Redside... Best side? Right??

[Vic Raiden]

Yeah, I don't deny that. It's every bit as much of a pipe dream as either getting the option to backstab every contact one doesn't like, or having a tailor-made tip-like mission chain for personal ambition... Just a matter of letting the player feel more in control of their own villainy, or at least not as a fall guy to some random fellas.

 

Once again, that's what I like about the dedicated rogue arcs: the open-endedness in giving multiple ways of going about them.

[Eiko-chan]

5 hours ago, Vic Raiden said:

the Zig, a prison supposedly built for the biggest deals in the world of villainy.

The Zig was built for super-powered villains - precisely what starting villains are. Being housed in the Zig isn't a matter of how much of a bad-ass you are. It's because you have super-powers; the Zig has power-negating technology that other prisons do not.

[Vic Raiden]

Right, thanks for clarifying.

 

I really don't know what to add to this thread anymore without rehashing previous points, such as the inconsistently-characterized-lackey-for-hire syndrome the bulk of content suffers from. From what I've seen, many people avoid redside either because they'd rather play hero, because playing a villain doesn't feel as satisfying as expected, or because blueside has more content/more players/whatever.

 

Not even sure how much could be done, much less in short term, given CoX's current state...

[tidge]

I made my points earlier in the thread about my preference for the Redside content, yet I typically play Blueside. I think my reasons are:

• It is easier to level at whatever pace (slow, fast) I choose.

That's not to say it is impossible to level quickly redside, but because I like the arcs more, the red starting zone being harder to travel in, fewer players all contribute to this.

• The Red starting zone is a PITA. Grandville is also no cakewalk/cakejump/cakefly.

Aside from the travel being "complicated", I kinda hate the "defeat 5 snakes" early mission when I have to travel around for 15 minutes trying to find some open-world spawns of them.

• Content is more familiar, and useful accolades are mostly more straightforward/easy to work towards blue side.

This is like, just my opinion, but often I will take villains blueside to get two of the statboosts, whereas I only take heroes red to get one of them.

 

[Eiko-chan]

2 hours ago, tidge said:

Aside from the travel being "complicated", I kinda hate the "defeat 5 snakes" early mission when I have to travel around for 15 minutes trying to find some open-world spawns of them.

There is a coastal warehouse in west-central Mercy whose roof is almost always occupied by a dozen or more Snakes.

[tidge]

"almost always"

[PhotriusPyrelus]

On 1/19/2024 at 9:48 PM, Dev Unitas said:

I'd simply like to ask why people personally think this is, beyond the clear recursive chicken-and-egg situation (ie. less players leads to less players). It's intriguing, because I've seen a decently common sentiment that Redside has higher quality content overall. I've also seen the atmosphere of the zones as a reason why people don't play there.

I just don't really have any interest in being a villain.  Some games, okey (GTA for example), but City of Heroes?  I didn't grow up wanting to be Lex Luthor.  I wanted to be Superman.

The only reason I had any interest in villain side in live was because I was already invested in and enjoyed the gameplay, and villains had exclusive access to certain ATs (Corruptor and Master Mind specifically).  Now they do not.  There is no reason to play a Villain for me now.  And frankly, those two ATs no longer really hold much interest for me any more.

Let me put it this way: if City of Villains launched first over City of Heroes, I would have ignored the game entirely.

EDIT (of course I only remember this *after* hitting "Post"):
Also, as someone pointed out in chat a few days ago: Villains are just leg-breakers.  They're not actually villains, they're just henchmen, because you *can't* be a real villain in an MMO.  Villains are active, not reactive.  They initiate schemes and plans, they don't do other peoples' bidding (read: missions/quests); minions, mooks, flunkies, lackeys, they do the bidding, not the villain.  So right from go, it fails the fantasy of being an actual villain.  You're not a villain, you're a super-powered toady to an actual villain.

The closest to this gameplay you can find AFAIK is in Payday and GTA5/O, but even there, there's very limited input from the player himself, because there can't be much, because it's a video game and it's extremely hard to make actual free-form content.  Take something as simple as "rob the Paragon Bank".  How are you going to do it?  Walk in the front door and rob the front?  Blow a hole in the vault wall after hours and steal straight from it?  Dig under the bank and through the vault floor?  Steal the armored truck and impersonate it while it makes a pick up from the vault to transfer the money to a more secure location?  And that's just off the top of my head.  There's so many ways to do it, but how do you program for all those possibilities?!

And then what about reward?  GTA5/O has this same problem.  There's millions of dollars in a bank.  You steal it all and now you can buy whatever you want.  GTA tackles this by making most things comically over-priced, which robs the job of most of its value.  That's the second problem: villains have to lose.  Why?  Because the stakes are too high, even for "simple" villainy like "rob the bank".  It gets even worse when you get into the higher-end comic-book villainy.  You can't have an MMO where a player can execute a scheme to blow up Atlas Park (or break California off into the ocean so all the Nevada desert property you bought for pennies per acre becomes beach-front and the value increases by orders of magnitude).  You'd wind up with the 2B2T.

Villains must lose because their whole point is to change the status quo, and an MMO can't operate with a constantly-shifting status quo.

On the other hand, Heroes are by their very nature reactive.  Something happens, hero responds.  The Vazhilok are kidnapping people, go rescue them.  The Hellions stole a magical mcguffin, go get it back.  The Clockwork are breaking things, go stop them.  They are agents of the status quo, keeping the peace so the citizenry can go about their daily lives.

Edited May 17 by PhotriusPyrelus

[Vic Raiden]

CoV wouldn't really let you play a Lex Luthor character anyway. What many large-scale supervillains like him do just isn't very compatible with the MMORPG gameplay loop of running around and doing quests for NPCs.

 

As far as commanding legions of minions go, the Mastermind archetype is the closest thing and it doesn't even let you have any more than six minions at a time barring the Thugs primary's Gang War attack. And even then you're stuck running errands for random questgivers.

Edited May 17 by Vic Raiden

[Rudra]

6 hours ago, Vic Raiden said:

CoV wouldn't really let you play a Lex Luthor character anyway. What many large-scale supervillains like him do just isn't very compatible with the MMORPG gameplay loop of running around and doing quests for NPCs.

 

As far as commanding legions of minions go, the Mastermind archetype is the closest thing and it doesn't even let you have any more than six minions at a time barring the Thugs primary's Gang War attack. And even then you're stuck running errands for random questgivers.

You can also get another pet from your secondary. Though the only one I can think of is the Dark Servant from Dark Miasma.

[Eiko-chan]

On 1/19/2024 at 8:48 PM, Dev Unitas said:

As we all know, player interest is lower overall in City of Villains content, with populations being consistently lower than heroes by a significant margin. I'd simply like to ask why people personally think this is, beyond the clear recursive chicken-and-egg situation (ie. less players leads to less players). It's intriguing, because I've seen a decently common sentiment that Redside has higher quality content overall. I've also seen the atmosphere of the zones as a reason why people don't play there.

I say this as a redside native, who only got access to blueside when they merged the games back in whatever Issue that was. I came in with City of Villains and was almost exclusively still redside until shutdown:

Assuming the figures I've seen in here posted are correct, you probably should expect a 90/10 split between CoV and CoH. That lines up fairly nicely with Bioware's stats for Paragon/Renegade plays in Mass Effect. Generally speaking, only about 10% of the population is really interested in villainy as a pastime to begin with.

I suspect, but have no data to back up, that there is a fairly heavy overlap between CoV players and "forever GMs" in TTRPG groups. 

[Vic Raiden]

On 5/16/2024 at 3:35 PM, Eiko-chan said:

The Zig was built for super-powered villains - precisely what starting villains are. Being housed in the Zig isn't a matter of how much of a bad-ass you are. It's because you have super-powers; the Zig has power-negating technology that other prisons do not.

...on the other hand, we're talking about a world where even mundane weapons and martial arts are somehow considered superpowers, which does muddle things more than a bit, if you ask me.

[Eiko-chan]

1 minute ago, Vic Raiden said:

...on the other hand, we're talking about a world where even mundane weapons and martial arts are somehow considered superpowers, which does muddle things more than a bit, if you ask me.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
While owning a gun and having advanced training are explicitly "super powers" under Praetorian law, their status on Primal Earth are more nebulous. It's up to each individual player to decide why their Natural Origin villains wound up in the Zig. (Of course, if you're 'Natural' because you're an alien, that's pretty easy to answer.)
Or not, since you can just skip the tutorial now, and the Galaxy City one doesn't assume an arrest.

[Triumphant]

If you're a normal guy with martial arts and an assault rifle, and you're dangerous enough, you might still go in there ( in solitary confinement- for your own protection).  Batman and the Punisher are "normal" humans.  But if they existed in the COH universe and decided to go bad, you can bet we would want them locked up in the Zig.  Those guys can break out of any normal facility, and they can do a LOT of damage.

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, Triumphant said:

If you're a normal guy with martial arts and an assault rifle, and you're dangerous enough, you might still go in there ( in solitary confinement- for your own protection).  Batman and the Punisher are "normal" humans.  But if they existed in the COH universe and decided to go bad, you can bet we would want them locked up in the Zig.  Those guys can break out of any normal facility, and they can do a LOT of damage.

There are even 2 Justice League episodes where that happens. In the Justice Lords' universe, Batman and a few other Leaguers are being held specifically in the Justice Lords' Batman's prison because they are all so dangerous. With the Justice Lord Batman paying extra attention to Batman and applying more restraints on him than the others. In another episode where the League goes to turn themselves in to prove their innocence, only Batman doesn't. However, they are sent to a military facility rather than a normal prison to account for their powers, including Batman (if he had shown up). So in CoX, regardless of your origin or powers/weapons, you are probably sent to the Zig because you are considered that much of a threat even as a level 1 villain. (Hells, every time you find yourself going through the Zig, you see what are considered non-threats by us players being held there. In the tutorial, there are rank and file Skulls and Hellions being held in the Zig.)

[Vic Raiden]

I don't know what to view that as. Either the authorities have cracked down so hard on crime that they send literally everyone to the maximum-security prison regardless of committed crimes or posed threat, or it's literally the only prison around designed specifically for as wide a variety of inmates as possible.

 

Either way, the logic of superhero settings is wack.

[megaericzero]

3 hours ago, Vic Raiden said:

Either the authorities have cracked down so hard on crime that they send literally everyone to the maximum-security prison regardless of committed crimes

It's not a radical assumption. The escaped prisoners hanging around in Brickstown only have a rock and pipe/knife/brawl as attacks. Not even a handgun until lieutenant rank, let alone any superhuman abilities - natural or otherwise. 😛

Edited May 18 by megaericzero

[Eiko-chan]

11 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

It's not a radical assumption. The escaped prisoners hanging around in Brickstown only have a rock and pipe/knife/brawl as attacks. Not even a handgun until lieutenant rank, let alone any superhuman abilities - natural or otherwise. 😛

Those are all the Technology Origins who have no powers without their gadgets. 😉

[Vic Raiden]

See, this is a whole other can of worms... Back in the day, being a superhero used to actually mean something. You were special, somebody the common folk would look up to and place their faith in.

Nowadays? Supers are a dime a dozen, so much so that there exists a whole dedicated government bureau specifically for categorizing and monitoring them, and all the specialness of being one is just GONE. Now literally EVERYONE can be a superhero because sources of superpowers are being sold in publicly accessible shops.

[FupDup]

2 hours ago, Vic Raiden said:

See, this is a whole other can of worms... Back in the day, being a superhero used to actually mean something. You were special, somebody the common folk would look up to and place their faith in.

Nowadays? Supers are a dime a dozen, so much so that there exists a whole dedicated government bureau specifically for categorizing and monitoring them, and all the specialness of being one is just GONE. Now literally EVERYONE can be a superhero because sources of superpowers are being sold in publicly accessible shops.

 

 

Edited May 19 by FupDup

[AmbiguousOmen]

No joke, arriving in Sharkhead Isle at level 20 and being told to do 5 paper missions and a mayhem mission just to be introduced to a contact is pretty miserable! Plus, it's very likely to make you outlevel the contacts themselves, since both possible chains start with 2 contacts with 20-24 ranges.

In short, I'd also prefer the Broker system to be reviewed. It'd also provide an opportunity to take a page out of the Praetoria mission arcs and inform the player a bit better about what their villain is getting into.

 

But a lot of other people have said that already. I wanted to focus instead on the other issue that has been brought up: the lack of an Atlas Plaza equivalent for hanging out casually and people-watching.

Personally, I don't think there's a good way to convert Mercy Island into this kind of space. The main square where you spawn out of the tutorial lacks the symbolic power of the combination of the Atlas statue and the City Hall, and Mercy itself is an example of the worst aspects of Rogue Island map design: half the island is a slum, and the other half is a giant Arachnos fort. It's really dreary and oppressive, and there's no in-story reason for high-level villains to be hanging around there.

 

Instead, I'd like to suggest that St. Martial is a much better candidate for creating a villain hang-out:

1. It's a pleasure district. Being a hero is about responsibility, but being a villain is about having fun.
2. Arachnos presence is minimal. You can focus on your own story.
3. Narratively, a casino district can accommodate crimes spanning a large range of levels: Low-level villains can be scamming or stealing from clueless tourists, high-level villains can be cutting corrupt deals with world leaders inside the Golden Giza.
4. The Golden Giza is both iconic and symbolic. It's an architectural landmark to rival Atlas's Statue. A giant casino also doubles as a temple to greed, making it a dark mirror to the temple to public service that is City Hall.

So that would be my recommendation. Make St. Martial into a proper hub space, specifically the south-western island and southern islands (Double Down and Babylon).

• Add all sorts of transportation options around the ferry (SG base, Pocket D access, a submarine to go blueside, etc). Maybe a marina full of yachts or something, for better flavor.
• Build a bridge east to the Babylon area/Golden Giza, for easier access to the Arbiter.
• Optional: Add more of a tourist/party atmosphere. Change the skybox to something sunnier.
• Add the following option to both tutorial versions: "Hijack the helicopter and head for St. Martial. You'll make your own fortune." Characters who forgo the tutorial also get dropped here instead of St. Martial. Kalinda and co. suggest you head to St. Martial after your first set of missions, if you do choose the options that start you in Mercy.
• Once players arrive, they can pick up a newspaper from a broker NPC and run some level-appropriate missions with all the doors inside Double Down. Ideally, players will instead run Death From Below, but an early bank job would be a fantastic experience for a new player instead of caves full of snakes.
• Move Dr. Graves and his first set of missions here instead of Mercy.

[Eiko-chan]

Back on the live servers, every time the Cape Radio did Villain Nights, they were in the Golden Giza. There's even a (fairly small) dance floor in there. It'd be a fair amount of work, but St. Martial is a great candidate for this. 

[Lunar Ronin]

Making a level 30 to 40 zone the new starter zone is, IMO, a non-starter.  You could have level one or five characters easily go into areas with level 35 mobs and get slaughtered.

 

Also, Cap au Diable is already the red side hub zone.  You have a SG base portal, Cimeroa, RWZ, Black Market, ferry, and university all very close together.

[Clave Dark 5]

On 5/18/2024 at 6:38 PM, FupDup said:

 

Yeah, but that guy was a weenie nihilist loser.  😃 

[Jack Power]

My personal issue with CoV is that the whole premiss. I have to date never made a character that would be the least interested in working with/for/in Arachnos. That leads to the entire red side  being a stretch for me. I dislike the brokers as well. The condesending attitude others have pointed to is also nothing I think is helping.

 

I'd like to see a more free flowing contact web where it's more transperant what the contact really want you to do. More rougish or more villainous arcs and some ability to pick and choose the way you want to travel.

 

//Jack

[Vic Raiden]

Looking at the old Prima guide reminded me that Arachnos apparently didn't even use to exist prior to CoV's launch, and apparently was only made so that redside players could have some overarching master/support network like blueside's Freedom Corps. Except it kinda falls flat because not only are Arachnos troops valid enemies everywhere except overworld Mercy, but the content is kind of schizophrenic about whether you're supposed to be working for, alongside, or against Arachnos - and even at the highest levels, your actions mean almost nothing beyond clapping some redside-exclusive competing villain forces.

 

And even apparentlier, some old plan for CoV was that you'd be able to join one of the pre-established forces of evil depending on your character's origin. All I can say here is I wish that indeed came to pass...

Edited May 21 by Vic Raiden