The Philotic Knight's Buff Force Fields 1.0!

[Blackfeather]

16 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

My question then is, why not both?

 

Add an absorb layer that would do much more than increasing the +def would to the shields in the current meta.

 

Make FB and RB do "real" damage on top of their control aspects so that you contribute significantly while the team is safely bubbled.

 

That covers 5 / 9 powers right there,  with PFF being pretty good already that leaves only 3 to look at potentially:

 

Detention Field needs... something. Phase powers are often sorta questionable. 

 

Force Bubble, if changed the way Philotic wants, would be in a weird design space where it does sorta the same thing as repulsion field?

I'm neutral-to-somewhat-opposed it at the moment, because I think the shield powers are fine as they are; in other words, Absorb is a wishlist thing for people who might want it. As such, I'm kind of ambivalent - it's improving on something that doesn't need to be in my mind.

 

I've already given suggestions on what I'd like for Detention Field - being able to cancel it early would be all that's necessary for it, personally. Though additionally having a higher magnitude, to the extent of trapping AVs would be even better. Though correction there; it's not a intangible status effect that it inflicts, it's untouchable and only affects self.

 

Along with that, I've posted my suggestion on Force Bubble already; Philotic's suggestion for the power is one piece of how it might be better. I proposed this a few pages back in this thread:

On 1/1/2020 at 2:44 AM, Blackfeather said:

In summary:

• Switchable modes to change the way that Force Bubble works dynamically
• Regular Force Bubble = same radius, same magnitude
• Focused Force Bubble = smaller radius, higher magnitude, slow to prevent faster enemies pushing through?
• Diffuse Force Bubble = larger radius (out of range of most ranged attacks), lower magnitude (bosses and up can pass through)

Main difference in my mind with Force Bubble and Repulsion Field is that the former is more focused on positional denial, while the latter moreso on soft control via knockback/knockdown. This suggestion merely aims to provide Force Bubble with further finesse at the job, building on Philotic's suggestion of making the radius of Force Bubble smaller.

[_NOPE_]

Not the same thing. Repulsion Field has a TINY radius of activation - basically, an enemy has to be on top of you and gets one free swipe before they are knocked back. Force Bubble in the other hand has a HUGE radius of activation around the FFer, that enemies can "push" through. Honestly, I haven't spent the time looking into the mechanics of how the Repel effect actually works. Maybe I should, since I now have access to the code. But from just the behavior I've noticed, it looks like some mobs have a repel resistance, so some can push through better than others. Some with the highest repel resistance can push through all the way to the FFer and get a swipe in. Then, as they are swiping, for some reason they lose their repel resistance as the swipe is happening, and they get pushed back again. It's an interesting effect, and I wish I understood it more. 

 

Either way, the two powers do NOT have the exact same effect. They have similar effects, but not the same, and they use two different mechanics to do it. 

[Galaxy Brain]

That is true, it's been a bit since I've messed with rep field so I thought I remembered it working more like a damage aura in conjunction with how force bubble works.

 

Hmmm... given how it does work (almost like a recoil from swiping at the bubbler) what if it was also turned into a damage ability....? Swipe at the bubbler, you get newton's law applied to you and take damage and get yeeted?

[_NOPE_]

2 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

That is true, it's been a bit since I've messed with rep field so I thought I remembered it working more like a damage aura in conjunction with how force bubble works.

 

Hmmm... given how it does work (almost like a recoil from swiping at the bubbler) what if it was also turned into a damage ability....? Swipe at the bubbler, you get newton's law applied to you and take damage and get yeeted?

That's not a bad idea. I think you're all hinting at the main issue - Force Fields does fine, for what it does, but it doesn't do ENOUGH. So, what should that extra "something" be that other support sets don't do as well. Cold Domination came in and started taking over FF's position as the Defense master, along with providing additional utilities that FF doesn't provide (-SPD, -Recharge, +Ally HP, Swapping Endurance between enemies and allies). So, what can FF bring to the table that Cold doesn't, to differentiate it and make it stand apart from Cold. And I think you're on the right track, as I was hinting with my original suggestions. I think that area can and should be - raw damage. The "oomph" of a force field hitting someone. In my opinion, Force Fields should see a large increase in its damage output to account for other sets, IOs, etc. taking away from what "made it great", namely, Defense. In a world where everyone can get tons of Defense bonuses in the end game, and everyone is already in a low chance of wiping due to their various powers/auras... then if FF provided more damage, then it would help the team even more.

 

So, as I said in my original post:

• Up the damage for Force Bolt to a Tier 1 Blaster attack level of damage
• Up the damage for Repulsion Bomb to a Tier 3 Blaster attack, or a Tier 1 Blaster AoE attack. And, since everyone is always complaining about it (though I've personally never disliked it), double the speed on the animation and reduce the cast time by half.
• A third option could be, just as you suggested, any enemy hit with Repulsion Field ALSO takes damage from the force of the blow. Let's call it another Tier 1 Blaster attack. Hell, why not? The FFer is already losing endurance to knock enemies back, why not give them some free damage as well?

Force Bubble wouldn't make sense to add damage to, since it's just a Repel wall. However, what if Detention Field also did DoT to the enemy? Let's call it damage from lack of oxygen, or damage from the detention field pushing in on the enemy. As has been suggested by others, lets also up the MAG on the hold and the immobilization. Allow FFers to bring something unique to the table by letting them be able to hold AVs. But again, I think it needs to be a toggle so that we can release at our own choice, and to make it not too overpowered, increase the endurance cost for as long as the toggle is activated, so that the FFer can't keep them held indefinitely.

 

What do you think about these adjustments? Then FF would have the following:

• The standard 4 Defense raising powers (Deflection, Insulation, Dispersion, and PFF)
• Three different powers that can do attack level damage (Force Bolt - Single Target, Repulsion Field - PBAoE, Repulsion Bomb - Targeted AoE)
• An "uber hold" - Detention Field, with perhaps some moderate DoT?
• The Gandalf Power - Force Bubble (YOU SHALL NOT PASS!)

I think that would be quite something, and change the mix a bit. What say you?

Edited January 9, 2020 by The Philotic Knight

[Apparition]

It's pretty clear that if Force Field were added to the game today it'd be all about Absorb instead of defense.  Defense is already better covered by Cold Manipulation and Time, and brings little value to the late and end game.  Absorb is relatively rare, and better fits the concept of a force field.  Most people, myself included, absolutely loathe knockback and actively discourage its use.  That leaves Force Field with AoE mez protection as its sole value.  That's an excellent trick, but it's one trick.

 

IMO, changing Detention Field to a hold, increasing the damage to Force Bolt, lowering the animation and activation time and increasing the damage to Repulsion Bomb, and adding absorb ticks to Dispersion Bubble are the way to go.  

[Corruption]

Force Field certainly needs to be reworked, it's one of the most lackluster sets in the game. Cold Domination completely outclasses FF, it's not even close. Currently it provides defense buffs and that's basically it. Knockback is terrible and annoys many people, so I'm not even going to count that.

 

Personally, I think it should get some sort of debuff for me to even consider playing it. Cold has Sleet, Benumb and Heat Loss, along with the Ice Shields, while FF is stuck with PFF, Repulsion Field and Force Bubble. Gross.

Edited January 9, 2020 by Corruption

[Galaxy Brain]

On mobile, bigger reply later ~

 

Just want to point out to @Corruptionthat it is AoE kb that is gross. Force Bolt is controlled knockback on 1 target, Repulsion Bomb is knock-down, and lastly Repulsion Field requires the bubbler to actually bowl into enemies which is kinda lulz but also incredibly punishing on the bubbles end bar to try.

[Blackfeather]

23 minutes ago, Corruption said:

Force Field certainly needs to be reworked, it's one of the most lackluster sets in the game. Cold Domination completely outclasses FF, it's not even close. Currently it provides defense buffs and that's basically it. Knockback is terrible and annoys many people, so I'm not even going to count that.

 

Personally, I think it should get some sort of debuff for me to even consider playing it. Cold has Sleet, Benumb and Heat Loss, along with the Ice Shields, while FF is stuck with PFF, Repulsion Field and Force Bubble. Gross.

Just a heads up, Corruption...this isn't the place for Force Field reworks (check the first post). These buffs are coming from the viewpoint of people who enjoy the set as it is, but think it could do with some improvements. So if you want very dramatic changes, this isn't going to be the thread to discuss them in.

 

With that said:

9 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

That is true, it's been a bit since I've messed with rep field so I thought I remembered it working more like a damage aura in conjunction with how force bubble works.

 

Hmmm... given how it does work (almost like a recoil from swiping at the bubbler) what if it was also turned into a damage ability....? Swipe at the bubbler, you get newton's law applied to you and take damage and get yeeted?

This is interesting. Though I'm beginning to think that Knockback in general might need modification to - that is to say, the mechanic itself could perhaps provide damage in some form or another. Repulsion Field could do with an endurance reduction of course, as Philotic's mentioned.

6 hours ago, The Philotic Knight said:

Force Bubble wouldn't make sense to add damage to, since it's just a Repel wall. However, what if Detention Field also did DoT to the enemy? Let's call it damage from lack of oxygen, or damage from the detention field pushing in on the enemy. As has been suggested by others, lets also up the MAG on the hold and the immobilization. Allow FFers to bring something unique to the table by letting them be able to hold AVs. But again, I think it needs to be a toggle so that we can release at our own choice, and to make it not too overpowered, increase the endurance cost for as long as the toggle is activated, so that the FFer can't keep them held indefinitely.

Hmm...honestly, I'm fine with Detention Field not dealing damage, if it means that it can basically detain things up to an AV. I'd argue that keeping something untouchable for an indefinite amount of time isn't that overpowered, in that damage still needs to be dealt to actually defeat them, if that makes sense. Sleeps do much the same thing, so long as they aren't hit. Detention Field basically just guarantees that.

 

I personally would go the route of "have another power that comes along with Detention Field that lets you disable it early". Though a toggle would work fine, I suppose, and have the added benefit of auto-hitting. So I guess there's two routes to go with this.

[gameboy1234]

1 hour ago, Blackfeather said:

Hmm...honestly, I'm fine with Detention Field not dealing damage, if it means that it can basically detain things up to an AV.

This is interesting, I wonder if some form of AV hold could be balanced.  If a toggle (to shut it off) is added to Detention, then that plus an AV hold level might make it something worth taking.  (I think if I was going to balance this, I'd go for hold resist;  give DF enough mag to land on a AV, but then the full duration of the hold doesn't run, it gets resisted and the hold ends early.  Then some enemies can be effectively immune by giving them enough hold resist, while other will at least see some effect and be held for a while).

 

Personally I don't think adding damage to FF as a fix isn't going to do anything.  Just like Defense, everyone else does damage better than what's being proposed here, and it again won't actually add anything to FF, it'll still be just as lackluster.  I guess that means I'm on the side that says small tweaks aren't going to fix FF, and we need larger more drastic changes.  I don't want a complete revamp, the powers that work should stay as they are.  But the controversial or less picked powers might need bigger changes.

 

I *would* be ok with the devs making small changes if they thought the change was going to be permanent, even if other powers got changes later (Detention Field I'm looking at you).

 

 

[Blackfeather]

33 minutes ago, gameboy1234 said:

This is interesting, I wonder if some form of AV hold could be balanced.  If a toggle (to shut it off) is added to Detention, then that plus an AV hold level might make it something worth taking.  (I think if I was going to balance this, I'd go for hold resist;  give DF enough mag to land on a AV, but then the full duration of the hold doesn't run, it gets resisted and the hold ends early.  Then some enemies can be effectively immune by giving them enough hold resist, while other will at least see some effect and be held for a while).

Well, at the moment, Detention Field isn't a hold - it causes the targeted enemy to be untouchable, and only able to affect themselves. It's a power designed to quarantine an enemy away (hence the detain part of Detention Field), taking it out of the fight for a temporary amount of time. I think the fact that an enemy is unable to be damaged whilst in the field is balance enough - a 'hold' that stops damage, both ways.

 

At the moment, it can detain bosses in a single hit, and the occasional Elite Boss if you're lucky. I'd prefer it if it were more potent - after all, if you're going to be taking something out of the fight, you probably want to do that to the heaviest hitter in the room. And unlike a hold, you're unable to damage it for that duration; in other words, it's pure battlefield control, as compared to "turning an enemy into a training dummy to wail on". In other words, for those D&D inclined, it's Maze (temporary banishment from play) compared to Hold Person (chance to attack without retaliation). Different uses.

 

A toggle could certainly work nicely as such, letting you cancel the effect early. That being said, I'm kind of greedy - having the potential to be able to detain multiple things at once sounds pretty neat, whilst still being able to cancel it through some other means. Hey, a Mass Hypnosis can do the same thing, albeit in a more fragile manner, after all. But I can understand why that might be objectionable.

Edited January 10, 2020 by Blackfeather
Added further reasoning.

[Galaxy Brain]

 (still on mobile)

 

One thing that concerns me with the detention working on AVs is that they still regen while detained. Removing an AV from our effects could theoretically be detrimental as they heal up or use self boosts

[_NOPE_]

Thus the idea of DoT added to it. 

[greenbodice]

As an Ill/FF main, I like the idea of buffing damage for FF. Before the endgame, Force Bolt is a really nice soft control power against bosses. In the end game its not good. But making it equivalent of a T1 defender/blaster damage scale would be nice. 

 

The one major change I’d make is to have PFF work like Elude, but on a much longer cooldown and maybe with a lower defense magnitude. 

 

Oh, it might be fun if Force Bubble could also slot Taunt...

Edited January 10, 2020 by greenbodice

[Blackfeather]

16 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 (still on mobile)

 

One thing that concerns me with the detention working on AVs is that they still regen while detained. Removing an AV from our effects could theoretically be detrimental as they heal up or use self boosts

Exactly - it's a power to be used at the start of the fight, giving a chance to clear out other mobs, or other AVs that happen to be around at the same time for example. Detention Field (at least how I use it), is a way of cutting down any heavy hitters on a battlefield, letting you focus on lesser threats, before dealing with said larger threat solo.

[Galaxy Brain]

Ok, solo I suppose but in a team the adds are gonna be blown away anyways...

[gameboy1234]

41 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

At the moment, it can detain bosses in a single hit, and the occasional Elite Boss if you're lucky. I'd prefer it if it were more potent - after all, if you're going to be taking something out of the fight, you probably want to do that to the heaviest hitter in the room.

So switching it to a hold would allow Elite Boss and AVs to be held if the Mag is high enough, right?

42 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

And unlike a hold, you're unable to damage it for that duration;

And turning it into a Hold would require some tweaks, because it's not a straight hold.  OK.

15 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

detention working on AVs is that they still regen while detained.

 

7 minutes ago, The Philotic Knight said:

Thus the idea of DoT added to it.

Any DoT able to overcome AV regeneration is probably going to kill anything else it's applied to.  -1000% regen would probably be a better choice.

6 minutes ago, greenbodice said:

The one major change I’d make is to have PFF work like Elude, but on a much longer cooldown and maybe with a lower defense magnitude. 

I personally think it should just be personal defense, with no fancy stuff.  Stack it with Dispersion Field and you're good.  But they've made some changes to it, and it now lets you attack, it just drops its defense for a while when you do attack.  That's interesting (not sure how it plays though).

 

Just tossing out ideas on Detention Field:  One big AV hold would be great for AVs, but kinda suck for the rest of the game.  OTOH a regular low-Mag AoE hold would be very useful in nearly any encounter and probably provide more utility and fun for most players.  Why not both?  Picking Detention Field give you two powers, one's a regular hold and one's an AV lockdown.  Using one locks the other out for the duration of the power (recharge + cast time).  This might be OP but again I thought I'd throw it out there.

 

[gameboy1234]

6 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Ok, solo I suppose but in a team the adds are gonna be blown away anyways...

This is actually a good point, and gets back to the core problem with Detention Field: it's not team friendly.  I personally can't remember the last time I've actually needed an AV taken out of a fight of while we dealt with the rest of the group.  I think the whole idea of an "AV hold" may be us chasing the wrong shadow.

 

So I think I'm back to "change Detention Field to a regular, small-AoE hold so that it's useful on small teams" because on large teams you're just not going to need it.

 

[Blackfeather]

4 minutes ago, gameboy1234 said:

So switching it to a hold would allow Elite Boss and AVs to be held if the Mag is high enough, right?

Well, yes. But what I'm saying is that I prefer the current status effect it inflicts - I'd just prefer if it were stronger, and could be cancelled early. That would be plenty enough for it to be more team friendly, along with providing additional utility in my mind. Any other changes to the power I'd say would be bonuses.

[gameboy1234]

Being able to cancel  DF early would make it more team friendly, even if nothing else was changed.  Fair point.

 

Edited January 10, 2020 by gameboy1234

[greenbodice]

6 minutes ago, gameboy1234 said:

This is actually a good point, and gets back to the core problem with Detention Field: it's not team friendly.  I personally can't remember the last time I've actually needed an AV taken out of a fight of while we dealt with the rest of the group.  I think the whole idea of an "AV hold" may be us chasing the wrong shadow.

 

So I think I'm back to "change Detention Field to a regular, small-AoE hold so that it's useful on small teams" because on large teams you're just not going to need it.

 

Detention Field is fantastic in the Miss Liberty Task Force when facing multiple AVs. 

 

But then again, most teams doing that TF bring multiple brutes/tankers, and the cooldown on detention field means the level of control isn’t that great anyway. 

 

The problem with controllers is that locking down an AV makes the fight not that fun. Now, is there any power that actually knocks down AVs or Monsters? Because a power that affected AVs like Force Bolt affects Bosses would be kind of amusing, especially if it had a secondary effect like recharge or damage debuff. 

[Monos King]

@gameboy1234 @Blackfeather @Galaxy Brain

Couldn't we just give it almighty AV level toggle hold but give it a no-phase like effect where it can only be maintained for a set time (up to minute on minions down to 20 sec on AVs) and call it a day? It would be FFs unique thing, a perfect hold...but only for so long before it goes on cooldown.

[Blackfeather]

4 minutes ago, monos1 said:

@gameboy1234 @Blackfeather @Galaxy Brain

Couldn't we just give it almighty AV level toggle hold but give it a no-phase like effect where it can only be maintained for a set time (up to minute on minions down to 20 sec on AVs) and call it a day? It would be FFs unique thing, a perfect hold...but only for so long before it goes on cooldown.

Bear in mind that whatever Detention Field gets, Sonic Cage is going to as well - it's basically the same effect, just on a different powerset.

 

I'd prefer not to change the effect that the power currently has; it has its niche already, it'd just benefit from better finesse, along with being able to affect AVs.

[Monos King]

Just now, Blackfeather said:

Bear in mind that whatever Detention Field gets, Sonic Cage is going to as well - it's basically the same effect, just on a different powerset.

Is that a code thing or just an expectation? Because they don't really have to be analogous to each other in reality.

[Blackfeather]

1 minute ago, monos1 said:

Is that a code thing or just an expectation? Because they don't really have to be analogous to each other in reality.

Expectation. Sonic Cage does the exact same thing, meaning it has the exact same pain points.

[Galaxy Brain]

Just curious, what benefit does the current cage have over a comparable high mag (4 from controller containment/ 6+ from doms) hold?