Maintenance Drone Adjustment Request

[Rudra]

I think this was requested before, but I am not currently inclined to look for it to be certain. When the Robotics' Repair power was changed to Maintenance Drone, it was both an improvement and a downgrade. The improvement part is obvious. The drone will repair your bots for you without having to spend an attack to do heal them yourself. The downgrade? Is that the Protector Bots absolutely refuse to use their own heals while the Maintenance Drone is around. This results in players like me just not using the Maintenance Drone. It works much better, for me at least, to let the Protector Bots use their heals while I use my secondary's heal or +regen' power instead.

 

So my request is this, though I am not certain of the feasibility: Restore the Protector Bots' ability to heal the other bots even while the Maintenance Drone is available. As it stands, I don't even bother with the power because it just isn't worth it. (My current character with the power is waiting for a freespec to respec out of it.) At least with the Repair power, I could heal a target bot without the Protector Bots completely ignoring one of their high tier upgrade upgrade powers.

[Doc_Scorpion]

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

Is that the Protector Bots absolutely refuse to use their own heals while the Maintenance Drone is around.

Protector bots inherited Repair - complete with it's absolutely awful recharge time.  Are you sure they're not using it rather than simply waiting out it's overly long timer? 

[Rudra]

44 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Protector bots inherited Repair - complete with it's absolutely awful recharge time.  Are you sure they're not using it rather than simply waiting out it's overly long timer? 

I am. I spent several missions specifically watching my Protector Bots while I had the Maintenance Drone out and while I did not. There were several instances where my bots needed to be healed, but only the Maintenance Drone would do any healing. You can see when the Protector Bots or the Maintenance Drone use their respective heals. And as long as the Maintenance Drone was spawned, the Protector Bots adamantly refused to use their heals. For entire missions.

 

(Edit: Protector Bots have a 30 second recharge on their Repair power. So when all my bots are heavily damaged and in dire need of repairs, the Protector Bots should be healing something approximately every 30 seconds as long as they have the END for it. And they don't for as long as the Maintenance Drone is spawned. Ever.)

 

(Edit again: Also, the Protector Bots did not inherit Repair. They had their version of it since the set was launched.)

Edited January 10 by Rudra

[Vanden]

This sounds more like a bug to me.

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, Vanden said:

This sounds more like a bug to me.

Well, f this is a bug and the Protector Bots should already still be using their heals even with the Maintenance Drone out? Then I will thank a GM for moving this thread to the Bugs forum. If however, this is not a bug? It is here already.

[tidge]

It does appear that the Protector Bots do less healing (when the Maintenance Drone is out), but my same eyes tell me that the Protector Bots are doing more damage. Prior to Maintenance Drone, my Protector Bots would often be the only henchmen standing around with full Endurance bars (because they were not attacking so much). after the change to the primary their Endurance usage tracks much more in line with the T1 and T3.

 

As an aside, I could easily discriminate between the T2 actions and the T1/T3 actions because prior to the Robotics revamp I had the T1/T3 slotted for KB->KD but NOT on the T2... so pretty much all of the T2 uses of Endurance were easily visible.

 

TL;DR: What the OP thinks is a bug is IMO an improvement in previous T2 henchmen behavior.

[Rudra]

6 hours ago, tidge said:

It does appear that the Protector Bots do less healing (when the Maintenance Drone is out), but my same eyes tell me that the Protector Bots are doing more damage. Prior to Maintenance Drone, my Protector Bots would often be the only henchmen standing around with full Endurance bars (because they were not attacking so much). after the change to the primary their Endurance usage tracks much more in line with the T1 and T3.

 

As an aside, I could easily discriminate between the T2 actions and the T1/T3 actions because prior to the Robotics revamp I had the T1/T3 slotted for KB->KD but NOT on the T2... so pretty much all of the T2 uses of Endurance were easily visible.

 

TL;DR: What the OP thinks is a bug is IMO an improvement in previous T2 henchmen behavior.

Difference of opinion here. I prefer my Protector Bots to protect. I want them attacking as much as they can, but to me, their priority should always be to shield and heal. If the devs decide they should stay the way they are now? That's fine. I've finished respec'ing out of Maintenance Drone on my characters. It can just be a skippable power for me. (Though considering all the effort the devs put into making Repair, now Maintenance Drone, a desirable power, and now I find that it is more skippable than before the change, to be both sad and funny. And frustrating.)

 

(Edit: Especially since their heal has a 30 second recharge and pet powers are not affected by our characters' global effects like recharge reduction. That's ample time for them to be throwing attacks between heals.)

Edited January 11 by Rudra

[tidge]

The Protector Bots' healing has always been meh, and with nothing in the primary to invest the Henchmen/Pet globals in... it isn't as if there were a lot of slots in a MM build such that of many of the 18 possible henchmen slots could be dedicated to the T2 "protecting". Maintenance Drone has been a real godsend to the Robotics Primary.

 

I have Maintenance Drone six slotted, and it does a FAR better job keeping henchmen healed than the Protector Bots ever did. If I never summoned teh Maintenance Drone, I'm sure I'd see the Protector Bots healing just as inefficiently as before the upgrade. I do witness them healing other henchmen, usually after a Giant Monster has  hit us all with an AoE.

[Rudra]

I'm not asking for the Maintenance Drone to go away or be replaced or be revamped. All I'm asking for is for the Protector Bots to also use their own heals. I'm surprised you've seen yours heal because as I already stated, I made a point of watching mine and they refuse to heal anything ever while I have the drone out. (Edit yet again: And that includes after a boss or EB used an AoE that rendered all my bots critically injured.)

 

Edit: As for the Protector Bots' heals being meh? My guess is because they can't slot heal enhancements. (Edit again: At all, despite having a heal.) Allow them to slot heal sets and not only will they heal more, they will also likely recover more (because of set bonus). (Edit yet again continued: And yes, I would slot my Protector Bots for heals just like I do for defense right now. I'm not saying no one should use the Maintenance Drone. Though I am saying I won't use the Maintenance Drone. So I'm not following your argument very well.)

Edited January 12 by Rudra

[tidge]

The Henchmen AI is a janky thing. Any individual henchman has to have a decision algorithm, one of the inputs is the stance, another is what powers are available, another is which powers are recharged, another is which targets are legitimate. It should be no surprise that the Protector Bots Healing is a low priority item, especially when there is a pet dedicated to healing the only class of mobile that a Protector Bot can heal. My PoV: altering the Protector Bots algorithm so that they try to cast heals as the number one priority would hurt the offense of the Robotics primary.

 

Have you tried keeping you Protector Bots is "green" mode, where they are not actively looking for enemy targets? That sounds like what you want. Me, I want MOAR OFFENSE.

 

I've said it many times: Trying to keep henchmen "alive" with heals is a much lower priority for a MM (unless you want healing badges, I suppose) than buffing them with Defense/Resistance... and the point at which it makes sense to pursue henchman buffing also quickly reaches a point of diminishing returns. The game's reward system is for enemy defeats, not just sticking around. If an MM player wants to prioritize "sticking around" with a full suite of henchmen, there are plenty of ways to do that without gimping the offense from a primary power set. All the non-henchmen offense available to a MM takes an incredible toll in terms of Endurance and suffers from a damage scalar in ways that Defense/Resist Buffs, Controls, and Healing do not.

[Doc_Scorpion]

I've been playing one of my 'bot MM's heavily over the last week...  And I have seen my Protector Bot and Maintenance Drone simultaneously healing, but it only happens very rarely.

That suggests there's an error or bug somewhere in the Protector bot's AI.

[Rudra]

30 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

I've been playing one of my 'bot MM's heavily over the last week...  And I have seen my Protector Bot and Maintenance Drone simultaneously healing, but it only happens very rarely.

That suggests there's an error or bug somewhere in the Protector bot's AI.

Then I shall make a bug report about the Protector Bots instead.

[Doc_Scorpion]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

Then I shall make a bug report about the Protector Bots instead.

Never hurts to try!

[Rudra]

Link to new bug report version of this thread:

 

[Rudra]

On 1/12/2024 at 4:46 AM, tidge said:

The Henchmen AI is a janky thing. Any individual henchman has to have a decision algorithm, one of the inputs is the stance, another is what powers are available, another is which powers are recharged, another is which targets are legitimate. It should be no surprise that the Protector Bots Healing is a low priority item, especially when there is a pet dedicated to healing the only class of mobile that a Protector Bot can heal. My PoV: altering the Protector Bots algorithm so that they try to cast heals as the number one priority would hurt the offense of the Robotics primary.

 

Have you tried keeping you Protector Bots is "green" mode, where they are not actively looking for enemy targets? That sounds like what you want. Me, I want MOAR OFFENSE.

 

I've said it many times: Trying to keep henchmen "alive" with heals is a much lower priority for a MM (unless you want healing badges, I suppose) than buffing them with Defense/Resistance... and the point at which it makes sense to pursue henchman buffing also quickly reaches a point of diminishing returns. The game's reward system is for enemy defeats, not just sticking around. If an MM player wants to prioritize "sticking around" with a full suite of henchmen, there are plenty of ways to do that without gimping the offense from a primary power set. All the non-henchmen offense available to a MM takes an incredible toll in terms of Endurance and suffers from a damage scalar in ways that Defense/Resist Buffs, Controls, and Healing do not.

If I put the Protector Bots in Passive, "green" mode, they don't attack unless I specifically order them to attack a specific target. Why would I want them to not attack? As for the 3rd paragraph? You play the way you want. In my case, I prefer to keep my pets alive, usually through a mix of buffs on the pets, heals, and debuffs on the enemies, while fitting in my own attacks, so the pets can attack and decimate the targets. So again, I am not understanding what you are trying to tell me.

 

Edited January 16 by Rudra
Edited to add "unless I specifically order them to attack a specific target".

[tidge]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

So again, I am not understanding what you are trying to tell me.

 

I'm not trying to tell you anything except this: There are tradeoffs for your preferred playstyle. If you specifically want the Protector Bots to be switching between defense and offense, you will probably have to be more engaged with them by changing their stances. I know that if I want to drop inspirations on my Assault Bot, I have to switch it to passive because otherwise it is cycling through attacks so fast I can never get an inspiration to stick.

 

My advice is: Rely on the Maintenance Drone to heal the henchmen. It is better at it than the Protector Bots ever have been. Since that is a non-starter for you, if this is a high priority

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

In my case, I prefer to keep my pets alive, usually through a mix of buffs on the pets, heals, and debuffs on the enemies, while fitting in my own attacks, so the pets can attack and decimate the targets. So again, I am not understanding what you are trying to tell me.

and you aren't taking the best henchmen heal in the Robotics Primary, at some point you have to realize that you are asking for a somewhat radical change to the primary (more Protector Bot healing) without wanting to give up offense from the Protector Bots in exchange. I propose the tradeoff on offense be done via changing stances, but it sounds more and more like you want a code change. Is there nothing else that you would accept?

 

Since this is the suggestions forum, allow me to make a suggestion: If the healing and buffing the Robotics henchmen is a priority, and Maintenance Drone is off the table, my next suggestion is to pick a Secondary that will do what you want, including heals. Dark is the classic choice, but it is not the only one.

 

 

[Rudra]

46 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

I'm not trying to tell you anything except this: There are tradeoffs for your preferred playstyle. If you specifically want the Protector Bots to be switching between defense and offense, you will probably have to be more engaged with them by changing their stances. I know that if I want to drop inspirations on my Assault Bot, I have to switch it to passive because otherwise it is cycling through attacks so fast I can never get an inspiration to stick.

 

My advice is: Rely on the Maintenance Drone to heal the henchmen. It is better at it than the Protector Bots ever have been. Since that is a non-starter for you, if this is a high priority

and you aren't taking the best henchmen heal in the Robotics Primary, at some point you have to realize that you are asking for a somewhat radical change to the primary (more Protector Bot healing) without wanting to give up offense from the Protector Bots in exchange. I propose the tradeoff on offense be done via changing stances, but it sounds more and more like you want a code change. Is there nothing else that you would accept?

 

Since this is the suggestions forum, allow me to make a suggestion: If the healing and buffing the Robotics henchmen is a priority, and Maintenance Drone is off the table, my next suggestion is to pick a Secondary that will do what you want, including heals. Dark is the classic choice, but it is not the only one.

 

 

I do typically use secondaries with heals. My most taken MM secondary is Dark. My only consideration behind this thread is that Robotics MMs have pets that get abilities with their 2nd upgrade that they don't use as long as another, newer pet is out. And to the best of my knowledge, that is not how the pets are supposed to work. As @Doc_Scorpion points out, it more seems to be a bug in the Protector Bots' code than the Maintenance Drone, hence the new thread on the Bugs forum. I am by no means advocating for the Maintenance Drone to be gimped nor am I advocating for the Protector Bots to only shield and heal. Indeed, my preference is for the pets to use their full available array of powers, but the Protector Bots are not doing so. Even if the Protector Bots are coded to prioritize attacking, their attacks are not so fast that they cannot also heal. Especially considering how often I see them just standing there with a sizable END bar left not doing a thing until they get a new attack to finish recharging while there are pets in need of heals.

 

Edit: And there are multiple times where I need number of heals more than I need anything else. Hence, my preference for the 2 Protector Bots with their 2 heals rather than the 1 Maintenance Drone with its 1 heal.

Edited January 17 by Rudra

[TheZag]

I think this may be intended behavior.  Ive noticed that many player allied NPCs wont overlap the same buff abilities on the same target.  (2 ally NPCs with speed boost will only cast 1 for example).  The protector bots may be 'seeing' an incoming heal from the maintenance drone and dont use theirs to prevent an overlap.  Its likely if the behavior were changed,  multiple buffing NPCs would become overpowered as they stack buffs in AE (think full stacks of fulcrum shift or multiple applications of fortitude).  Even if they didnt stack buffs,  the next day someone would request the change be reverted as the protector bots start overhealing a bot that the drone was in the process of healing,  wasting time, end and damage in the process.

 

[Rudra]

31 minutes ago, TheZag said:

I think this may be intended behavior.  Ive noticed that many player allied NPCs wont overlap the same buff abilities on the same target.  (2 ally NPCs with speed boost will only cast 1 for example).  The protector bots may be 'seeing' an incoming heal from the maintenance drone and dont use theirs to prevent an overlap.  Its likely if the behavior were changed,  multiple buffing NPCs would become overpowered as they stack buffs in AE (think full stacks of fulcrum shift or multiple applications of fortitude).  Even if they didnt stack buffs,  the next day someone would request the change be reverted as the protector bots start overhealing a bot that the drone was in the process of healing,  wasting time, end and damage in the process.

 

I'm not so sure that is the case. In the case of the Protector Bots, when their force fields were made AoE, yes, that behavior was added so the Protector Bots would not waste time applying the force field twice. And that makes sense. However, when you do not have the Maintenance Drone out? The Protector Bots have no problems with applying their heals, even at the same time. So if the behavior was intentional, then the Protector Bots would still exhibit the same behavior where only 1 will heal regardless of the lack of the Maintenance Drone.

[plainguy]

I think both Rudra and tidge make valid points in this.

Hearing tidge say the protector bots attacking more thus putting out more damage was honestly a common sense eye opener to me. 

I have said this many of times in the past. It is apparent or the impression I am getting is that Masterminds are a difficult Archtype for the Devs to work with. 
The impression I am getting is the code is clearly unique compared to other Archtypes and probably very buggy and jury rigged over the years. So it becomes almost an impossible mess to untangle. Thus the limited improvements Masterminds get overall. 

My hope is with the addition of other servers merging will bring other Devs that might have a better grasp in this Archtype that can bring new insight over. 
But I would also love just a candid reality check from the Devs as well to confirm or deny the issues with Masterminds.

Even if they said, look we have a total grasp on Masterminds, but I'm sorry the other AT are just more popular.. We need to work on what is popular more. 
I would get it.. 

I just think some honest clarity would just quell a lot of the threads that come up about Masterminds (or even other Archtypes) and save the suggestion forum for more workable and valid suggestions.