Sorcery Powerset

[megaericzero]

2 hours ago, Player2 said:

But also offer alternate animations with more generic effects for people that might be interested in the powers but not the "magic" theme.

1 hour ago, Player2 said:

even if you reasonably offer alternatives like alternate animations with and without the spellcasting animations/effects,

So then why can't it be called Elemental Blast with animations that apply to a broader spectrum and have the [magic/arcane/whatever] animations as the alternate?

 

2 hours ago, Player2 said:

"just play Energy Blast; you don't need it to come from a gun.  It can be technology like Iron Man's energy beam gauntlets if you take the right Gloves costume option or you could just pretend you have a gun."

2 minutes ago, Player2 said:

What makes that set "Beam" but not Energy Blast?  Some of the Fire Blast attacks look like beams to me... Radiation Blasts, too.  Even Dark Blast has some dark beams.

And again... yeah - Beam Rifle really probably should've been an update to Energy Blast alongside the implementation of a "choose your casting method" customization update where you can choose most any set to have (or not have) a weapon - guns, staves, gauntlets, tomes, etc. It's an idea some of us have suggested/supported before in other threads as well as putting slews of alternate animations to existing sets that let them be more magical, more feral (slashing/breath animations), more bender-y (martial arts animations), etc.

[Rudra]

6 minutes ago, Player2 said:

36 minutes ago, biostem said:

You're obfuscating the question - how would this translate into the game?  What would make this proposed set "arcane", but not fire blasts?  What would make this set, necessarily, come from or otherwise be derived from secret rites or long-lost practices?  Could electrical blast be arcane?  Could radiation blast?  You'll note that we have psychic blasts, but it doesn't mention you have a mutation or that you're of a race that has natural telepathy.  Powersets don't tell you that they come from secret techniques or mysterious corners of the CoH universe, only what they do or what kind of effects they produce.

How does Beam Rifle translate into the game?  What makes that set "Beam" but not Energy Blast?  Some of the Fire Blast attacks look like beams to me... Radiation Blasts, too.  Even Dark Blast has some dark beams.  What did we need a Beam Rifle for?  And what about the name Beam Rifle informs the player of its damage type or effects?  How does "beam" or "rifle" or the combination of the words tell us about the disintegration effects?  How does "Beam Rifle" do anything but let people know they'll have an Energy Blast that isn't the Energy Blast powerset?

I made no mention of beam rifle. I asked you to explain secret blast sets, obscure blast sets, or mysterious blast sets. You know, what an "Arcane Blast" set means by definition? So how about that explanation?

 

Though if you want to know how Beam Rifle as a set name tells anyone about its disintegration mechanic? It tells people as much about its  disintegration mechanic as Assault Rifle tells others it will have a flamethrower and a fire patch generator, or Seismic Blast summons a meteor from space, or that a Peacebringer is an energy being, or that claws have a ranged attack, and so on and so forth. However, unlike your secret blast, obscure blast, or mysterious blast, people do still know that the assault rifle set has a rifle that shoots bullets, a beam rifle set has a rifle that fires beams, the seismic set probably makes use of rocks, and the claws set has claws. What is a secret set? Or an obscure set? Or a mysterious set? Does the secret set throw a bunch of classified folders at their enemies?

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

Does the secret set throw a bunch of classified folders at their enemies?

We need this!

[Player2]

1 minute ago, megaericzero said:

So then why can't it be called Elemental Blast with animations that apply to a broader spectrum and have the [magic/arcane/whatever] animations as the alternate?

 

And again... yeah - Beam Rifle really probably should've been an update to Energy Blast alongside the implementation of a "choose your casting method" customization update where you can choose most any set to have (or not have) a weapon - guns, staves, gauntlets, tomes, etc. It's an idea some of us have suggested/supported before in other threads as well as putting slews of alternate animations to existing sets that let them be more magical, more feral (slashing/breath animations), more bender-y (martial arts animations), etc.

Why does it have to be elemental?  Maybe it could be a combination of a base of Energy damage with toggles like Dual Pistols that let you switch to Dark, Psi, and Lethal with additional effects based on which toggle you use.

[Player2]

2 minutes ago, biostem said:

We need this!

Nothing you feel is needed is wanted by me, therefore no one can have it.

[Rudra]

 

21 minutes ago, Player2 said:

Go away, Rudra.  Nothing you have to say is worth reading.  You contribute nothing useful to the discussion; you just want to dismiss it because you don't like/want it, so I've no interest in trying to justify the definition of a word I've already explained away.  You argue just to argue because you don't want anyone else to have something you don't want.  It's like telling someone they can't have a glass of water because you're not thirsty.

So in other words, you have no explanation for a secret blast, obscure blast, or mysterious blast, hence no explanation for an arcane blast as you are insisting it means. So you truly are just using "arcane" for magic as it is generally understood at least in pop culture instead of what it actually means.

[Player2]

4 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Though if you want to know how Beam Rifle as a set name tells anyone about its disintegration mechanic? It tells people as much about its  disintegration mechanic as Assault Rifle tells others it will have a flamethrower and a fire patch generator, or Seismic Blast summons a meteor from space, or that a Peacebringer is an energy being, or that claws have a ranged attack, and so on and so forth.

Exactly.  It's just a descriptive word that you and Biostem are asking to have it justify the inner workings of the powerset.

 

Just stop.  I get it, you don't want it and you'll ignore whatever explanations you need and insist whatever nonsense you want to justify that no one else should have it.

 

You've made it very clear that you have nothing useful to contribute to the discussion, and once again I've wasted my time by stopping the nonsense rebuttals and trying to have a discussion with you despite knowing that you are inherently wrong and nothing you have to say is worth hearing or reading.

[Player2]

3 minutes ago, Rudra said:

 

So in other words, you have no explanation for a secret blast, obscure blast, or mysterious blast, hence no explanation for an arcane blast as you are insisting it means. So you truly are just using "arcane" for magic as it is generally understood at least in pop culture instead of what it actually means.

And you have nothing useful to contribute at all, yet you continue posting responses... so here we are.

[Rudra]

8 minutes ago, Player2 said:

Exactly.  It's just a descriptive word that you and Biostem are asking to have it justify the inner workings of the powerset.

 

Just stop.  I get it, you don't want it and you'll ignore whatever explanations you need and insist whatever nonsense you want to justify that no one else should have it.

 

You've made it very clear that you have nothing useful to contribute to the discussion, and once again I've wasted my time by stopping the nonsense rebuttals and trying to have a discussion with you despite knowing that you are inherently wrong and nothing you have to say is worth hearing or reading.

If you want a multi-element set, then make one and give it a suitably generic name. If you want to mix different damage types, propose the set and give it a suitably generic name. If you insist on a magic set regardless of whether you call it "arcane" and then try to hide behind a definition you are obviously not using, then expect to be opposed.

 

Edited March 12 by Rudra
Edited to correct an apostrophe to a quotation mark.

[Player2]

So screw it.

 

We need a MAGIC BLAST power set that is 100% absolutely spellcastery looking with both its animations and effects with no alternate options in power customizations.  Just a magic themed power set for its own sake just BECAUSE Rudra and some others don't want it.  That right there SHOULD be justification enough to start work on it right away.

[Player2]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

If you want a multi-element set, then make one and give it a suitably generic name. If you want to mix different damage types, propose the set and give it a suitably generic name. If you insist on a magic set regardless of whether you call it "arcane' and then try to hide behind a definition you are obviously not using, then expect to be opposed.

ARCANE IS GENERIC.

 

YOU are the one that refuses to accept that words have meanings that don't fit with your personal view of what you think they should mean.

[Player2]

If you choose to be willfully ignorant of word definitions, that's your problem.  Stop trying to make it everyone else's problem.

[Rudra]

Just now, Player2 said:

ARCANE IS GENERIC.

 

YOU are the one that refuses to accept that words have meanings that don't fit with your personal view of what you think they should mean.

Arcane means secret, obscure, or mysterious. So explain the secret power set. Or the obscure power set. Or the mysterious power set. The things the word you are using mean but does not correlate to anything that can be animated or defined as a power set. How is the Arcane Blast set secret, obscure, or mysterious? What effects will it generate that are encapsulated by "secret", "obscure", or "mysterious". If you can't define that, then you are not using the definition you are claiming to be.

[Major_Decoy]

45 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Arcane means secret, obscure, or mysterious. So explain the secret power set. Or the obscure power set. Or the mysterious power set. The things the word you are using mean but does not correlate to anything that can be animated or defined as a power set. How is the Arcane Blast set secret, obscure, or mysterious? What effects will it generate that are encapsulated by "secret", "obscure", or "mysterious". If you can't define that, then you are not using the definition you are claiming to be.

I'm guessing you used the Merriam Webster dictionary.

 

But language is use and City of Heroes has strong Dungeons & Dragons influences and there "Arcane Casting" has a very distinct meaning.

 

Perhaps "Occult Casting" would have been better, but we're a few decades late to that discussion.

[Player2]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

Arcane means secret, obscure, or mysterious. So explain the secret power set. 

No.  I've humored you far too much already.  You argue just because you don't like the idea of it.  I'm done with you.

[Player2]

1 hour ago, Major_Decoy said:

I'm guessing you used the Merriam Webster dictionary.

 

But language is use and City of Heroes has strong Dungeons & Dragons influences and there "Arcane Casting" has a very distinct meaning.

 

Perhaps "Occult Casting" would have been better, but we're a few decades late to that discussion.

Nope.  I chose the word I think works best.

 

Here's the thing, Major... if it sounds like there's a magical spellcasting connection:  Good!

The idea proposed was for a magic-themed powerset.  I try to steer the discussion along to make concessions like using Arcane Blast instead of Magic Blast and suggesting alternate generic animations and effects for the purpose of appeasing people that wouldn't want a magical spellcasting powerset.  But ideally, it would be to fill that gap and then alternative uses for whoever else... not a generic whatever set that can also have alternate spellcasting animations.

[Major_Decoy]

29 minutes ago, Player2 said:

Nope.  I chose the word I think works best.

 

Here's the thing, Major... if it sounds like there's a magical spellcasting connection:  Good!

The idea proposed was for a magic-themed powerset.  I try to steer the discussion along to make concessions like using Arcane Blast instead of Magic Blast and suggesting alternate generic animations and effects for the purpose of appeasing people that wouldn't want a magical spellcasting powerset.  But ideally, it would be to fill that gap and then alternative uses for whoever else... not a generic whatever set that can also have alternate spellcasting animations.

Everything I said was directed entirely at Rudra and your response is kind of nonsensical because of that. Hence the "a few decades" because Arcane casters have been a thing since at least third edition (with Arcane Lore meaning "Lore having to do with magic" since at least "The Complete Bard's Handbook" for AD&D published in 1992).

 

Edit: It does talk about Wizards learning arcane languages in the core AD&D rule book, but that's arcane in the sense of archaic, esoteric, or lost languages. Languages that are really uncommonly spoken in current times.

Edited March 12 by Major_Decoy

[Chris24601]

Counter-proposal; we need a “Player2 Blast” set; nine identical powers that deal psychic damage, a huge debuff to speed and recharge (representing the complete waste of time involved) and flashes “You’re Wrong!” in big red letters (like Freem!) when they hit.

[Sunsette]

 

7 hours ago, megaericzero said:

And again... yeah - Beam Rifle really probably should've been an update to Energy Blast alongside the implementation of a "choose your casting method" customization update where you can choose most any set to have (or not have) a weapon - guns, staves, gauntlets, tomes, etc. It's an idea some of us have suggested/supported before in other threads as well as putting slews of alternate animations to existing sets that let them be more magical, more feral (slashing/breath animations), more bender-y (martial arts animations), etc.

 

My speculation is that Beam Rifle as an update to energy blast probably would not have been possible without either allowing for weird jank that devs don't like to implement because it looks unpolished (like letting people use rifle animations but set no rifle costume part) or a significant overhaul to the art systems. The current costume system and animation system are really not designed for that kind of freedom.

 

But I personally think it's a good thing that Beam Rifle, like Bio, was added. New sets, new ways to play now that we have most of the more generic things handled.

 

I think a Sorcery or Chaos powerset would be best done as a Control powerset, something like...

 

T1: Bind: Ranged, Light DMG (Psionic), Immobilize. Creates force chains that hold the target at bay and chain them to the ground. Prevents them from being knocked.

T2: Transmute: Ranged, Moderate DMG (Toxic), Foe Hold. Partially turns the target's skin to gold, paralyzing and poisoning them. Prevents them from being knocked.

T3: Flock of Feathers: Ranged AoE, Light DMG (Lethal), Knockup. Summons a flock of doves that swarm the target and carry them upwards briefly while slashing at their face. Deals increased damage to targets that resist being knocked.

T4: Horrifying Light: Ranged AoE, Target Fear. Uses illusionary images and bizarre flashing patterns of light to overwhelm the target. Uses Energy as a defense.

T5: Mark of Chaos: Location AoE, Major DoT (Energy), Immobilize. Burns chaos energy into the ground at the targeted location such that the enemy does not even notice. Several seconds later, the trap is primed and will activate as soon as any enemies are within range. Chaos traps can be placed quickly and you may have up to (number) active at once; using this ability an additional time when you are already at the maximum removes your oldest trap. 

T6: Dark Bargain: Melee, Special. Uses Dark as a defense. Increases the magnitude and duration of any existing controls you have on the target at the cost of hit points.

T7: Mass Transmutation: Ranged AoE, Moderate DMG (Toxic), Foe Hold. See: Transmute.

T8: Ytivarg-Modnar Field: Location AoE, Foe Slow Movement, Recharge Slow, Ally +Speed. Uses Psionic as a defense. Distorts the gravity in a location to be shifting, with bubbles of stability for your allies. 

T9: Stochastic Gate: Summon Ally. Uses the body of a defeated enemy to summon assistance. The pet called depends on the faction of the targeted enemy, summoning an enemy that hates them. Using a Longbow to summon would get a Fortunata, using a Rularuu would get a Midnighter, etc.

 

I have not theorycrafted a new set ever before now and I'm not very versed in control sets so this is probably wildly imbalanced, just some general ideas. Honestly, for all I know, it's terrible -- the point is just to illustrate what a thematically coherent but distinct set might look like that isn't easily encompassed by primary/secondary combos we have now, with a mind towards reuse of existing art assets as much as feasible. 

Edited March 12 by Sunsette

[Galaxy Brain]

Theres a lot of blinders going on in this thread... starting from the top:

 

Power Customization can only go so far. IIRC, things like making an alt theme for Fire Blast that uses the Beam Rifle for "fire rifle" is not feasbile due to the way the game is set up. Especially if you could customize each power to where Flares is from the gun, and Fire Blast from your hands it would break your character animations or something to that effect. The animations and emmision points for projectiles/FX are really baked in and make it very hard to swap around freely, especially with weapons involved. Im sure if they could have made swaps where you could use Crane Kick to shoot blaze ala Fire Bending, that would have already been tackled 😞

 

There are already sets that heavily imply an origin. For example, Traps, Robotics, Devices, and Assault Rifle, Arsenal Control/Assault all heavily imply the use of technology with the defaults/majority being all tech weapons or even typing on a wrist-pad to summon your powers. Demon Summoning blatantly uses demonic runes to summon your minions, as does Necromancy to a degree... though off the top of my head I cant think of any other magic-leaning sets aside from Sorcery Pool (obv), and possibly all the dark sets as they lean in on the netherworld. Bio Armor as mentioned also more leans on Mutation/Science. Point being, there is already precedent for some sets leaning more towards certain origins than others. A Sorcery/Magic/Arcane/Chaos blast set is not out of the question based on that, and if anything seems due to counterbalance all the tech-ish ones we already have!

 

That is not to say you cant hand-wave the how for each of these. Your robotics character could be summoning magically produced constructs, while your demon summoner could be calling up demons from a Doomdash service on their smart phone. That doesnt change that the default aesthetics sort of lean one way or the other and from point 1, may not be as flexible as we like but as players its our job to be creative with the tools we are given.

 

 

Aesthetics and Mechanics should have equal weight. Lastly, just because one set may be aesthetically similar to another, does not mean they would offer the same gameplay. Beam Rifle and Energy Blast both shoot energy at enemies, both can even knock back! However, both play out very differently witj EB being all about knocks and having a PBAoE nuke, and BR has the disintegrate mechanic and is more range based. Same with Elec Blast and Storm Blast both having electrical powers but one is based on sapping and the other location-based/debuffing. War Mace and Battle Axe even sharing the same animations but having power to power differences. So on and so forth.  Just because you can currently emulate the feel with an existing set or there is something similar  (elec/storm pre storm blast) does not mean a new set cannot be made that offers a different style of gameplay within that aesthetic!

 

The only tricky bit would be to find out what exactly "sorcery" would do to stand out. Fittingly, my mind immediately went to Cursing a target like with Beam Rifle, but then having different effects for Cursed targets than what we see in Disintegrate. We just gotta be creative is all 🙂

 

 

[Rudra]

8 hours ago, Major_Decoy said:

I'm guessing you used the Merriam Webster dictionary.

 

But language is use and City of Heroes has strong Dungeons & Dragons influences and there "Arcane Casting" has a very distinct meaning.

 

Perhaps "Occult Casting" would have been better, but we're a few decades late to that discussion.

To be fair, the use of arcane in reference to magic, specifically as a type of magic as used by game systems such as D&D, makes sense. As an arcane spellcaster, the character knows the secret of manipulating the mysterious force of mana, aether, or whatever the magic force or energy itself is called. As opposed to say clerics that draw their magic from their deities and without their deities providing that magic, that person cannot use magic. Or the spiritualist who contacts spirits such as loa and beseeches them for favors in the form of magical effects. So arcane as used in the context of those systems works because out of everyone that may wield magic, only those that know the secret of magic itself can use it without outside assistance.

 

Hence, arcane has come to be acknowledged, at least in pop culture and similar veins, as magic. The issue with what @Player2 is saying is that (s)he/they want a specifically magic set and is seemingly unwilling to accept alternate animations, additional auras, additional costume pieces, or any other possible fix for presenting a magic character unless their powers are specifically labeled as magic.

[Rudra]

3 hours ago, Sunsette said:

 

 

My speculation is that Beam Rifle as an update to energy blast probably would not have been possible without either allowing for weird jank that devs don't like to implement because it looks unpolished (like letting people use rifle animations but set no rifle costume part) or a significant overhaul to the art systems. The current costume system and animation system are really not designed for that kind of freedom.

 

But I personally think it's a good thing that Beam Rifle, like Bio, was added. New sets, new ways to play now that we have most of the more generic things handled.

 

I think a Sorcery or Chaos powerset would be best done as a Control powerset, something like...

 

T1: Bind: Ranged, Light DMG (Psionic), Immobilize. Creates force chains that hold the target at bay and chain them to the ground. Prevents them from being knocked.

T2: Transmute: Ranged, Moderate DMG (Toxic), Foe Hold. Partially turns the target's skin to gold, paralyzing and poisoning them. Prevents them from being knocked.

T3: Flock of Feathers: Ranged AoE, Light DMG (Lethal), Knockup. Summons a flock of doves that swarm the target and carry them upwards briefly while slashing at their face. Deals increased damage to targets that resist being knocked.

T4: Horrifying Light: Ranged AoE, Target Fear. Uses illusionary images and bizarre flashing patterns of light to overwhelm the target. Uses Energy as a defense.

T5: Mark of Chaos: Location AoE, Major DoT (Energy), Immobilize. Burns chaos energy into the ground at the targeted location such that the enemy does not even notice. Several seconds later, the trap is primed and will activate as soon as any enemies are within range. Chaos traps can be placed quickly and you may have up to (number) active at once; using this ability an additional time when you are already at the maximum removes your oldest trap. 

T6: Dark Bargain: Melee, Special. Uses Dark as a defense. Increases the magnitude and duration of any existing controls you have on the target at the cost of hit points.

T7: Mass Transmutation: Ranged AoE, Moderate DMG (Toxic), Foe Hold. See: Transmute.

T8: Ytivarg-Modnar Field: Location AoE, Foe Slow Movement, Recharge Slow, Ally +Speed. Uses Psionic as a defense. Distorts the gravity in a location to be shifting, with bubbles of stability for your allies. 

T9: Stochastic Gate: Summon Ally. Uses the body of a defeated enemy to summon assistance. The pet called depends on the faction of the targeted enemy, summoning an enemy that hates them. Using a Longbow to summon would get a Fortunata, using a Rularuu would get a Midnighter, etc.

 

I have not theorycrafted a new set ever before now and I'm not very versed in control sets so this is probably wildly imbalanced, just some general ideas. Honestly, for all I know, it's terrible -- the point is just to illustrate what a thematically coherent but distinct set might look like that isn't easily encompassed by primary/secondary combos we have now, with a mind towards reuse of existing art assets as much as feasible. 

A Chaos power set could actually work. It portrays that it is itself not tied down to a single or small group of types, is not tied to any specific origin, and can explain why a bunch of disparate effects are in a single set.

[megaericzero]

3 hours ago, Sunsette said:

My speculation is that Beam Rifle as an update to energy blast probably would not have been possible without either allowing for weird jank that devs don't like to implement because it looks unpolished (like letting people use rifle animations but set no rifle costume part) or a significant overhaul to the art systems. The current costume system and animation system are really not designed for that kind of freedom.

Oh definitely; SCR is always relevant.

 

Funny anecdote: I went to check Beam Rifle's animations via COH Titan's icon in expanded mode and forgot to set a rifle so, since the UI defaulted to none instead of legacy, the animations' origin point was the character's pelvis.

 

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

IIRC, things like making an alt theme for Fire Blast that uses the Beam Rifle for "fire rifle" is not feasbile due to the way the game is set up. Especially if you could customize each power to where Flares is from the gun, and Fire Blast from your hands it would break your character animations or something to that effect. The animations and emmision points for projectiles/FX are really baked in and make it very hard to swap around freely, especially with weapons involved. Im sure if they could have made swaps where you could use Crane Kick to shoot blaze ala Fire Bending, that would have already been tackled

Very likely spaghetti issues. I believe Laser Beam Eyes (X-Ray Beam?) has an alternate animation where the lasers come from your fist. That could be evidence that alternate emanation points are possible - at least in non-weapon to non-weapon applications. We may never know how much of a duct-tape solution the alternate animations/fx options are without a dev informing us.

 

On the flip side, I would hope that gets looked at long before we end up with, for example, Fire Blast, Fire Rifle, Flaming Bow, Burning Sludge, Pyromancy, and Fire Bending all as separate power sets in a single category (blast in this case).

[Sunsette]

The funny thing is that I don't remotely want a Chaos powerset for myself. It's not a kind of magic that I've ever been interested in; even when I play D&D, I tend to avoid that kind of wizard. And I don't like magical characters in comic books, with a handful of exceptions.

 

But I believe it's a reasonable desire and it's not something the game illustrates very well despite being a type of power that shows up in comics fairly often. It'd be great if we could all look at suggestions in the most positive reasonable light, I think.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Sunsette said:

The funny thing is that I don't remotely want a Chaos powerset for myself. It's not a kind of magic that I've ever been interested in; even when I play D&D, I tend to avoid that kind of wizard. And I don't like magical characters in comic books, with a handful of exceptions.

 

But I believe it's a reasonable desire and it's not something the game illustrates very well despite being a type of power that shows up in comics fairly often. It'd be great if we could all look at suggestions in the most positive reasonable light, I think.

If it was instead called Primal Forces, would that work better for you?