Bring back Training Enhancements for training purposes

[Maximum_J]

While I understand that bringing in new players isn't necessarily a goal of Homecoming, the removal of Training Enhancements makes it harder to teach brand new players how the game works.

 

The big problem with having DOs drop from level 1 is that Enhancements don't make any sense to a new player, so gaining an Enhancement that you 1) can't use and 2) don't understand is off-putting for new players.

 

Training Enhancements clearly tell you what they do.  For example, if you're playing a Tanker and a TO: Hold drops, you can quickly figure out that it's not helpful for you specifically.  Now, I understand most of the current player base has years of experience with the system and can what a DO, SO, or IO is just from the border and color, but we also had the luxury of learning how Enhancements work from TOs.

 

At the very least, if TOs aren't going to be drops, then put them back in shops with the Superpowered Trainers.  Yeah, DOs are much more powerful, but that doesn't matter when you can't afford to buy them.

[Rudra]

New players can also do the tutorials which address enhancements briefly, and then the advanced tutorial for which the contact is automatically assigned at level 6 and also discusses enhancements. They can also visit any of the IO crafting tutorial contacts available at level 10 to learn even more about enhancements. (And they can also just ask. That is why we have the Help channel, to get help in understanding the game.)

 

(Edit: And TOs and SOs also have labels that say what they do just like TOs did.)

Edited January 17 by Rudra

[Glacier Peak]

49 minutes ago, Maximum_J said:

While I understand that bringing in new players isn't necessarily a goal of Homecoming, the removal of Training Enhancements makes it harder to teach brand new players how the game works.

 

The big problem with having DOs drop from level 1 is that Enhancements don't make any sense to a new player, so gaining an Enhancement that you 1) can't use and 2) don't understand is off-putting for new players.

 

Training Enhancements clearly tell you what they do.  For example, if you're playing a Tanker and a TO: Hold drops, you can quickly figure out that it's not helpful for you specifically.  Now, I understand most of the current player base has years of experience with the system and can what a DO, SO, or IO is just from the border and color, but we also had the luxury of learning how Enhancements work from TOs.

 

At the very least, if TOs aren't going to be drops, then put them back in shops with the Superpowered Trainers.  Yeah, DOs are much more powerful, but that doesn't matter when you can't afford to buy them.

I think they're still in the game. They just don't drop from enemies anymore. 

[PeregrineFalcon]

54 minutes ago, Maximum_J said:

At the very least, if TOs aren't going to be drops, then put them back in shops with the Superpowered Trainers.  Yeah, DOs are much more powerful, but that doesn't matter when you can't afford to buy them.

I believe that currently you can buy them from the supergroup vendors. I agree that they should be sold by the vendor that's standing near the trainer in Atlas Park and Mercy Island.

 

Also, I'd recommend that they be just as strong as SO's but, like those special enhancements sold by the P2W vendor, they only work until the character reaches level 21. This would allow low level characters to effectively have SOs without having to pay SO prices.

[Maximum_J]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

New players can also do the tutorials which address enhancements briefly, and then the advanced tutorial for which the contact is automatically assigned at level 6 and also discusses enhancements. They can also visit any of the IO crafting tutorial contacts available at level 10 to learn even more about enhancements. (And they can also just ask. That is why we have the Help channel, to get help in understanding the game.)

 

(Edit: And TOs and SOs also have labels that say what they do just like TOs did.)

 

That's my whole point: New players shouldn't have to do homework to understand a fundamental game mechanic when there was already a built-in mechanic to teach them through gameplay.

 

What made TOs so useful in the first pllace was that you didn't have to do a lot of reading to understand them.  The Damage TO uses the same icon as damage powers, the Defense TO uses the same icon as defense powers, the Hold TO uses the same icon as hold powers, etc.  Even the ones that didn't match directly still made sense, like the Endurance TOs using the same icon as Catch a Breaths (which restore Endurance) and the Recharge Time TOs using a clock.

 

What I'm saying is that the change is an unnecessary hurdle to new players.  And, less importantly, the lack of TOs is a mild annoyance to returning players like me who don't have high-level alts to feed Influence/Infamy and other resources to their low-level characters, yet.

[Rudra]

8 minutes ago, Maximum_J said:

 

That's my whole point: New players shouldn't have to do homework to understand a fundamental game mechanic when there was already a built-in mechanic to teach them through gameplay.

 

What made TOs so useful in the first pllace was that you didn't have to do a lot of reading to understand them.  The Damage TO uses the same icon as damage powers, the Defense TO uses the same icon as defense powers, the Hold TO uses the same icon as hold powers, etc.  Even the ones that didn't match directly still made sense, like the Endurance TOs using the same icon as Catch a Breaths (which restore Endurance) and the Recharge Time TOs using a clock.

 

What I'm saying is that the change is an unnecessary hurdle to new players.  And, less importantly, the lack of TOs is a mild annoyance to returning players like me who don't have high-level alts to feed Influence/Infamy and other resources to their low-level characters, yet.

Except like I state in my edit you also quoted, no homework is required. Every enhancement has a label right in its name telling the player what it does. For instance, Power of Grey (Endurance Reduction) or Grace of Joule (Heal/Absorb). Those are the SOs' actual names. It isn't Power of Grey, then click to find what it does or go to wiki and find what it does or ask someone to find what it does. The literal name is "Power of Grey (Endurance Reduction)". Just like with the TO version having Endurance Reduction as its name. It's all right there in the name of the enhancement.

 

Edit: What the tutorials do is tell the player that as they level, they will need enhancements to keep pace with their enemies. Except for the IO crafting tutorial which teaches the player specifically about IO enhancements.

Edited January 17 by Rudra

[Maximum_J]

29 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Except like I state in my edit you also quoted, no homework is required. Every enhancement has a label right in its name telling the player what it does. For instance, Power of Grey (Endurance Reduction) or Grace of Joule (Heal/Absorb). Those are the SOs' actual names. It isn't Power of Grey, then click to find what it does or go to wiki and find what it does or ask someone to find what it does. The literal name is "Power of Grey (Endurance Reduction)". Just like with the TO version having Endurance Reduction as its name. It's all right there in the name of the enhancement.

 

Edit: What the tutorials do is tell the player that as they level, they will need enhancements to keep pace with their enemies. Except for the IO crafting tutorial which teaches the player specifically about IO enhancements.

 

I'll explain it one more time: TOs are simpler because the icons tell you what the enhancement does with minimal reading.  TOs are self-explanatory, none of the other enhancements are.  What's more clear: An enhancement with a targeting reticle that says "Training: Accuracy," or an enhancment with a humanoid silhouette that says "Visor, Natural/Magic (Accuracy)?"  Also, because TOs are simple to understand, it makes learning DOs and SOs easier because you can match them by the color of the TOs.

 

Additionally, DOs and SOs come with the added complication of having to match your origin.  That's fine, if a player is leaning heavy into their origin for RP, but removing TOs creates an unnecessary learning curve that's off-putting for new players.

[FupDup]

My hot take is that the different origin enhancements probably should not have existed in the first place. They add flavor but they also add bloat and make things muddier. I'd rather TO's (or whatever we want to call it) have the same values as SO's currently have and then have those be the main non-crafted enhancements. So basically it would be a cosmetic/convenience thing but your character wouldn't get any weaker or stronger from it. 

[Rudra]

26 minutes ago, Maximum_J said:

 

I'll explain it one more time: TOs are simpler because the icons tell you what the enhancement does with minimal reading.  TOs are self-explanatory, none of the other enhancements are.  What's more clear: An enhancement with a targeting reticle that says "Training: Accuracy," or an enhancment with a humanoid silhouette that says "Visor, Natural/Magic (Accuracy)?"  Also, because TOs are simple to understand, it makes learning DOs and SOs easier because you can match them by the color of the TOs.

 

Additionally, DOs and SOs come with the added complication of having to match your origin.  That's fine, if a player is leaning heavy into their origin for RP, but removing TOs creates an unnecessary learning curve that's off-putting for new players.

I was opposed to TOs being removed, but your logic still fails to me. You want to bring back TOs because it is easier to teach because the player can just look at it and know? Because seeing the name of the enhancement when it drops from the enemy, which is the first thing presented to you when you get it as a drop, or reading the enhancement from the vendor screen if you are buying it from a vendor or the AH is just too hard for a new player to do? Just how low of an opinion do you have of new players?

 

Also, yes, Training Origin enhancements are still in the game. They have not been removed. They just don't drop any more. However, like @PeregrineFalcon said, you can still buy them. SG vendors sell them. (They are still listed on the AH, but no one sells them on the AH since they don't drop.)

 

Edit: Also, your example fails. What is more clear between a targeting reticle that says "Training: Accuracy" or a humanoid silhouette that says "Visor (Accuracy)"? At a glance? They are equally clear. They both say "Accuracy".

 

Edited January 17 by Rudra
Edited to correct "to" to "it".

[Maximum_J]

8 hours ago, Rudra said:

I was opposed to TOs being removed, but your logic still fails to me. You want to bring back TOs because it is easier to teach because the player can just look at it and know? Because seeing the name of the enhancement when it drops from the enemy, which is the first thing presented to you when you get it as a drop, or reading the enhancement from the vendor screen if you are buying it from a vendor or the AH is just too hard for a new player to do? Just how low of an opinion do you have of new players?

 

Also, yes, Training Origin enhancements are still in the game. They have not been removed. They just don't drop any more. However, like @PeregrineFalcon said, you can still buy them. SG vendors sell them. (They are still listed on the AH, but no one sells them on the AH since they don't drop.)

 

Edit: Also, your example fails. What is more clear between a targeting reticle that says "Training: Accuracy" or a humanoid silhouette that says "Visor (Accuracy)"? At a glance? They are equally clear. They both say "Accuracy".

 

You're deliberately trying to miss my point.  The Visor also has a bunch of extra text about Origin and flavor text that has nothing to do with function.  Also, it should be pretty obvious that you don't have to hover over an enhancment to look at the icon.  You can tell what the targeting reticle is just by looking at it...

But more importantly, the other icons for TO *match the type of powers* they enhance... 😕

 

And yeah, going to the Auction House or joining a Super Group to get TOs when the whole point of them is to train new players is asinine.  You're seriously suggesting that, instead of just having TOs readily available, new players should learn to navigate Super Groups and the Auction House, *then* train on TOs?  The *entire* purpose of my post is to eliminate hurdles to learning Enhancements... 

 

And my "low opinion" of new players isn't a low opinion.  It's from practical experience I had this weekend bringing in friends to play, only to have to stop the flow of fun to explain Enhancements to people with zero background in CoX.  I ended just telling them to forget about Enhancements for the time being and let's just get back hunting Clockwork 😕

 

And the chat box telling a new player that an enhancment dropped is absolutely unhelpful when the player *doesn't understand what enhancments are yet!*

Edited January 18 by Maximum_J

[Rudra]

10 minutes ago, Maximum_J said:

You're deliberately trying to miss my point.  The Visor also has a bunch of extra text about Origin and flavor text that has nothing to do with function.  Also, it should be pretty obvious that you don't have to hover over an enhancment to look at the icon.  You can tell what the targeting reticle is just by looking at it...

But more importantly, the other icons for TO *match the type of powers* they enhance... 😕

 

And yeah, going to the Auction House or joining a Super Group to get TOs when the whole point of them is to train new players is asinine.  You're seriously suggesting that, instead of just having TOs readily available, new players should learn to navigate Super Groups and the Auction House, *then* train on TOs?  The *entire* purpose of my post is to eliminate hurdles to learning Enhancements... 

 

And my "low opinion" of new players isn't a low opinion.  It's from practical experience I had this weekend bringing in friends to play, only to have to stop the flow of fun to explain Enhancements to people with zero background in CoX.  I ended just telling them to forget about Enhancements for the time being and let's just get back hunting Clockwork 😕

 

And the chat box telling a new player that an enhancment dropped is absolutely unhelpful when the player *doesn't understand what enhancments are yet!*

A new player can just look at the DO's or SO's name and listed origin(s), and know whether that enhancement works for their origin or not, as well as what that enhancement does. You don't need TOs to learn about enhancements. You get two enhancements for free in the tutorial, as well as basic instructions on what they are and how to use them in that tutorial. Whether they go with Outbreak, Breakout, Galaxy City, or whatever the Praetorian initial tutorial is called. And a new player is likely, not guaranteed, not will always, but is likely to go through one of those four tutorials to get a feel for the game. If they don't? They are apparently confident enough in their own ability to figure the game out. They aren't stupid. 'Oh no! They have to take a look at the enhancement to know what it is? How horrible!' Seriously? You're entire argument is a litany of belittlement. That may not be your intent, but new players can play the game just fine without TOs. (Especially since it was us players, not the devs, requesting TOs go the way of the dodo.)

 

On top of that? The best way to learn the game, or at least the fastest if you don't want to read through the wiki, is to team with more experienced players and learn from them. And SGs do that well. 'Oh no! There is a reason for players to team and even join SGs?! How horrible!' It's almost like I'm treating this game as a multiplayer game of some sort.

 

So yeah, while I am not a fan of TOs being removed (actually, just hidden away), I still see no reason to bring them back. New players have their own brains to understand things, have not just (4 versions of) 1, but 3 different tutorials they can go through to learn about enhancements, have the entire community they can lean on for information, and as much as you seem to hate it, can read what those enhancements are from the enhancements themselves.

[Uun]

The layering of origin on top of the enhancement system no longer serves a purpose. Back in the early days, origin stores only sold the 10 primary enhancement types and you had to buy the other 14 enhancement types from the mission contact of your origin after unlocking their store. The level 40-50 stores were contacts that you had to unlock in order to buy SOs and further unlock to buy more than the 10 primary types. At some point this tier system was abandoned and stores/contacts sold all 24 enhancement types. Frankly, I don't even know if you still have to unlock Serafina and the other store contacts, as there are now plenty of vendors that don't need to be unlocked.

 

There's no reason there should be 10 different variants for each type of DO and 5 different variants for each type of SO, only 20% of which can be used on your character. It adds needless complexity and inundates players with drops they can't use. Origin should be eliminated from the DO/SO system and there should only be 1 variant of each enhancement type (as reflected in the IO system).

[Doc_Scorpion]

7 hours ago, Maximum_J said:

It's from practical experience I had this weekend bringing in friends to play, only to have to stop the flow of fun to explain Enhancements to people with zero background in CoX. 

I have never played any game where you didn't have to stop the flow at one or more points in order to explain one of more game concepts to new players.  And it's not clear to me that bringing back TO's will prevent that - because you still have to "stop the flow" to explain what enhancements are, how they work, and how they're used.  Slotting and enhancements are fundamental to playing CoX, and you're doing your friends no favors by not doing so.

That being said, if you absolutely must have TO's, they're still available from the Longbow Quartermaster inside the Freedom Corps building east of City Hall.  You don't need a supergroup.

[Coyotedancer]

When we were teaching the CoyoteNephews and their mom to play, we spent maybe ten minutes describing the Origins and the basic tiers... and then pointed out the colors matching across types. That's all it really took for them to understand the system, what they needed and what to look for.  They honestly didn't seem to find it all that difficult. 

[Greycat]

21 hours ago, Maximum_J said:

While I understand that bringing in new players isn't necessarily a goal of Homecoming, the removal of Training Enhancements makes it harder to teach brand new players how the game works.

 

The big problem with having DOs drop from level 1 is that Enhancements don't make any sense to a new player, so gaining an Enhancement that you 1) can't use and 2) don't understand is off-putting for new players.

 

Training Enhancements clearly tell you what they do.  For example, if you're playing a Tanker and a TO: Hold drops, you can quickly figure out that it's not helpful for you specifically.  Now, I understand most of the current player base has years of experience with the system and can what a DO, SO, or IO is just from the border and color, but we also had the luxury of learning how Enhancements work from TOs.

 

At the very least, if TOs aren't going to be drops, then put them back in shops with the Superpowered Trainers.  Yeah, DOs are much more powerful, but that doesn't matter when you can't afford to buy them.

 

So a few thoughts on this:

 

With the last point first, "that doesn't matter when you can't afford to buy them?" Well, they ... drop. As you play the game. If a new player gets sucked into a DFB instead of running missions? They drop as a reward there, too. And... sell for more than TOs did, which will help later affordability (even ignoring non obvious things like "use those first merits to buy converters to drop on the AH for the first several hundred thousand to million inf," which no, no new player should be expected to know about.)

 

Also, we outpaced TOs to where they felt like a hinderance and drop-trash *really* quickly on live... and we outpace them even *faster* here, even without XP boosts on servers, 2xp and the like.  Which might seem like an argument *for* TOs - it doesn't "hurt" as much financially when you see you have a bunch of grey TOs - but those grey DOs and SOs still sell for more.

 

As far as clearly saying what they do? I hover over it, it says whatever-the-name, (what it does.) Xenon Exposure (Damage.) Amulet (Recharge.) No digging. And by hovering over it, it ALSO has in bright red text a warning you can't use it if the origin doesn't match - IE, "Hey, sell me for money to buy what you need!"  The stores? Unless you explicitly tell it otherwise, they don't *show* you enhancements you can't use.

 

And, I'd argue, having the SOs available from level 1, even if you can't buy them, means the player gets used to *what does what* for their character. They don't *have* to go from "Training: Accuracy" to "I'm looking for a Visor now" to "Wait, it's called Insight of Grey now?" They can see that in the store right away. Which I'd argue  makes it *easier* for a new player.

 

There's also "you can quickly find out it's not for you" - you're not necessarily going to know *right off the bat* that a hold enhancement, *whatever* it's called, isn't for you. Until you go to slot it and see nothing lighting up that takes it. And that'll happen regardless of if it's called Hold or Stickiness of Frank or whatever. (And a Tank, for instance, *can* use a hold. For instance, Super Strength - Knockout Blow - not a power most SS users would skip - takes Hold enhancements. Ice tanks have holds. And so forth.)

 

9 hours ago, Maximum_J said:

The Visor also has a bunch of extra text about Origin and flavor text that has nothing to do with function.  Also, it should be pretty obvious that you don't have to hover over an enhancment to look at the icon.  You can tell what the targeting reticle is just by looking at it...

 

Visor (Accuracy) is the very first thing listed - it's the only thing you see in the store, none of the flavor text, and it's the very topmost line if you hover over it - you don't have to dig through flavor text. Or dragging another example from an in game character right now -

 

"Xenon Exposure (Damage)

Enhances Damage (in case the "Damage" at the end didn't give that away first.)

Experiment (Science)

Exposure to Xenon gas has enabled you to augment the damage of one of your attack powers. Increases damage by 33.3%.

 

You cannot use this enhancement because of your Magic origin."

 

You see the name, what it does.

A second line saying basically what it does.

A line giving origin.

As far as "flavor text," it's ... one sentence. Then *again* saying what it does with more detail.

And then a line that only shows up if you *can't* use it, and why.

 

Now, arguably, that "you cannot use" line should show up earlier, but... I don't see what would be confusing about this to a new player. And as they look, oh, it's red. They have others that are red and do the same thing. Red must increase damage!

 

Honestly, I'd say calling this such a big problem for new players is doing new players a disservice.

[Maximum_J]

2 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

I have never played any game where you didn't have to stop the flow at one or more points in order to explain one of more game concepts to new players.  And it's not clear to me that bringing back TO's will prevent that - because you still have to "stop the flow" to explain what enhancements are, how they work, and how they're used.  Slotting and enhancements are fundamental to playing CoX, and you're doing your friends no favors by not doing so.

That being said, if you absolutely must have TO's, they're still available from the Longbow Quartermaster inside the Freedom Corps building east of City Hall.  You don't need a supergroup.

 

That's actually useful information.  It still slows down the flow of fun by having to stop and go out of the way to get a training element that was intergrated to the gameplay, but we'll look into the Longbow Trainer.  I only checked the Superpower Field Trainers and the Origin contacts.

 

It would still be simpler to just have them drop again, though.

[Maximum_J]

52 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

So a few thoughts on this:

 

With the last point first, "that doesn't matter when you can't afford to buy them?" Well, they ... drop. As you play the game. If a new player gets sucked into a DFB instead of running missions? They drop as a reward there, too. And... sell for more than TOs did, which will help later affordability (even ignoring non obvious things like "use those first merits to buy converters to drop on the AH for the first several hundred thousand to million inf," which no, no new player should be expected to know about.)

 

Also, we outpaced TOs to where they felt like a hinderance and drop-trash *really* quickly on live... and we outpace them even *faster* here, even without XP boosts on servers, 2xp and the like.  Which might seem like an argument *for* TOs - it doesn't "hurt" as much financially when you see you have a bunch of grey TOs - but those grey DOs and SOs still sell for more.

 

As far as clearly saying what they do? I hover over it, it says whatever-the-name, (what it does.) Xenon Exposure (Damage.) Amulet (Recharge.) No digging. And by hovering over it, it ALSO has in bright red text a warning you can't use it if the origin doesn't match - IE, "Hey, sell me for money to buy what you need!"  The stores? Unless you explicitly tell it otherwise, they don't *show* you enhancements you can't use.

 

And, I'd argue, having the SOs available from level 1, even if you can't buy them, means the player gets used to *what does what* for their character. They don't *have* to go from "Training: Accuracy" to "I'm looking for a Visor now" to "Wait, it's called Insight of Grey now?" They can see that in the store right away. Which I'd argue  makes it *easier* for a new player.

 

There's also "you can quickly find out it's not for you" - you're not necessarily going to know *right off the bat* that a hold enhancement, *whatever* it's called, isn't for you. Until you go to slot it and see nothing lighting up that takes it. And that'll happen regardless of if it's called Hold or Stickiness of Frank or whatever. (And a Tank, for instance, *can* use a hold. For instance, Super Strength - Knockout Blow - not a power most SS users would skip - takes Hold enhancements. Ice tanks have holds. And so forth.)

 

 

Visor (Accuracy) is the very first thing listed - it's the only thing you see in the store, none of the flavor text, and it's the very topmost line if you hover over it - you don't have to dig through flavor text. Or dragging another example from an in game character right now -

 

"Xenon Exposure (Damage)

Enhances Damage (in case the "Damage" at the end didn't give that away first.)

Experiment (Science)

Exposure to Xenon gas has enabled you to augment the damage of one of your attack powers. Increases damage by 33.3%.

 

You cannot use this enhancement because of your Magic origin."

 

You see the name, what it does.

A second line saying basically what it does.

A line giving origin.

As far as "flavor text," it's ... one sentence. Then *again* saying what it does with more detail.

And then a line that only shows up if you *can't* use it, and why.

 

Now, arguably, that "you cannot use" line should show up earlier, but... I don't see what would be confusing about this to a new player. And as they look, oh, it's red. They have others that are red and do the same thing. Red must increase damage!

 

Honestly, I'd say calling this such a big problem for new players is doing new players a disservice.

 

I'm playing with new players.  I'm not guessing or playing with hypotheticals here.  I'm telling what my experience is with brand new players who've never played the game before.

 

I, myself, have played CoX from the original launch to the original end of life, so I can also tell you from personal experience that TOs made learning to use significantly easier.  Once again, the icons match.  There's no hovering or reading necessary.

 

The reason why I used the Visor as specific example is because I played so many Magic heroes over the years that, even a decade later, I still have it memorized.  I feel like everyone who's arguing with me has that level of experience and doesn't remember their first week playing the game (which makes sense because that would have been 15-20 years ago).

 

Taking out TOs makes it easier for older players like me, but it's an unnecessary hurdle for new players.  Again, this is not a thought experiment.  I'm telling you what I experienced last weekend.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Maximum_J said:

 

I'm playing with new players.  I'm not guessing or playing with hypotheticals here.  I'm telling what my experience is with brand new players who've never played the game before.

 

I, myself, have played CoX from the original launch to the original end of life, so I can also tell you from personal experience that TOs made learning to use significantly easier.  Once again, the icons match.  There's no hovering or reading necessary.

 

The reason why I used the Visor as specific example is because I played so many Magic heroes over the years that, even a decade later, I still have it memorized.  I feel like everyone who's arguing with me has that level of experience and doesn't remember their first week playing the game (which makes sense because that would have been 15-20 years ago).

 

Taking out TOs makes it easier for older players like me, but it's an unnecessary hurdle for new players.  Again, this is not a thought experiment.  I'm telling you what I experienced last weekend.

But your complaint is that you had to pause playing to explain a game concept. Which you would have to do with TOs as well if they were no longer hidden. And for TFs. And for trials. And for raids. And for hidden contacts. And for incarnates. You see where this is going? Surprising as the thought may be, some of the rest of us also deal with new players. And they are not stupid. Yes, because they are new to the game, we have to explain things to them. And that will stop game play while you are explaining. I can't count how many times I or someone I was playing with stopped to explain what TOs were and how to use them back on Live. Because those enhancements you think will prevent the need to stop playing and explain? Still need to be explained to some new players. And that is why there are the tutorials. And that is why there is the Help channel. And that is why there are teaching SGs being maintained by some groups of players. And that is why the enhancements say right on them what they are and what they do. And that is why the wiki exists. And we have a community pretty well renowned for being supportive of new players. New players are not stupid, and a quick explanation for DOs or SOs or even set IOs has always in my experience been more than enough to get them to understand. Did we have to stop playing while the explanation was being given? Yes. It never takes long to explain anything new to the player though, and then the game play resumes.

 

Edit: And I would have to say the more off-putting thing to new players is being told to just forget it because they are interrupting your ability to have fun. You said those new players were your friends that you were bringing in to the game. And yet, when your friends turned to you for help, your response was basically 'You're slowing me down. Shut up so I can have fun. You can learn how to have fun as well another time.'

Edited January 18 by Rudra

[Maximum_J]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

But your complaint is that you had to pause playing to explain a game concept. Which you would have to do with TOs as well if they were no longer hidden. And for TFs. And for trials. And for raids. And for hidden contacts. And for incarnates. You see where this is going? Surprising as the thought may be, some of the rest of us also deal with new players. And they are not stupid. Yes, because they are new to the game, we have to explain things to them. And that will stop game play while you are explaining. I can't count how many times I or someone I was playing with stopped to explain what TOs were and how to use them back on Live. Because those enhancements you think will prevent the need to stop playing and explain? Still need to be explained to some new players. And that is why there are the tutorials. And that is why there is the Help channel. And that is why there are teaching SGs being maintained by some groups of players. And that is why the enhancements say right on them what they are and what they do. And that is why the wiki exists. And we have a community pretty well renowned for being supportive of new players. New players are not stupid, and a quick explanation for DOs or SOs or even set IOs has always in my experience been more than enough to get them to understand. Did we have to stop playing while the explanation was being given? Yes. It never takes long to explain anything new to the player though, and then the game play resumes.

 

Edit: And I would have to say the more off-putting thing to new players is being told to just forget it because they are interrupting your ability to have fun. You said those new players were your friends that you were bringing in to the game. And yet, when your friends turned to you for help, your response was basically 'You're slowing me down. Shut up so I can have fun. You can learn how to have fun as well another time.'

 

First of all, you need to stop making ad hominem attacks.

 

I said that *my friends* weren't having fun listening to me ramble about enhancements.  I could talk all day about CoX, but surprisingly, they didn't carve out hours of their lives to listen to me talk about a game instead of playing it themselves.

 

Imagine teaching a 3-year old to ride a bike.  What's going to be more fun for them: 1) slapping training wheels on their bike and letting them ride it, or 2) teaching them how to read, then giving them a manual about how to ride a bike?

 

I don't know why this is difficult to understand.

[Rudra]

24 minutes ago, Maximum_J said:

 

First of all, you need to stop making ad hominem attacks.

 

I said that *my friends* weren't having fun listening to me ramble about enhancements.  I could talk all day about CoX, but surprisingly, they didn't carve out hours of their lives to listen to me talk about a game instead of playing it themselves.

 

Imagine teaching a 3-year old to ride a bike.  What's going to be more fun for them: 1) slapping training wheels on their bike and letting them ride it, or 2) teaching them how to read, then giving them a manual about how to ride a bike?

 

I don't know why this is difficult to understand.

I'm not making ad hominem attacks. Don't worry though. This is going in circles. I've said my piece.

[Maximum_J]

For clarity, here is my main point in one sentence:

 

"The removal of Training Enhancements at the beginning of the game makes it more difficult for brand new players to immerse themselves in the game."

 

If you're arguing against anything other than that, then you're missing my point.  The removal of TOs for someone like me who's played CoX for nearly a decade before it shut down doesn't matter because I already know and understand the game.

 

All I'm trying to say is that making TOs easy to access helps new players significantly more than it harms experienced players.  That's it.

Edited January 19 by Maximum_J

[A.I.D.A.]

On 1/17/2024 at 12:11 PM, Maximum_J said:

The big problem with having DOs drop from level 1 is that Enhancements don't make any sense to a new player, so gaining an Enhancement that you 1) can't use and 2) don't understand is off-putting for new players.

 

Are new players incapable of reading tooltips and parsing them? Because it should only require basic reading comprehension to understand what "Dual-Origin (Magic, Mutation) ~ increases a power's Damage by X%" means.