Ally only powers

[arcane]

On 2/12/2024 at 5:54 AM, Maxzero said:

 

Lol no it wouldn't thats complete nonsense.

 

My Controller would still be better off with Time or Dark.

Yeah I don’t assume you understand the numbers. Self-buffing Empathy would have far more mitigation than Time of Dark. 

[SeraphimKensai]

Hmmm the min maxer in me wants to be okay with self-effecting buffs, but the advocate against power creep in me doesn't want to make the game already easier.

 

As someone that mained a PvP Empathy Defender in live yes there's been some times I wish I could clear my own mind, but I realize the powerset is about Empathy.

 

The definition of Empathy is: the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.

 

So if these buffs work on the empath themselves how does that match the definition of the term as there's no other to be empathetic to.

 

I think I'm against these proposed changes, but I do thing Empathy needs something, and maybe that something could be really unique like buffs to it based on who you buff with your powers, but at a cost of perhaps a shared nexus of pain, so you take a percentage of the incoming damage to others or such?

[Psyonico]

On 2/12/2024 at 4:54 AM, Maxzero said:

 

Lol no it wouldn't thats complete nonsense.

 

My Controller would still be better off with Time or Dark.

I'm going to remind you that what others and I are talking about is on SOs only, Empathy my not scale as well as other sets when it comes to IOs, but a self-buffing Empathy defender doesn't even *need* IOs to do the things we're talking about.

[Psyonico]

On 2/12/2024 at 4:54 AM, Maxzero said:

 

Lol no it wouldn't thats complete nonsense.

 

My Controller would still be better off with Time or Dark.

I'm going to remind you that what others and I are talking about is on SOs only, Empathy my not scale as well as other sets when it comes to IOs, but a self-buffing Empathy defender doesn't even *need* IOs to do the things we're talking about.

[Duckbutler]

I personally just don't play certain powersets if I don't get enough personal benefit from them. So it's not like these powers not affecting me means I team instead of solo. It means I have  slightly fewer character options available. So I don't think it would be the worst thing in the world, but I do think there are broader implications for the game that would probably require some rebalancing. Possibly of the entire game. 

[biostem]

12 hours ago, Maxzero said:

So you are telling me if Empathy had self castable Fortitude and Clear mind it would be better then Dark Affinity or Time Manipulation for soloing?

Nice moving the goalposts there.  Fort & CM, if castable on yourself, are better than many armor sets, and that's not counting the 2 RAs you already have available.

[biostem]

2 hours ago, Duckbutler said:

I personally just don't play certain powersets if I don't get enough personal benefit from them.

And that's the crux of the entire argument - there are sets that lean much more strongly to team play, and those that are better for soloists, and that's a good thing;  Allow players to determine what sets they will play based upon their own preferred playstyle, instead of trying to shoehorn sets into a solo-friendly functionality.

[SeraphimKensai]

2 hours ago, Duckbutler said:

I personally just don't play certain powersets if I don't get enough personal benefit from them. 

 Any powerset with ally only abilities also can be used on says a controller or mastermind so you can make use of those abilities (with the exception of say resurrect like powers or powers that affect recharge), that makes playing some of those characters easier.

[Maxzero]

10 hours ago, biostem said:

Nice moving the goalposts there.  Fort & CM, if castable on yourself, are better than many armor sets, and that's not counting the 2 RAs you already have available.

 

What moving of the goal posts the whole point was to make Empathy better at soloing? Some claim it would be OP so the obvious question is after the changes would Empathy be better then the current best Support sets for soloing.

 

Judging by you avoidance is answering its pretty clear that its not.

[Maxzero]

12 hours ago, Psyonico said:

I'm going to remind you that what others and I are talking about is on SOs only, Empathy my not scale as well as other sets when it comes to IOs, but a self-buffing Empathy defender doesn't even *need* IOs to do the things we're talking about.

 

This isn't live anymore how many players actually use SOs in endgame? If you are running SOs what do you care about OP anyway you are already playing vastly sub optimally?

[Maxzero]

13 hours ago, arcane said:

Yeah I don’t assume you understand the numbers. Self-buffing Empathy would have far more mitigation than Time of Dark. 

 

Well yeah because it has no debuffs or CCs it has to be good for something.

 

But hey if it turns out OP they can have a weaker version when cast on self. My goal is to make some of the weaker sets better at soloing any improvement is better then what they have now.

[Maxzero]

13 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

 

Yes and Yes.

One player is not a team. One player is not a "group".

Two to eight players are a team.

Leagues can have more than 8 players and have multiple teams.

 

I solo sometimes, but the game is built around team-play dynamics.

The different archetypes are supposed to synergize to create a greater result than a character can when soloing.

 

 

The DEVs drew the line. I didn't.

 

Also teams are generally 4 or more on a team.

I do spend some game play as duos for up to 6 hours a week, but most of my teamplay is on teams that have 4 or more players.

 

 

 

Well actually the line is blurred when you take into account pets and such.

 

It just seems everyone like options unless one of those options includes gameplay they don't approve of then suddenly that option is not okay.

 

Some of the team focused sets getting better soloability does not diminish their group viability at all.

 

Or we could put warning labels at character creation saying: "this set is focused for team play only and is not designed to play alone" so that everyone is on the same page.

[Rudra]

31 minutes ago, Maxzero said:

Or we could put warning labels at character creation saying: "this set is focused for team play only and is not designed to play alone" so that everyone is on the same page.

That information is already available in the game during character creation. Click the Detailed Information icon at the power set/power selection screen, and that information is there.

[UltraAlt]

18 hours ago, Maxzero said:

Well actually the line is blurred when you take into account pets and such.

 

No. It isn't.

You are arguing semantics to try to prove your point.

 

If you take pets into account then your argument is moot. You can use "ally only powers" on pets.

 

18 hours ago, Maxzero said:

It just seems everyone like options unless one of those options includes gameplay they don't approve of then suddenly that option is not okay.

 

Okay. The point of the discussion is to get approval of what you want from other players and possibly the DEVs, but, apparently, you think that other people don't have a right to express their disapproval.

 

You want to discuss something you have to accept that there are those that aren't going to disagree with you.

 

18 hours ago, Maxzero said:

Some of the team focused sets getting better soloability does not diminish their group viability at all.

 

Empathy was one of the first sets released for the game.

I'm going to say it again that I'm on the side of leaving it alone other than "Absorb Pain". There is no other self sacrificing Primary or Secondary power that promotes a for player character becoming a martyr for the team.

 

The shields and buffs are a huge power-leverage for a team. The team in turn should be looking out for that character.

 

If you want to solo, fine. Deal with the restrictions  you have as a solo player.

I don't recall ever running into a thread like this on Homecoming before. I'm pretty sure their were little to none of them before the Sundown.

 

Playing as a solo player is on you, and doesn't require changing the game for everyone else.

There are plenty of archetypes, power sets, and power pools that don't affect allies only.

 

"It's not fair that I don't get credit for the kills by enemies that I confuse."

"You could try another power set."

"No. I want to get credit for the kills made by enemies that I confuse. You are being prejudice against me because I want to get XP."

 

That is pretty much what I see your point to come down to.

 

19 hours ago, Maxzero said:

Or we could put warning labels at character creation saying: "this set is focused for team play only and is not designed to play alone" so that everyone is on the same page.

 

Or we could leave it alone as it isn't something that has caused an issue since the game was created.

 

[UltraAlt]

19 hours ago, Maxzero said:

Well yeah because it has no debuffs or CCs it has to be good for something.

 

Meanwhile, others rant on about the "Holy Trinity" of gaming.

[Maxzero]

8 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

 

No. It isn't.

You are arguing semantics to try to prove your point.

 

If you take pets into account then your argument is moot. You can use "ally only powers" on pets.

 

 

Okay. The point of the discussion is to get approval of what you want from other players and possibly the DEVs, but, apparently, you think that other people don't have a right to express their disapproval.

 

You want to discuss something you have to accept that there are those that aren't going to disagree with you.

 

 

Empathy was one of the first sets released for the game.

I'm going to say it again that I'm on the side of leaving it alone other than "Absorb Pain". There is no other self sacrificing Primary or Secondary power that promotes a for player character becoming a martyr for the team.

 

The shields and buffs are a huge power-leverage for a team. The team in turn should be looking out for that character.

 

If you want to solo, fine. Deal with the restrictions  you have as a solo player.

I don't recall ever running into a thread like this on Homecoming before. I'm pretty sure their were little to none of them before the Sundown.

 

Playing as a solo player is on you, and doesn't require changing the game for everyone else.

There are plenty of archetypes, power sets, and power pools that don't affect allies only.

 

"It's not fair that I don't get credit for the kills by enemies that I confuse."

"You could try another power set."

"No. I want to get credit for the kills made by enemies that I confuse. You are being prejudice against me because I want to get XP."

 

That is pretty much what I see your point to come down to.

 

 

Or we could leave it alone as it isn't something that has caused an issue since the game was created.

 

 

My point was some people were talking about how it was great to have power sets that were team focused and not very good soloers because it gave options. My reply was my suggestion takes away no options. Why does Empathy have to be bad at soloing? How does that improve the gameplay experience especially for the Empathy player?

 

I group and solo. Why is it some supports sets can be fantastic at both yet Empathy has to suck at one? That isn't freedom thats a restriction.

 

Where did I say people couldn't disagree? I just want a mechnical and gameplay reason why Empathy has to suck for soloing not: "but its always been that way!."

 

Your analogy also sucks you do get XP from enemies you Confuse as long as you deal at least one damage. The XP calculation is actually quite generous you only need to do 25% of the damage to get 100% XP. Confuse is liked because it greatly accelerates kill speed giving you more XP overall since you go through missions faster.

Edited February 15 by Maxzero

[Maxzero]

8 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

 

Meanwhile, others rant on about the "Holy Trinity" of gaming.

 

CoH actually was very holy trinity on release. Tankers did hardly any damage but were tough, Scrappers were melee DPS, Blasters were ranged DPS, Controllers and Defender did crap damage but of course were the only ATs with access to support power sets (including Heals). Scrappers were the only AT that could solo decently.

 

Its only when Jack Emmert left that we actually started getting more flexibility in ATs.

 

Empathy, Kinetics and Forcefields were the products of that time.

[Rudra]

8 hours ago, Maxzero said:

Scrappers were the only AT that could solo decently.

Please tell me you are joking. The only AT at launch where I heard any complaints about soloing were Controllers. And that was mostly due to how long it took them to clear maps.

[Jiro Ito]

On 2/11/2024 at 6:24 PM, MonteCarla said:

Buffing people is fun.

Your targets are unpredictable, and run everywhere and hide round corners. It's like PVP-lite chasing them down compared to just zapping enemies.

I get off on turning up to a team and knowing I'll completely change the experience for everyone - making them all invulnerable, or superfast and powerful, or whatever. 

I love it when I get a support heavy team together and we make a "mutant circuit" and become way more powerful than the sum of our parts.

 

"Ally only" is a viable limitation just as much as "melee range" is.

 

 

 

"PVP-lite" ha ha what a funny and accurate description, I love that.

 

Anyway, no thank you to nerfing all of the ally buffs in the game just so we can use them on ourselves, that sounds terrible.  All-corrupter and all-defender teams are the most powerful setups in the game.  

[megaericzero]

On 2/13/2024 at 10:55 PM, Maxzero said:

It just seems everyone like options unless one of those options includes gameplay they don't approve of then suddenly that option is not okay.

 

Some of the team focused sets getting better soloability does not diminish their group viability at all.

 

Or we could put warning labels at character creation saying: "this set is focused for team play only and is not designed to play alone" so that everyone is on the same page.

 

 

Or when the option opens up the possibility for players to neglectfully use the powers when the existing standard prevents that. Sometimes you have to protect players from themselves.

 

If you want support sets to have a disclaimer that they may not be ideal for soloing or new players, I'm one-hundred percent game. Heck - put it in big, red letters. There's an entire category - shared by five archetypes - that specialize in buffing yourself.

 

Now if only there was an armor set for people who wanted healing/regeneration-based survivability and mez protection for themself, maybe even with a little extra recovery...

[Maxzero]

12 hours ago, Rudra said:

Please tell me you are joking. The only AT at launch where I heard any complaints about soloing were Controllers. And that was mostly due to how long it took them to clear maps.

 

Yet to answer my question:

 

Why does Empathy have to be bad at soloing? How does that improve the gameplay experience especially for the Empathy player?

 

[Maxzero]

6 hours ago, megaericzero said:

 

 

Or when the option opens up the possibility for players to neglectfully use the powers when the existing standard prevents that. Sometimes you have to protect players from themselves.

 

If you want support sets to have a disclaimer that they may not be ideal for soloing or new players, I'm one-hundred percent game. Heck - put it in big, red letters. There's an entire category - shared by five archetypes - that specialize in buffing yourself.

 

Now if only there was an armor set for people who wanted healing/regeneration-based survivability and mez protection for themself, maybe even with a little extra recovery...

 

How does it protect Empathy players to be not able to buff themselves?

 

The thing is some support sets don't need the disclaimer. Its just some supports have just been labeled "have never soloed and never will be able to!"

 

How does it improve the gameplay experience for Empathy players to be very poor at soloing?

[megaericzero]

29 minutes ago, Maxzero said:

How does it protect Empathy players to be not able to buff themselves?

 

Protecting people from themselves is in reference to them being able to build bad habits - to lose sight of what a support set does and try to use it as an armor set. Even if allowing them to do it solo, it opens up the possibility to do it on teams - mistake or not. The best way to prevent something from happening is to make it physically impossible.

 

>reduce the effectiveness when cast on self

To discourage the behavior, it would have to cut the values so much it wouldn't even be worth casting on yourself anymore anyway. Then we start the slippery slope of "but Time/Dark/etc. doesn't lose effectiveness!" which puts us right back here.

 

>only let people use it solo or on small teams then

Then people complain that they're being punished for teaming because it locks them out of self-buffing.

 

Edited February 16 by megaericzero
minor edit for clarity

[Maxzero]

36 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

 

Protecting people from themselves is in reference to them being able to build bad habits - to lose sight of what a support set does and try to use it as an armor set. Even if allowing them to do it solo, it opens up the possibility to do it on teams - mistake or not. The best way to prevent something from happening is to make it physically impossible.

 

>reduce the effectiveness when cast on self

To discourage the behavior, it would have to cut the values so much it wouldn't even be worth casting on yourself anymore anyway. Then we start the slippery slope of "but Time/Dark/etc. doesn't lose effectiveness!" which puts us right back here.

 

>only let people use it solo or on small teams then

Then people complain that they're being punished for teaming because it locks them out of self-buffing.

 

 

You act like buffing themselves is a mistake, that it is the wrong way to play. Who decides that? You may say the developers. So does that mean if it is changed to become self targetable you would agree that its now the right way to play?

 

>Then people complain that they're being punished for teaming because it locks them out of self-buffing.

 

As opposed to being locked out because you 'picked wrong' on the character select screen? I glad you agree with the warning because if you are going to create two tiers of supports sets then players should be fully informed before they make their selection.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Maxzero said:

14 hours ago, Rudra said:

Please tell me you are joking. The only AT at launch where I heard any complaints about soloing were Controllers. And that was mostly due to how long it took them to clear maps.

 

Yet to answer my question:

 

Why does Empathy have to be bad at soloing? How does that improve the gameplay experience especially for the Empathy player?

Why are you asking me that? I'm not arguing against you. The sole purpose of my comment was to respond to your comment that only Scrappers could solo decently when CoH first launched. And I'm saying that is nonsense. Every AT was good at soloing. (Except for Controllers because of how long it took them to do anything, but by god they were safe while slowly making their way through the missions.)

 

33 minutes ago, Maxzero said:

As opposed to being locked out because you 'picked wrong' on the character select screen? I glad you agree with the warning because if you are going to create two tiers of supports sets then players should be fully informed before they make their selection.

You want warnings for sets and their powers? Like I said, that information is already available on the character select screen if you click the green exclamation point that says Info. If it says "Friendlies"? Then it is ally only. If it says "Self"? It affects you too. And obviously, if it says "Enemies", it needs enemies to work.

 

Edit: Players can also use Mids, go to City of Data, or go to the wiki to get this information.

 

 

 

Edited February 16 by Rudra
Edited for clarity.