Maxzero Posted February 11 Posted February 11 Is there any reason why we still have these? Why do some sets loses 50%+ of their effectiveness if they have no one to cast their buffs on yet other powersets do not? Its not like Empathy is going to be OP if players can cast Fortitude on themselves. You now have implemented QoL changes where certain ST shields and buffs affect the whole party except the person using the power. You end up in situations where everyone wants to group with a /Kin but no one actually wants to play one because the /Kin player gets all the grunt work while everyone else gets the fun. So is this something that can be looked at? 1 7
megaericzero Posted February 11 Posted February 11 Turning those buffs to AOE was purely a convenience and time-saving thing. They still don't affect the caster. If you feel that support is a thankless job then support probably isn't for you. Allowing ally-only buffs to be used on yourself would only open up people to losing sight of what support does. Imagine an empath saying they always need Fort and AB for themself so they can survive and heal better. 4 2
Psyonico Posted February 11 Posted February 11 Empathy would turn into a perma-Instant Healing ranged scrapper with ~25% defense to all with just itself and hasten... You don't see a problem with this? Force Field could soft-cap itself to all defense by level 15. With mez protection as well Team buffs were designed to be stronger because they don't affect you, if they could affect you, they would be nerfed. A lot. 5 2 What this team needs is more Defenders
arcane Posted February 11 Posted February 11 Power Boosted self-buffing Empathy would have Tanker level mitigation with zero toggles and still be a ranged team-buffing character. Yeah no. 2 1
MonteCarla Posted February 12 Posted February 12 Buffing people is fun. Your targets are unpredictable, and run everywhere and hide round corners. It's like PVP-lite chasing them down compared to just zapping enemies. I get off on turning up to a team and knowing I'll completely change the experience for everyone - making them all invulnerable, or superfast and powerful, or whatever. I love it when I get a support heavy team together and we make a "mutant circuit" and become way more powerful than the sum of our parts. "Ally only" is a viable limitation just as much as "melee range" is. 2 1 The Badass Empath Guide Modern Force Fields Guide The Rich Alt's Guide to Perma-Dom Resistances for Brutes
Clave Dark 5 Posted February 12 Posted February 12 The game is trending less towards teaming and more soloists, it's true: people solo TFs, they have their own SGs, etc. Unless the devs tell us they're 100% with going that rout, chances are these will still stay teamwork related powers because that's what they were supposed to be by design. Choosing to only solo therefore will restrict your choices of what sets you can play, yeah. 3 Tim "Black Scorpion" Sweeney: Matt (Posi) used to say that players would find the shortest path to the rewards even if it was a completely terrible play experience that would push them away from the game... ╔═══════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════╗ Clave's Sure-Fire Secrets to Enjoying City Of Heroes Ignore those farming chores, skip your market homework, play any power sets that you want, and ignore anyone who says otherwise. This game isn't hard work, it's easy! Go have fun! ╚═══════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════╝
Maxzero Posted February 12 Author Posted February 12 18 hours ago, Psyonico said: Empathy would turn into a perma-Instant Healing ranged scrapper with ~25% defense to all with just itself and hasten... You don't see a problem with this? Force Field could soft-cap itself to all defense by level 15. With mez protection as well Team buffs were designed to be stronger because they don't affect you, if they could affect you, they would be nerfed. A lot. Not really. Is an Empathy Defender suddenly become some sort of solo powerhouse? I can already make a perma near Regen cap character with my Plant/Dark Controller. The buffs are team wide and I also get a huge selection of debuffs and pets to go with it. Empathy will self targeting buffs is still not that good. 2
Maxzero Posted February 12 Author Posted February 12 17 hours ago, arcane said: Power Boosted self-buffing Empathy would have Tanker level mitigation with zero toggles and still be a ranged team-buffing character. Yeah no. Lol no it wouldn't thats complete nonsense. My Controller would still be better off with Time or Dark. 1 1
Maxzero Posted February 12 Author Posted February 12 4 hours ago, Clave Dark 5 said: The game is trending less towards teaming and more soloists, it's true: people solo TFs, they have their own SGs, etc. Unless the devs tell us they're 100% with going that rout, chances are these will still stay teamwork related powers because that's what they were supposed to be by design. Choosing to only solo therefore will restrict your choices of what sets you can play, yeah. Yeah it does. My question why does it have to be that way? These changes won't make Empath as good as Time or Dark solowise so why make Empath even more locked into team only play? 1
biostem Posted February 12 Posted February 12 On 2/11/2024 at 3:29 AM, Maxzero said: Is there any reason why we still have these? Do you believe in game balance or that it is an important factor in games? If not, then I could see why you'd want to be able to use all those ally-only powers on yourself. 1
Maxzero Posted February 13 Author Posted February 13 (edited) 11 hours ago, biostem said: Do you believe in game balance or that it is an important factor in games? If not, then I could see why you'd want to be able to use all those ally-only powers on yourself. So you are telling me if Empathy had self castable Fortitude and Clear mind it would be better then Dark Affinity or Time Manipulation for soloing? Even after the change Empathy would still be weaker because Empathy has been power creeped to hell and back. Its noticable that all the later buff power sets (Dark, Time, Nature) all heavily toned back or near removed entirely the Ally only mechanic (Ally Rez be definition would be Ally only) . Even the developers on Live realised how poor a mechanic it is I don't know why players cling to it so. The powers are not even toned down despite being team wide: Wild Growth, Overgrowth, Farsight, Chrono Shift, Fade and Soul Absorption are some of the best abilities in the game so the argument that if self targeted they would be weaker is just plain wrong. Dark, Time and Nature showed that being a support can be more then just being a buff bot and can solo perfectly fine. Edited February 13 by Maxzero
Rudra Posted February 13 Posted February 13 34 minutes ago, Maxzero said: So you are telling me if Empathy had self castable Fortitude and Clear mind it would be better then Dark Affinity or Time Manipulation for soloing? Even after the change Empathy would still be weaker because Empathy has been power creeped to hell and back. Its noticable that all the later buff power sets (Dark, Time, Nature) all heavily toned back or near removed entirely the Ally only mechanic (Ally Rez be definition would be Ally only) . Even the developers on Live realised how poor a mechanic it is I don't know why players cling to it so. The powers are not even toned down despite being team wide: Wild Growth, Overgrowth, Farsight, Chrono Shift, Fade and Soul Absorption are some of the best abilities in the game so the argument that if self targeted they would be weaker is just plain wrong. Dark, Time and Nature showed that being a support can be more then just being a buff bot and can solo perfectly fine. I was planning on staying out of this conversation, but are you seriously comparing Dark Affinity's Soul Absorption (45 second duration) which can only work if there are enemies in range to drain from to anything from Empathy which requires no enemies anywhere on the map to be used? Or Nature Affinity's Wild Growth with its +100% regen to Empathy's +500% regen? Are you saying Empathy's Adrenaline Boost (90 second duration) with its +100% recharge, +800% recovery, +500% regeneration, and +80% resist all slow effects is not as good as Nature Affinity's Overgrowth (60 second duration) with its +93.125% endurance discount, +66% damage, and +10% ToHit or Time Manipulation's Chrono Shift with its +212 HP heal, +15% endurance (90 second duration?), +50% recharge (90 second duration) and +30% recovery (30 second duration)? Because while they bring different things to the table, Empathy's Adrenaline Boost doesn't look inferior to me. (And you would need to compare the T9s to each other if you're going to compare the sets for specific powers.) Look, I don't care if Empathy gets buffed or not. I have no stake in this. Your comparison however has me rather confused. 1
Maxzero Posted February 13 Author Posted February 13 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Rudra said: I was planning on staying out of this conversation, but are you seriously comparing Dark Affinity's Soul Absorption (45 second duration) which can only work if there are enemies in range to drain from to anything from Empathy which requires no enemies anywhere on the map to be used? Or Nature Affinity's Wild Growth with its +100% regen to Empathy's +500% regen? Are you saying Empathy's Adrenaline Boost (90 second duration) with its +100% recharge, +800% recovery, +500% regeneration, and +80% resist all slow effects is not as good as Nature Affinity's Overgrowth (60 second duration) with its +93.125% endurance discount, +66% damage, and +10% ToHit or Time Manipulation's Chrono Shift with its +212 HP heal, +15% endurance (90 second duration?), +50% recharge (90 second duration) and +30% recovery (30 second duration)? Because while they bring different things to the table, Empathy's Adrenaline Boost doesn't look inferior to me. (And you would need to compare the T9s to each other if you're going to compare the sets for specific powers.) Look, I don't care if Empathy gets buffed or not. I have no stake in this. Your comparison however has me rather confused. Thats the point. They are comparable despite being team wide powers. Adrenaline Boost is 1 target only (not even perma without very heavy +recharge) and that target can never be you. Buffing isn't even Time/Nature/Dark's only trick either. They all have access to excellent debuffs in addition to their buff kit. Would be a really interesting to see, on the test realm, Empathy (and others such as FF) get self targeting buffs. No doubt all these people would take Empathy since it would be OP and solo AE 801 because it gives 'tanker level mitigation' right? Edited February 13 by Maxzero
Rudra Posted February 13 Posted February 13 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Maxzero said: Thats the point. They are comparable despite being team wide powers. Adrenaline Boost is 1 target only (not even perma without very heavy +recharge) and that target can never be you. Buffing isn't even Time/Nature/Dark's only trick either. They all have access to excellent debuffs in addition to their buff kit. Would be a really interesting to see, on the test realm, Empathy (and others such as FF) get self targeting buffs. No doubt all these people would take Empathy since it would be OP and solo AE 801 because it gives 'tanker level mitigation' right? Was editing my post, but you replied while I was still looking things up. So! Fortitude (120s duration/60s recharge) Fade (60s duration/240s recharge) Shadow Fall (maintained toggle effect) +11.25% DEF (All) +9.375% DEF (All) +3.75% DEF (All) +25% damage +9.375% damage resist (Smash, lethal, negative, and psionic) +15% damage resist (Smash, lethal, negative, and psionic) +15% ToHit +34.6% resist defense debuff +35.5 feet Stealth radius Considering how easy it is to cut a power's recharge in half? That would make Fortitude permanent without having to consider Hasten or other such measures. And Fortitude starts out already perma. Yeah, I'd say that is rather strong for an affects self too power. Anyway, this is what I wanted to add to my previous post. The rest of you can go back to discussing this among yourselves. Edit: And for fairness: Farsight (120s duration/240s recharge) +9.375% DEF (All except toxic) +10% ToHit +51.9% resist Perception debuff +346 ft. Perception Edited February 13 by Rudra Edited to add missing space between "60" and "s", and to correct "me" to "my". And edited again to remove spaces between time numerals and "s".
Maxzero Posted February 13 Author Posted February 13 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Rudra said: Was editing my post, but you replied while I was still looking things up. So! Fortitude (120s duration/60s recharge) Fade (60s duration/240s recharge) Shadow Fall (maintained toggle effect) +11.25% DEF (All) +9.375% DEF (All) +3.75% DEF (All) +25% damage +9.375% damage resist (Smash, lethal, negative, and psionic) +15% damage resist (Smash, lethal, negative, and psionic) +15% ToHit +34.6% resist defense debuff +35.5 feet Stealth radius Considering how easy it is to cut a power's recharge in half? That would make Fortitude permanent without having to consider Hasten or other such measures. Yeah, I'd say that is rather strong for an affects self too power. Anyway, this is what I wanted to add to my previous post. The rest of you can go back to discussing this among yourselves. I'm okay with strong buffs for Empath. It has no debuffs, no real proc opportunities, no utility (pets, CC, etc). It has to have something going for it for soloing. The idea that some sets are just 'designed to fail' for soloing just seems like bad design to me. Edited February 13 by Maxzero 1
Rudra Posted February 13 Posted February 13 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Maxzero said: I'm okay with strong buffs for Empath. It has no debuffs, no real proc opportunities, no utility (pets, CC, etc). It has to have something going for it for soloing. The idea that some sets are just 'designed to fail' for soloing just seems like bad design to me. As a soloist player, I get that. Which is why I avoid sets like Thermal Radiation. However, this is a multiplayer focused game even if we have progressed to the point where we can solo pretty much everything because of all the power creep and the incarnate powers system. So I at least understand why there are team focused sets. I've long since given up on them becoming soloist sets, because this is meant as a multiplayer experience. Edit: Also, Empathy doesn't need any CC or pets or debuffs. It has layered heals, Mag 10.38 mez protection (all), buffed perception, extremely buffed regeneration and recovery, stronger defenses than any other support set, +endurance, and high +recharge (plus -recharge resist and slow resist). There is a reason why the saying is to have a pocket empath to support you and not just a pocket support. Edited February 13 by Rudra 2
Maxzero Posted February 13 Author Posted February 13 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Rudra said: As a soloist player, I get that. Which is why I avoid sets like Thermal Radiation. However, this is a multiplayer focused game even if we have progressed to the point where we can solo pretty much everything because of all the power creep and the incarnate powers system. So I at least understand why there are team focused sets. I've long since given up on them becoming soloist sets, because this is meant as a multiplayer experience. Mate, I know what I am asking for is a long shot. These 'team only' powersets are a relic from a game that no longer exists. Of course the nostalgia fanboys are not going to like me targeting one of the few sacred cows left. But I still think its bad design and will call it as such. So far no one has shown me how having team only powersets is good for the game because deep down they know that it isn't. Edited February 13 by Maxzero 2
MonteCarla Posted February 13 Posted February 13 One of CoH's real strengths is that you're rewarded for teaming. You get more XP for being on teams, but teams also naturally reinforce each other and perform better than the sum of their parts. This is important because forming teams is a little bit hard and requires social energy. If the game doesn't reward it and everyone's solo-capable, no one bothers. If you ever played Champions Online - this wasn't the case. The support powersets are OK, but not team-changing in the way that CoH's are. And nobody teams up to run missions beyond the Alerts there. Ally-only buffs play a big part in keeping CoH team friendly. This totally exists still - I play it most days and I'm not the only one. If it's not your cup of tea, that's cool. You make a whole bunch of decisions when you make a character. One of them is the Team/Solo axis. Team (Defender, Controller etc) or Solo (Scrapper, Stalker, Sentinel etc) Say I choose Defender. Team (Empathy, Sonic, Thermal) or Solo (Dark, Rad, Time, Storm) Say I choose Empathy. Team (Leadership, Res and Clear Mind) or Solo (Fighting) and so on. What's wrong with having these options available? 2 2 The Badass Empath Guide Modern Force Fields Guide The Rich Alt's Guide to Perma-Dom Resistances for Brutes
Clave Dark 5 Posted February 13 Posted February 13 2 hours ago, Maxzero said: Mate, I know what I am asking for is a long shot. These 'team only' powersets are a relic from a game that no longer exists. Of course the nostalgia fanboys are not going to like me targeting one of the few sacred cows left. But I still think its bad design and will call it as such. So far no one has shown me how having team only powersets is good for the game because deep down they know that it isn't. "But he gets results you stupid chief!" But to repeat: team-only powers because this was and very much still is a game for teaming. Just because you don't want to team doesn't make that untrue, and we certainly don't agree with you deep down or otherwise. 2 Tim "Black Scorpion" Sweeney: Matt (Posi) used to say that players would find the shortest path to the rewards even if it was a completely terrible play experience that would push them away from the game... ╔═══════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════╗ Clave's Sure-Fire Secrets to Enjoying City Of Heroes Ignore those farming chores, skip your market homework, play any power sets that you want, and ignore anyone who says otherwise. This game isn't hard work, it's easy! Go have fun! ╚═══════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════╝
UltraAlt Posted February 13 Posted February 13 On 2/11/2024 at 3:29 AM, Maxzero said: So is this something that can be looked at? It shouldn't be. This is an MMORPG and not a 1-player game. The game is designed for teaming. The DEVs over the years have done somethings to make the game more solo-player friendly, but that doesn't need to be taken to extremes. You have plenty of options and don't need to play a set that has powers that only affects others. 2 If someone posts a reply quoting me and I don't reply, they may be on ignore. (It seems I'm involved with so much at this point that I may not be able to easily retrieve access to all the notifications) Some players know that I have them on ignore and are likely to make posts knowing that is the case. But the fact that I have them on ignore won't stop some of them from bullying and harassing people, because some of them love to do it. There is a group that have banded together to target forum posters they don't like. They think that this behavior is acceptable. Ignore (in the forums) and /ignore (in-game) are tools to improve your gaming experience. Don't feel bad about using them.
Greycat Posted February 13 Posted February 13 On 2/11/2024 at 11:10 AM, Psyonico said: Empathy would turn into a perma-Instant Healing ranged scrapper with ~25% defense to all with just itself and hasten... You don't see a problem with this? "Abused" (heh) heavily back on live with the Repeat Offenders Green Machine teams. All Empathy defenders buffing each other, you had a specific target for your ST buffs so everyone had them. I believe the term they had was "regen blasters." It was exceptionally effective, even on SOs. So, this comment isn't theoretical. Yes, if the buffs were allowed to affect yourself, they'd *have* to be nerfed. Having tradeoffs (Dark's heal and rezzes, as powerful as they can be, needing enemies, for instance) are not a bad thing. "Team only" is one of those. 1 Kheldian Lore and Backstory Guide 2.0: HC edition Out to EAT : A look at Epic ATs - what is, could have been, and never was Want 20 merits? Got a couple of minutes? Mini guide to the Combat Attributes window
Maxzero Posted February 13 Author Posted February 13 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Clave Dark 5 said: "But he gets results you stupid chief!" But to repeat: team-only powers because this was and very much still is a game for teaming. Just because you don't want to team doesn't make that untrue, and we certainly don't agree with you deep down or otherwise. 31 minutes ago, UltraAlt said: It shouldn't be. This is an MMORPG and not a 1-player game. The game is designed for teaming. The DEVs over the years have done somethings to make the game more solo-player friendly, but that doesn't need to be taken to extremes. You have plenty of options and don't need to play a set that has powers that only affects others. My change wouldn't affect teaming. Its for solo ability. If you guys are so cut up about you can do a weaker version if cast on self. Edited February 13 by Maxzero 1 2
Maxzero Posted February 13 Author Posted February 13 (edited) 56 minutes ago, MonteCarla said: One of CoH's real strengths is that you're rewarded for teaming. You get more XP for being on teams, but teams also naturally reinforce each other and perform better than the sum of their parts. This is important because forming teams is a little bit hard and requires social energy. If the game doesn't reward it and everyone's solo-capable, no one bothers. If you ever played Champions Online - this wasn't the case. The support powersets are OK, but not team-changing in the way that CoH's are. And nobody teams up to run missions beyond the Alerts there. Ally-only buffs play a big part in keeping CoH team friendly. This totally exists still - I play it most days and I'm not the only one. If it's not your cup of tea, that's cool. You make a whole bunch of decisions when you make a character. One of them is the Team/Solo axis. Team (Defender, Controller etc) or Solo (Scrapper, Stalker, Sentinel etc) Say I choose Defender. Team (Empathy, Sonic, Thermal) or Solo (Dark, Rad, Time, Storm) Say I choose Empathy. Team (Leadership, Res and Clear Mind) or Solo (Fighting) and so on. What's wrong with having these options available? My change won't remove any of your options but will add others. Whats the issue? Edited February 13 by Maxzero 2
Maxzero Posted February 13 Author Posted February 13 (edited) 46 minutes ago, UltraAlt said: It shouldn't be. This is an MMORPG and not a 1-player game. The game is designed for teaming. The DEVs over the years have done somethings to make the game more solo-player friendly, but that doesn't need to be taken to extremes. You have plenty of options and don't need to play a set that has powers that only affects others. 46 minutes ago, UltraAlt said: It shouldn't be. This is an MMORPG and not a 1-player game. The game is designed for teaming. The DEVs over the years have done somethings to make the game more solo-player friendly, but that doesn't need to be taken to extremes. You have plenty of options and don't need to play a set that has powers that only affects others. So the issue is the solo part? A group of 1 are a problem but group of 2 casting the buffs on each other are perfectly fine? Seems a rather arbitrary line to draw. Edited February 13 by Maxzero
UltraAlt Posted February 13 Posted February 13 (edited) 4 hours ago, Maxzero said: So the issue is the solo part? A group of 1 are a problem but group of 2 casting the buffs on each other are perfectly fine? Yes and Yes. One player is not a team. One player is not a "group". Two to eight players are a team. Leagues can have more than 8 players and have multiple teams. I solo sometimes, but the game is built around team-play dynamics. The different archetypes are supposed to synergize to create a greater result than a character can when soloing. 4 hours ago, Maxzero said: Seems a rather arbitrary line to draw. The DEVs drew the line. I didn't. Also teams are generally 4 or more on a team. I do spend some game play as duos for up to 6 hours a week, but most of my teamplay is on teams that have 4 or more players. Edited February 13 by UltraAlt If someone posts a reply quoting me and I don't reply, they may be on ignore. (It seems I'm involved with so much at this point that I may not be able to easily retrieve access to all the notifications) Some players know that I have them on ignore and are likely to make posts knowing that is the case. But the fact that I have them on ignore won't stop some of them from bullying and harassing people, because some of them love to do it. There is a group that have banded together to target forum posters they don't like. They think that this behavior is acceptable. Ignore (in the forums) and /ignore (in-game) are tools to improve your gaming experience. Don't feel bad about using them.
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