la Captain America.  

 

It appears you both don't realize that Shield Defense provides defense from attacks from all directions, and not just from attacks against the shield bearer's left/front side. It protects against floor-based attacks without requiring the user to stand on the shield and against AoE attacks without requiring the user to spin super duper fast to block fireballs and rockets, for instance.

 

Literally all the game mechanics show that Shield Defense doesn't operate the way you both imagine requiring shields to work in order to justify a physical shield on an arm. It's OK if you both have shield concepts that require a physical shield on the arm and nowhere else, but it's also OK to have imagination and other creative character concepts.

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Edit: That is what makes Shield Defense shield defense. You have a construct of some sort that you have to intentionally interpose between you and harm. Anything that isn't some sort of barrier/construct that must be intentionally placed to intercept attacks is not using a shield

 

So if I put a shield on my back is it still a shield or does it become invulnerability? What about arm bands that I use to block attacks by interposing them between me and harm?

 

What if you take Shield Defense from the verb definition: protect (someone or something) from a danger, risk, or unpleasant experience.

The shield could be a magic amulet, robes of protection, Thor spinning his hammer super fast to block attacks, a Staff user blocking attacks with their staff, or that episode of Robotech where the SDF's shields were down and they had three women moving tiny shields around the surface of the ship to block attacks. Shield could include the Hyuga clan's (of Naruto) Gentle Fist technique where they block attacks with chakra. 

It doesn't have to be a knight in shining armor as the only possible type and user of a big metal plate.

[Rudra]

52 minutes ago, ninja surprise said:

It appears you both don't realize that Shield Defense provides defense from attacks from all directions, and not just from attacks against the shield bearer's left/front side. It protects against floor-based attacks without requiring the user to stand on the shield and against AoE attacks without requiring the user to spin super duper fast to block fireballs and rockets, for instance.

The game's mechanics do not limit the shield to single arc, correct. Neither does it animate your character actually using the shield which is how your character would be avoiding those attacks from any direction. We're playing a comic-based game, but some elements of comics cannot be directly incorporated into the game mechanics and animations. It's like a Super Reflexes character. Super Reflexes characters in comics are constantly moving and actively dodging attacks. In the game, you can just stand there instead. That is a limitation of the game and does not change what the power set is designed as.

 

52 minutes ago, ninja surprise said:

So if I put a shield on my back is it still a shield or does it become invulnerability?

No, it becomes useless unless an enemy is dumb enough to try and hurt you through the stowed shield. It does not become invulnerability. (Edit again: Basically, if you stow your shield and leave it there during combat? It becomes back only armor.)

 

52 minutes ago, ninja surprise said:

What about arm bands that I use to block attacks by interposing them between me and harm?

Is it a barrier that you must interpose between you and incoming harm? Yes? Then congratulations, it is technically a shield in this game.

 

52 minutes ago, ninja surprise said:

What if you take Shield Defense from the verb definition: protect (someone or something) from a danger, risk, or unpleasant experience.

There is a difference between the verb shield and the noun shield. Shield Defense is the noun, not the verb.  And if you want to go with the verb? Then here you go:

 

SHIELD:

15. to protect (someone or something) with or as if with a shield.

16. to serve as a protection for.

17. to hide or conceal; protect by hiding.

18. Obsolete. to avert; forbid.

verb (used without object)

19. to act or serve as a shield.

 

Note that the verb form refers to protecting as if with a shield. It references the noun. And what is the noun? Here you go:

noun

1. a broad piece of armor, varying widely in form and size, carried apart from the body, usually on the left arm, as a defense against swords, lances, arrows, etc.

2. a similar device, often of lightweight plastic, used by riot police to protect themselves from rocks and other thrown objects.

3. something shaped like a shield, variously round, octagonal, triangular, or somewhat heart-shaped.

4. a person or thing that protects.

 

52 minutes ago, ninja surprise said:

The shield could be a magic amulet, robes of protection,

No, it can't because it provides protection by fortifying your entire body or providing an encompassing barrier that protects you.

 

52 minutes ago, ninja surprise said:

Thor spinning his hammer super fast to block attacks, a Staff user blocking attacks with their staff

Yes, these can because they are objects held apart from the body that are being interposed between the user and the incoming harm. They just can't attack with their weapon while using it as a shield.

 

52 minutes ago, ninja surprise said:

that episode of Robotech where the SDF's shields were down and they had three women moving tiny shields around the surface of the ship to block attacks.

The barrier you are talking about is more of a localized force field, but it still works as a shield because it has to be interposed between the ship and the incoming attacks. (Edit: Now if the effect you are talking about before those women had to manipulate the shields encompassed the ship? You're talking about a force field.)

 

52 minutes ago, ninja surprise said:

Shield could include the Hyuga clan's (of Naruto) Gentle Fist technique where they block attacks with chakra.

That depends on whether what you are talking about is them actively interposing something between them and any incoming harm or if it is a passive barrier they set up around themselves as omni-directional protection. (Edit: If they must intentionally position their chakra defense to block the attack? Then it is a shield. If what they make/use encompasses them protecting them from harm? It is a force field.)

 

52 minutes ago, ninja surprise said:

It doesn't have to be a knight in shining armor as the only possible type and user of a big metal plate.

Correct, it does not. It can be a localized energy barrier that you have to manually interpose between you and incoming harm. It can be a large rock you ripped out of the ground and swing between you and incoming harm. (Edit yet again: It can be a really sturdy stick or small tree that was picked up and being used to catch and stop sword and axe blows aimed at the character (such as by say a dwarf fighting orcs in Middle Earth).) It can be anything that is apart from the body that is actively interposed between the character and incoming harm.

Edited January 2 by Rudra

[biostem]

31 minutes ago, ninja surprise said:

It appears you both don't realize that Shield Defense provides defense from attacks from all directions, and not just from attacks against the shield bearer's left/front side. It protects against floor-based attacks without requiring the user to stand on the shield and against AoE attacks without requiring the user to spin super duper fast to block fireballs and rockets, for instance.

 

Literally all the game mechanics show that Shield Defense doesn't operate the way you both imagine requiring shields to work in order to justify a physical shield on an arm. It's OK if you both have shield concepts that require a physical shield on the arm and nowhere else, but it's also OK to have imagination and other creative character concepts.

The game cannot/does not differentiate attacks made from the front/rear/sides.  That does not mean that the intent of the powerset, as evidenced by its in-game representation, is anything other than you are utilizing an actual shield on your arm to provide said protection.

[twozerofoxtrot]

I love how I can click a thread on my phone, scroll up from the bottom, go like 4 swipes before getting to the top and halfway through think "this is a Rudra post" and have that ego-tingling warm feeling of being right when I finally get there.

 

 

But anyhow Rudra is more or less right. Apply the logic to any other weapon set. Dual Blades with nothing held? Battle Axe but it's invisible?

 

I'm all for maximum customization and minimum effects proliferation but SD without the shield is just silly. At that point its "Defense" (ironically one of the more offensive protection powersets). 

 

Edited January 2 by twozerofoxtrot
Literally a single letter.

[biostem]

17 minutes ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

I'm all for maximum customization and minimum effects proliferation but SD without the shield is just silly. At that point its "Defense" (ironically one of the more offensive protection powersets). 

And I think you've hit on one of the biggest sticking points - people wants *some* aspects of a powerset without the others, and any pushback seems to be taken as a personal slight.