The Philotic Knight's Buff Force Fields 1.0!

[oedipus_tex]

8 hours ago, The Philotic Knight said:

Yyyyyeah... Someone that doesn't even know the names of the powers PROBABLY shouldn't be one of the ones to guide the discussion of the changes to those powers. 

 

Philotic, I respect your contributions to the community and I know that you are posting only because you want to see positive changes to the game, which is the same thing I want. I mixed up the words "Dispersion" and "Repulsion" because "Dispersion Bubble" is the name of a power in Force Field. Please respond to the idea without remarking on my credibility. Thank you.

Edited January 5, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[oedipus_tex]

10 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

If you meant Repulsion Bomb, then it's not a positioning power: it's soft control via knockdown and a chance to stun, with damage on the side. I understand that you don't like how Force Fields work - you've established that quite clearly already - but the least you can do is use the proper names of the powers in the set, and understand their functions (and again, here's a thread for Force Field reworks). And speaking as somebody who does like the power set, I personally enjoy what Repulsion Bomb does, though additional damage would be a very welcome change.

 

 

Repulsion Bomb got its name from its original effect. It was a power that you cast on a teammate that would cause the "bomb" looking graphic to knock enemies away from your teammate. In that form it was a positioning tool that was designed like a one-pulse Repel. When this power was converted to a quasi-attack, the rationale was that players who wanted to retain the knockback (they existed on the forums and said that changing the power would ruin the spirit of Force Field, no idea if anyone actually slots this for knockback for real) could slot knockback IOs.

 

Force Field was always supposed to be a set that was a master of positioning. It just isn't very good at it because of the limitations of knockback and repel. f I recall correctly, Repulsion Bomb dominated the list of "worst powers in the game" for years until it was changed.

 

The current Dispersion Repulsion Bomb (sorry, inside joke) has a 3.07 cast time. That is one of the longest in the game, more suggestive of a control power than an attack. It does have a 40% chance of a Mag 2 stun and some damage, although not damage you'd associate with an attack. It has a 30 second recharge and deals the same damage as Fistful of Arrows, which has a 1.17 cast time and recharges in 8 seconds. It does have a 40% chance to stun Minions. 

 

I've played Force Field to 50 3 times over the years and gotten to the mid 30s a half dozen times or so. I used to take Repulsion Bomb on Controllers but not Defenders, mainly because Controllers have so few other damage options. In the current game tho I'd pass on Repulsion Bomb for Force of Will.  

Edited January 5, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[gameboy1234]

On 6/21/2019 at 11:56 AM, PaxArcana said:

But I'm going to disagree with the suggestions for Repulsion Bomb.  not because I think it's okay - I don't, I think it's crap - but because I want to go in a completely different direction with it.

 

Literally.

 

I want to rename it Implosion, have it work exactly as it does now .... but, in a much larger area, and instead of knocking everything away from it's center, knock things TOWARDS the center! 

 

Yup, I'd like something like this too.  If Repulsion Bomb is now good and folks want to keep it, we can combine the two "Keep away" powers like I suggested earlier and just add a new power that does the implosion thing, but either way I'd like to see a "gather together" power that basically does the opposite of AoE KB.  Gather a bunch of foe into one spot.

 

[oedipus_tex]

20 minutes ago, gameboy1234 said:

 

Yup, I'd like something like this too.  If Repulsion Bomb is now good and folks want to keep it, we can combine the two "Keep away" powers like I suggested earlier and just add a new power that does the implosion thing, but either way I'd like to see a "gather together" power that basically does the opposite of AoE KB.  Gather a bunch of foe into one spot.

 

 

 

I didn't see Pax Arcana's suggestion earlier in the thread but I'm in total agreement. A implosion style power would be excellent for this power. They don't necessarily have to rename it, although I wouldn't mind. They didn't rename it when it changed from a Repulse power to a Knockdown. 

 

There are some technical hurdles with knocking enemies "in" toward a center, but you could teleport them instead. 

[Blackfeather]

1 hour ago, oedipus_tex said:

Repulsion Bomb got its name from its original effect. It was a power that you cast on a teammate that would cause the "bomb" looking graphic to knock enemies away from your teammate. In that form it was a positioning tool that was designed like a one-pulse Repel. When this power was converted to a quasi-attack, the rationale was that players who wanted to retain the knockback (they existed on the forums and said that changing the power would ruin the spirit of Force Field, no idea if anyone actually slots this for knockback for real) could slot knockback IOs.

 

Force Field was always supposed to be a set that was a master of positioning. It just isn't very good at it because of the limitations of knockback and repel. f I recall correctly, Repulsion Bomb dominated the list of "worst powers in the game" for years until it was changed.

 

The current Dispersion Repulsion Bomb (sorry, inside joke) has a 3.07 cast time. That is one of the longest in the game, more suggestive of a control power than an attack. It does have a 40% chance of a Mag 2 stun and some damage, although not damage you'd associate with an attack. It has a 30 second recharge and deals the same damage as Fistful of Arrows, which has a 1.17 cast time and recharges in 8 seconds. It does have a 40% chance to stun Minions. 

 

I've played Force Field to 50 3 times over the years and gotten to the mid 30s a half dozen times or so. I used to take Repulsion Bomb on Controllers but not Defenders, mainly because Controllers have so few other damage options. In the current game tho I'd pass on Repulsion Bomb for Force of Will.  

Your defense to your credibility on the topic of Force Fields is acknowledged, but irrelevant to the conversation. At the moment, Repulsion Bomb is a means of knocking down enemies with damage on the side, as I have stated. Additional damage would be ideal for it, and easily implemented. Pushing enemies together towards the centre of the radius? Perhaps it might be an improvement, but it's a modification that I'll object to until better reasons are given.

33 minutes ago, gameboy1234 said:

Yup, I'd like something like this too.  If Repulsion Bomb is now good and folks want to keep it, we can combine the two "Keep away" powers like I suggested earlier and just add a new power that does the implosion thing, but either way I'd like to see a "gather together" power that basically does the opposite of AoE KB.  Gather a bunch of foe into one spot.

Folding the functionality of Repulsion Field into Force Bubble (placing Force Bubble where the former power was originally gained)...I can get behind, actually, though the implementation might be tricky. Have Force Bubble include the whole different modes of operation suggestion I proposed before, with the inclusion another mode: PBAoE knockback, with the same features of Repulsion Field. Philotic, correct me if I'm wrong, but at the moment, turning on Repulsion Field -and- Force Bubble are somewhat conflicting goals - enemies will be pushed too far away to be affected by Repulsion Field anyhow.

 

I object to changing Repulsion Bomb into a mass enemy movement power, since I believe it fills up a different niche already, but this should free up space for a new power that can fill the gap - and to be more flexible with it. A mass gathering power could indeed be ideal in this situation.

[Galaxy Brain]

3 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

Steamrolling isn't a problem that's unique to any one power set - I'd argue that most if not all non-damaging powers are going to 'feel' irrelevant due to the sheer amount of people that are playing, be that from higher damage output, cumulative buffs, and what have you. That's not a Force Field issue, that's a system issue. Adding an Absorb mechanic isn't going to change that.

 

That being said, I'm kind of softening up to the idea, so long as the implementation of this is properly done (which is to say, Force Field functions and plays as is). So with that said, I'm thinking about something along the lines of adding features to the defense granting powers in the set: Deflection Shield, Insulation Shield, and Dispersion Bubble.

 

If the Absorb mechanic is considered, that's where I would put them, and implement them as Absorb over times (e.g. Spirit Ward), lasting the same duration as the defense boosts (they won't stack with successive applications of course, same as the boost to defenses) - I believe that's similar to what a good amount of Blasters have. How large of a temporary health gain this is, or how often it regenerates I'd leave as a question to the dev team.

My thoughts exactly. The ally defense powers could easily just gain absorb like Spirit Ward for the duration and they'd instantly have an additional niche while not being *functionally* different.

[oedipus_tex]

28 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

My thoughts exactly. The ally defense powers could easily just gain absorb like Spirit Ward for the duration and they'd instantly have an additional niche while not being *functionally* different.

 

It's not a bad idea. I think the mechanical aspect of it is the challenge. It's resolvable, but I think we need to think through the logistics.

 

For Dispersion Bubble, adding Absorb may not be very difficult. We have examples of Absorb toggles in the Blaster secondary sets. Ice Manipulation has one example. It's a toggle that places a small amount of Absorb on you every tick. Here's the power's profile in the detail view in game:

 

 

The game uses the term "Max Absorb" but really it just means "Absorb points." Absorb points have an amount and duration. The amount in this case is 60.24, lasting 3 seconds, non-stackable. My assumption is this could work in an AoE power like Dispersion Bubble without problem. 

 

 

With Deflection Shield and Insulation Shield, the difficulty is that these powers currently Recharge in 2 seconds. You'd have to figure out how to allow Force Field to apply Absorb without resulting in a scenario where Force Fielders are constantly casting the power. One solution would be to make it so the Absorb only applies on certain conditions. What you want to be careful of is putting Force Field in the position of it being an effective tactic to spam the shields. That's why I suggested doing to Detention Field what was done with the Medicine pool's injection power. Detention Field recharges in 60 seconds, in my mind the perfect Recharge time for a big, healthy chunk of +Absorb. I'd probably make the value granted a Percentage and set the value at around +35% on a Defender. I'm basing that value on Nature Affinity's Wild Bastion power, which grants 25% Absorb in a PBAoE, hitting more targets and the caster, but having a much less friendly Recharge (240 seconds--this is a true "Gather Power").

[Blackfeather]

6 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

With Deflection Shield and Insulation Shield, the difficulty is that these powers currently Recharge in 2 seconds. You'd have to figure out how to allow Force Field to apply Absorb without resulting in a scenario where Force Fielders are constantly casting the power.

We already discussed how this would work - the absorb over time would last the same amount of time as the defense boosts, with each shield possessing a small amount of absorption. It would not stack, regardless of how many times the shields were reapplied: each shield would provide a passive, regenerating chunk of temporary health - only the duration of the absorb would be extended by multiple applications.

 

Dispersion Bubble would do the same, the only difference being that the tics of temporary health would refresh for players inside the shield, going away soon afterwards if not. I'm still not entirely convinced that Force Field needs an absorb mechanic, but implementing it this way prevents a change in playstyle from how the power set currently functions - that's vitally important for people who like how Force Field works.

[oedipus_tex]

9 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

We already discussed how this would work - the absorb over time would last the same amount of time as the defense boosts, with each shield possessing a small amount of absorption. It would not stack, regardless of how many times the shields were reapplied: each shield would provide a passive, regenerating chunk of temporary health - only the duration of the absorb would be extended by multiple applications.

 

Dispersion Bubble would do the same, the only difference being that the tics of temporary health would refresh for players inside the shield, going away soon afterwards if not. I'm still not entirely convinced that Force Field needs an absorb mechanic, but implementing it this way prevents a change in playstyle from how the power set currently functions - that's vitally important for people who like how Force Field works.

 

 

Does Absorb work that way though? There are only 2 types of absorb I can think of:

• The toggle kind that exists in Blaster secondaries that adds back a little Absorb each pulse. The Absorb has a short duration (generally 3 seconds) that is constantly expiring, preventing the character from building up a huge block of absorb from multiple ticks. The net effect is chipping off a lot of damage if it comes in slowly, say through a DoT, but doing little to absorb big alphas. 
• The cast kind that instantly applies a large volume of Absorb. This is the kind that Nature Affinity has in Wild Bastion. The Absorb lasts until it expires (I think this is one minute but the in game power data is hard to read on Absorb times) or it is dropped from taking hits. This kind is equally good at handling damage over time or a huge alpha strike.

 

Is there an "Absorb Over Time" power in the game? There are "Heal Over Time" powers (example: Temporal Mending in the Time set). Is there an Absorb Over Time I've missed? I would think the effect of that power would mean with every tick your max Absorb steadily creeps up. The only Absorb over time effects I know of rely on toggles were the Absorb constantly expires and is then reapplied. But I may have missed a power.

Edited January 6, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Blackfeather]

1 minute ago, oedipus_tex said:

Is there an "Absorb Over Time" power in the game? There are "Heal Over Time" powers (example: Temporal Mending in the Time set). Is there an Absorb Over Time I've missed? I would think the effect of that power would mean with every tick your max Absorb steadily creeps up. The only Absorb over time effects I know of rely on toggles were the Absorb constantly expires and is then reapplied. But I may have missed a power.

Please read through our posts again - we explicitly mentioned Spirit Ward as an example of this already, and is a good example of how it would work.

[gameboy1234]

2 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

Folding the functionality of Repulsion Field into Force Bubble (placing Force Bubble where the former power was originally gained)...I can get behind, actually, though the implementation might be tricky.

The idea is that combining two powers into one is OK, since they basically do the same thing (I always thought it odd that FF had those two powers that seemed nearly identical.)  One way to combine them would be just to put the KB and Repel effect into the same PBAoE power.  I think that would work.

 

The idea here is to free up one additional slot, so that we can add a whole new power without disturbing the rest of the set too much.  Now that I think about it, we have powers now that add three powers for just one pick (Bio Armor does this, for ex.).  With one new slot power in FF, we could add more than one power to the set.  So a few more ways to spice up FF exist if we do that.

 

[Blackfeather]

13 minutes ago, gameboy1234 said:

The idea is that combining two powers into one is OK, since they basically do the same thing (I always thought it odd that FF had those two powers that seemed nearly identical.)  One way to combine them would be just to put the KB and Repel effect into the same PBAoE power.  I think that would work.

 

The idea here is to free up one additional slot, so that we can add a whole new power without disturbing the rest of the set too much.  Now that I think about it, we have powers now that add three powers for just one pick (Bio Armor does this, for ex.).  With one new slot power in FF, we could add more than one power to the set.  So a few more ways to spice up FF exist if we do that.

 

I disagree with adding both Knockback and the Repel of Force Bubble into Repulsion Field, due to the fact that both powers have wildly different applications. I'd prefer Repulsion Field to be folded into Force Bubble as another mode of operation (though shifted to where Repulsion Field is), like I have suggested here (making it able to switch between four different 'stances' so to speak). However, I can agree with the sentiment of freeing up one power to allow more flexibility of choice, without the removal of functionality.

[oedipus_tex]

12 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

Please read through our posts again - we explicitly mentioned Spirit Ward as an example of this already, and is a good example of how it would work.

 

So the answer is "Yes." Thanks.

 

I am not that familiar with Spirit Ward because it was added very late in the game's cycle. I just took a look at it on the test server. It does appear to be a third kind of "Absorb" power. Each tick of Absorption is applied manually with a delay.

 

 

 

So, it could work in Deflection Shield, but you'd need to manually add ticks for every delay in re-application. How often do you envision a Force Fielder re-applying the power? If it's every 4 minutes like the current duration of Deflection Shield and the absorb reapplied every 3 seconds, you'd need 80 instances of manual reapplication in the code. You could get that number down to 24 ticks if you were ok with a reapply only every 10 seconds though. It's an interesting thought. 

[_NOPE_]

1 hour ago, gameboy1234 said:

The idea is that combining two powers into one is OK, since they basically do the same thing (I always thought it odd that FF had those two powers that seemed nearly identical.)  One way to combine them would be just to put the KB and Repel effect into the same PBAoE power.  I think that would work.

 

The idea here is to free up one additional slot, so that we can add a whole new power without disturbing the rest of the set too much.  Now that I think about it, we have powers now that add three powers for just one pick (Bio Armor does this, for ex.).  With one new slot power in FF, we could add more than one power to the set.  So a few more ways to spice up FF exist if we do that.

 

If you want to free up a slot, merge Deflection and Insulation Shields into a single ally shield, and double the endurance cost. BAM! Free power slot to play with. Problem solved. 

 

Just leave my two VERY different powers alone and don't merge them. 

Edited January 6, 2020 by The Philotic Knight

[Blackfeather]

8 minutes ago, The Philotic Knight said:

If you want to free up a slot, merge Deflection and Insulation Shields into a single ally shield, and double the endurance cost. BAM! Free power slot to play with. Problem solved. 

 

Just leave my two VERY different powers alone and don't merge them. 

I brought up the whole idea of integrating Repulsion Field into Force Bubble a little while back - perhaps as a different mode to it (with the caveat that Force Bubble is shifted to where Repulsion Field currently sits)? The latter activated means that there's little chance the former will be activated after all, and doing so would mean less of an endurance drain with only one single toggle handling all the functions. There might have been a scenario which I've missed where both Force Bubble and Repulsion Field may be needed in tandem, however.

 

Something like:

• Four different modes of operation for Force Bubble
• Regular Force Bubble = same radius, same magnitude
• Focused Force Bubble = smaller radius, higher magnitude, slow to prevent faster enemies pushing through?
• Diffuse Force Bubble = larger radius (out of range of most ranged attacks), lower magnitude (bosses and up can pass through)
• Repulsion Force Bubble = same functionality as Repulsion Field - PBAoE knockback field

[oedipus_tex]

I agree Deflection and Insulation Shield are the two most natural powers to merge. We just need to keep in mind that whatever replaces Insulation Shield would have to be a Defense power. There are existing characters with Luck of the Gambler and other IOs slotted in both powers, to avoid character corruption the new power has to take similar sets. A potential replacement for Insulation Shield would be self cast only, keep IS's graphic, and apply a minor amount of Defense, some Absorb, and the Recovery and Endurance Resistance that exist in Insulation Shield. Currently, Force Field grants great Recovery and Endurance resistance to to teammates but gets none for themselves.

 

 

 

 

 

[_NOPE_]

On 1/4/2020 at 9:35 PM, oedipus_tex said:

Feel free to say no, but adding to the list of possibilities, would it be feasible to add teleport to Dispersion Bomb so that it teleports struck enemies to its center point? Like as in you throw it, and everything within that radius teleports to the blast area's center point. That would be a positioning power I'd actually use, even with the extremely slow animation.

The personal jibe was inappropriate, you're right about that, and I apologize for it. However, post after post shows that you really don't LIKE the Force Fields set. You just... don't. Thus, I don't think that your opinion should be given much weight in any changes to the set. The opinions of those that enjoy the set as it is should be given greater weight. This opinion would be fine - as a new power that doesn't replace an existing power. We already have examples in the Power Pools of the Paragon Studios devs offering players a CHOICE of alternative powers to choose from other than the traditional powers. If you really want to "go nuts" with new power ideas, that'd be the route to go.

[Galaxy Brain]

2 hours ago, The Philotic Knight said:

We already have examples in the Power Pools of the Paragon Studios devs offering players a CHOICE of alternative powers to choose from other than the traditional powers.

Which ones? IIRC Sentinel Super Reflexes was made by Homecoming, and is the only such example

[_NOPE_]

Example, the Medicine pool (https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Medicine). When it was started, it looked like this:

 

	Power	Level	Effect
	Aid Other	6	Close, Ally Heal
	Stimulant	6	Ranged, +Status Protection(Ally, PvE), +Status Resistance(Ally, PvP)
	Aid Self	14	Self, Heal, +Res(Stun)
	Resuscitate	20	Close, Resurrect(Ally)

 

By Issue 24, it looked like this:

	Power	Level	Effect
	Aid Other	4	Close, Ally Heal
	Injection	4	Ranged, +Status Protection(Ally, PvE), +Status Resistance(Ally, PvP) OR -DMG(Foe, All), -Rech(Foe), -ToHit(Foe)
	Aid Self	14	Self, Heal, +Res(Stun), +EndGain(Synergy)
	Resuscitate	14	Close, Resurrect(Ally)
	Field Medic	14	Self, +Heal, -Res(Heal), Special

 

THREE different powers to choose from at level 14, where before, there was just one. And ALL pool powers only used to have FOUR choices. They increased that for most if not all power pools to five choices. So, there's a precedent for powersets to have multiple choices at the same level.

[Galaxy Brain]

Ohhhh, I thought you meant exclusive choices. If you take A, you are locked out of B

[_NOPE_]

I suppose that'd be an option too, I guess. I think the evolution of the temperement of the devs showed though that they were starting to "give stuff away" to players more than they had in the past with each year - reducing requirements for power picks, reducing level requirements, etc. etc.

 

I kind of doubt that they'd force the playerbase today to choose one power over another.

[Galaxy Brain]

I guess I am confused by the ask then. Are you saying force fields should get an extra power you can take compared to all other sets which only have 9? The only other set to do that is sentinel super reflexes and that locks you out of another option depending on which you pick.

[oedipus_tex]

5 hours ago, The Philotic Knight said:

The personal jibe was inappropriate, you're right about that, and I apologize for it. However, post after post shows that you really don't LIKE the Force Fields set. You just... don't. Thus, I don't think that your opinion should be given much weight in any changes to the set. The opinions of those that enjoy the set as it is should be given greater weight. This opinion would be fine - as a new power that doesn't replace an existing power. We already have examples in the Power Pools of the Paragon Studios devs offering players a CHOICE of alternative powers to choose from other than the traditional powers. If you really want to "go nuts" with new power ideas, that'd be the route to go.

 

I feel like every player reading this forum somehow tracked this game down from obscurity and has their own individual passion for it. What we all share in common is a strong connection to it, and with it that sometimes comes strong opinions like you and I have. 

 

I think Force Field is a cool concept with interesting powers that are not reaching their potential. In that sense I feel the same way about Force Field that I do about Sonic Resonance and Trick Arrow. I hope we can agree that an opinion that these sets underperform does not lock me or any one else out conversations on how to improve them. I have played this set plenty, and found it to deserve developer attention. 

 

I can appreciate that some players enjoy the weird interesting aspects of Force Field, and that even for some players a chance to play a Force Field character again after a 7 year break would be very exciting. That passion is admirable. I can see how suggestions being made by a person they don't view as sufficiently invested could be threatening. Hopefully it will be reassuring to hear that in my view, and hopefully the view of the developers, massive changes to the set that take away what players find interesting about it would be a bad thing.

The original suggestions you made were good. Some of the suggestions other people made in this thread are good. Some of the suggestions I made (in my opinion) are good. Conversation is good,

[Monos King]

On 6/21/2019 at 12:06 PM, Galaxy Brain said:

No +absorb anywhere?

I don't think it should, I like it being a defense beast. If you must, maybe the toggle AoE could offer the same effect as spiritual bastion or whatever the sorcery pools +absorb is called.

 

Edit: Looks like that has been discussed already.

Edited January 7, 2020 by monos1
I got response happy

[Galaxy Brain]

7 hours ago, monos1 said:

I don't think it should, I like it being a defense beast. If you must, maybe the toggle AoE could offer the same effect as spiritual bastion or whatever the sorcery pools +absorb is called.

 

Edit: Looks like that has been discussed already.

Being awesome at defense is cool until you look at the meta currently where it gets devalued by many players having Maneuvers + IO builds that boost defense. Adding another layer on top of the defense gives it another edge.