kheldians My hopes for the Kheldian Rework - PeaceBringer

[Laucianna]

1 hour ago, Glacier Peak said:

Can someone tell me why they think there is anything that needs changed on Kheldians? 

 

They're perfectly balanced in my opinion, that's why I'm a big fan of them. 

Without changeling binds our damage is far below what it should be, with changeling binds I think we are in the ballpark of where we should be on damage and tankiness. And the devs have stated they want to remove changeling binds but have kept them in until Kheldians can get a rework that will make them better then dead weight ❤️

So this post is sort of a wishlist from myself of what I would like to come in the rework as I feel like I can give a solid opinion for PeaceBringers, the devs may look at it and take one or two things or nothing at all but wanted to get it out there 🙂 

[Glacier Peak]

10 minutes ago, Laucianna said:

Without changeling binds our damage is far below what it should be

Where is damage currently at and where should it be? The base modifiers tell part of the story, but damage alone isn't all there is. The status effects and debuffs also add to the overall survivability of the Kheldian - just as playing with teammates does too. This [being teaming] increases the damage output of a Kheldian to a greater degree than any other Archetype. 

 

By adding higher damage base modifiers or resistance - if I'm reading your suggestions right - what does this accomplish? What are the trade offs willing to be made? 

Edited April 4 by Glacier Peak
[added for clarity]

[Laucianna]

17 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Where is damage currently at and where should it be? The base modifiers tell part of the story, but damage alone isn't all there is. The status effects and debuffs also add to the overall survivability of the Kheldian - just as playing with teammates does too. This [being teaming] increases the damage output of a Kheldian to a greater degree than any other Archetype. 

 

By adding higher damage base modifiers or resistance - if I'm reading your suggestions right - what does this accomplish? What are the trade offs willing to be made? 

Our damage is 100% upsetting without changeling and yes we have -def debuffs on all our attacks but so does pretty much every other powerset have a bonus thing on attacks (Radiation is also -def, sonic is -res (Much better), fire adds a dot etc) And being in a team really doesn't boost our damage greater then anyone, if anything we suffer as a lot of other damage ATs have higher damage cap hence why I suggested an upgrade to the cap 🙂

Allowing us to do good dps without relying on changelings is what I suggest for damage and the trade off is the changeling binds ❤️ The devs know we need a buff otherwise they wouldn't of given us back the changeling binds when they took them away by mistake in the past.

[Glacier Peak]

2 hours ago, Laucianna said:

And being in a team really doesn't boost our damage greater then anyone, if anything we suffer as a lot of other damage ATs have higher damage cap hence why I suggested an upgrade to the cap

I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion. The in-game inherent description describes the benefit of teaming. No other Archetype inherent benefits from teaming, except for Defenders. 

 

Quote

 

 Cosmic Balance

Kheldians naturally thrive off the energy and essence of their teammates. Peacebringers' metamorphic nature allows them to bring balance to their team. Your Damage will increase for each nearby Tanker, Mastermind, Corruptor or Defender teammate. Your Damage Resistance will increase for each nearby Scrapper, Sentinel, Brute, Stalker or Blaster teammate. Each nearby Controller or Dominator teammate will grant you limited Protection from Control effects. Finally, each nearby Peacebringer, Warshade, or teamed Arachnos Soldier or Widow grants you some resistance to attack time slow effects. You cannot put Enhancements in this power.

 

 Dark Sustenance
Kheldians naturally thrive off the energy and essence of their teammates. Warshades' absorbing nature allows them to draw on the power of their teammates' power to increase their own. Your Damage Resistance will increase for each nearby Tanker, Mastermind, Corruptor or Defender teammate. Your Damage will increase for each nearby Scrapper, Sentinel, Stalker, Brute or Blaster teammate. Each nearby Controller or Dominator teammate will grant you limited Protection from Control effects. Finally, each nearby Peacebringer, Warshade, or teamed Arachnos Soldier or Widow grants you some resistance to attack time slow effects. You cannot put Enhancements in this power.

 

 

Teaming with a Corruptor, Defender, Mastermind, or Tanker provides a +20% Damage boost (stacks with existing effects) to all attacks. Their damage scales are already equal, or in some cases higher than other damage-oriented Archetypes also.

 

Archetype	Melee Damage Scale	Ranged Damage Scale
Kheldian	0.850 (1.000 in Dwarf)	0.800 (1.200 in Nova)
Blaster	1.000	1.125
Scrapper	1.125	0.500
Sentinel	1.100	1.100
Arachnos Widow	1.000	1.000
Arachnos Solider	1.000	1.000
Dominator	1.050	0.950

 

They tie for fifth out of 15 Archetypes for best in Melee Damage Scale while in Dwarf form, behind Scrapper (1st), Dominator (2nd), Sentinel (3rd), and Dominators (4th) - tied with Blasters and Stalkers. While in Dwarf form they have higher max hp, damage resistance, and defense than all other Archetypes except Tankers, Scrappers, Stalkers, and Brutes (tied with Arachnos Widow & Solider on damage resist and defense).

 

What's more, while in Nova form the ranged damage scale is also the highest in the game (in addition to increased accuracy, endurance recovery, and two attacks with farther range than a Blaster standard range (100ft vs. 80ft)). As you know, you can activate Light Form then switch to Nova for a rather tanky squid also!

 

They hit 400% maximum damage total, however - this is equal to all other Archetypes besides Blasters, Corruptors, Scrappers, Brutes, Sentinels, Stalkers, and Tankers who have 500% (or 700% in the case of the Brute). That's where some direct comparisons become somewhat muddy (Aim+Build Up for Blasters not up all the time, Fury needs constant maintenance, etc. Basically everyone would need to chew Reds to get to their cap or have teammates provide +damage buffs). 

 

Also take in to account the aforementioned max HP I referenced above. This makes more of an impact when coupled with Dwarf or Nova form, however, in Human form it also acts as a secondary heal.

 

Archetype	Base HP	Max HP Cap
Blaster	1204.8	1847.3
Controller	1017.4	1606.4
Defender	1017.4	1606.4
Scrapper	1338.6	2409.5
Tanker	1874.1	3534
Peacebringer	1070.9	2409.5
Warshade	1070.9	2409.5
Sentinel	1204.8	2088.3
Brute	1499.3	3212.7
Stalker	1204.8	2088.3
Mastermind	803.2	1606.4
Dominator	1017.4	1606.4
Corruptor	1070.9	1606.4
Arachnos Widow	1070.9	2409.5
Arachnos Solider	1070.9	2409.5

 

2 hours ago, Laucianna said:

Our damage is 100% upsetting without changeling

 

Based on these data points, what does "upsetting" mean in this context? And how would you balance increasing the damage to compensate?

 

My point is that there has to be trade-offs to balance your increase in one thing with a decrease in another. Kheldians are not meant to be the best at everything or even at one thing - they are a balanced Archetype that can do everything well (breadth vs. depth as it were).

Edited April 5 by Glacier Peak
table formatting

[Indystruck]

5 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

Can someone tell me why they think there is anything that needs changed on Kheldians? 

 

They're perfectly balanced in my opinion, that's why I'm a big fan of them. 

 

Ignoring the usual mechanics of the game and playing on a level more demanding than anything else in the game is required for Kheldian DPS to match a scrapper that is decently played.

 

If they have to lose Glowing Touch for a DPS bump, so be it.

[Glacier Peak]

48 minutes ago, Indystruck said:

Ignoring the usual mechanics of the game and playing on a level more demanding than anything else in the game is required for Kheldian DPS to match a scrapper that is decently played.

 

If they have to lose Glowing Touch for a DPS bump, so be it.

Why do you think they should match a Scrapper in DPS?

[Laucianna]

5 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion. The in-game inherent description describes the benefit of teaming. No other Archetype inherent benefits from teaming, except for Defenders. 

 

Because our damage cap is so low that the boost from the team is pointless when doing content at end game, and the resist bonus is only useful for Psi damage since we have light form to fulfil said resist, compare it to almost every other inherent that doesn't stop working even if you are buffed to cap on everything.
 

 

5 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

They tie for fifth out of 15 Archetypes for best in Melee Damage Scale while in Dwarf form, behind Scrapper (1st), Dominator (2nd), Sentinel (3rd), and Dominators (4th) - tied with Blasters and Stalkers. While in Dwarf form they have higher max hp, damage resistance, and defense than all other Archetypes except Tankers, Scrappers, Stalkers, and Brutes (tied with Arachnos Widow & Solider on damage resist and defense).

 

The scales are great it's the lack of high damage powers we suffer from due to a mix of super slow animations like incandescent strike or the fact they have super low recharge (meaning low base damage), to the point most high end builds will have to pick up Cross Punch to fill in for some of that damage.

 

 

5 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

What's more, while in Nova form the ranged damage scale is also the highest in the game (in addition to increased accuracy, endurance recovery, and two attacks with farther range than a Blaster standard range (100ft vs. 80ft)). As you know, you can activate Light Form then switch to Nova for a rather tanky squid also!

 

Same issue as the two points above, that +45% damage is pointless at high level due to us having a low cap and again with actual damage of the attacks, if we just went off the damage scaling it would mean Squids are the highest ranged damage dealers in game which we all know is far from the truth 😄
 

 

5 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

They hit 400% maximum damage total, however - this is equal to all other Archetypes besides Blasters, Corruptors, Scrappers, Brutes, Sentinels, Stalkers, and Tankers who have 500% (or 700% in the case of the Brute). That's where some direct comparisons become somewhat muddy (Aim+Build Up for Blasters not up all the time, Fury needs constant maintenance, etc. Basically everyone would need to chew Reds to get to their cap or have teammates provide +damage buffs). 

 

So we are not equal to other damage dealers in our cap and in end game content it is capped instantly from barely any buffing due to it.

 

5 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

Based on these data points, what does "upsetting" mean in this context? And how would you balance increasing the damage to compensate?

 

The data points are just the base surface you are looking at, not the actual damage numbers of attacks. For actual numbers:

Base Dominator melee DPS rotation: 68.93
Base PeaceBringer melee DPS rotation: 51.69

Base Sentinel ranged DPS rotation: 72.94
Base PeaceBringer ranged DPS rotation: 40.25

Our damage should be equal to both of those ATs in that regard going by the rating Homecoming suggests to players but we fall massively short in both.

 

 

5 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

My point is that there has to be trade-offs to balance your increase in one thing with a decrease in another. Kheldians are not meant to be the best at everything or even at one thing - they are a balanced Archetype that can do everything well (breadth vs. depth as it were).

The trade off is losing changeling which is currently something that allows us to do good damage (Not the best) and have some extra tankiness due to procs in the forms. At the moment without changeling as much as I love them, Kheldians are bottom of the barrel to the point play a scrapper or even a sentinel to do a ton better then them.

[Indystruck]

9 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

Why do you think they should match a Scrapper in DPS?

 

They should probably be good at *something.*

 

e: Nevermind, @Greycat, you right, they shouldn't be! My fault.

Edited April 5 by Indystruck

[Wavicle]

Dominators don't have armor.

 

Sentinels don't do anything besides damage.

Kheldians are armored and have AoE Taunts while also having ranged abilities. Why should they do as much damage as ATs with fewer options?

[Shin Magmus]

Khelds have hilariously undertuned individual powers, mostly attacks, and currently they require more slots (to spread across all the extra powers they get) but they don't get that resource, so they are spread thin and can't properly enhance and use all of their powers.  This statement is accurate in direct comparison to other ATs.  Individually, a few PB/WS powers are really good (Inner Light, Light Form, Stygian Circle, etc) but they are attached to a deeply flawed AT, that deals miserably lower damage relative to most of the competition: because of those undertuned attacks.

 

 

Edited April 5 by GM_GooglyMoogly
ad hominem removed

[Laucianna]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

Dominators don't have armor.

 

Sentinels don't do anything besides damage.

Kheldians are armored and have AoE Taunts while also having ranged abilities. Why should they do as much damage as ATs with fewer options?

 

Dominator have control and Sentinels are tanky. They should do as much damage as Homecoming has listed them as, this isn't me saying they should be on par with them because of my own views, this is homecoming rating them the same damage despite Kheldians being far lower.

[Wavicle]

Just now, Laucianna said:

 

Dominator have control and Sentinels are tanky. They should do as much damage as Homecoming has listed them as, this isn't me saying they should be on par with them because of my own views, this is homecoming rating them the same damage despite Kheldians being far lower.

Dominators have barely any AoE, and Sentinels have no taunts, having armor is not something you do for the team. Damage, control, buff/debuff, and taunt are.

 

And the numbers in the character creation screen are a loose guide, not an exacting ratings system.

[Videra]

9 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

Why do you think they should match a Scrapper in DPS?

 

"I have perma dull pain and light form. Feels strong to me."
 

 Kheldians are cripplingly under-performing in terms of damage - which is all they can do to help a team, realistically. There is nothing balanced about Kheldians on any level. From their weak personal attacks that haven't been touched since they were created, to their utter lack of real utility and their microscopic damage cap.

Why should a Peacebringer, played optimally at more than double the game's normal APM, and in the same ideal conditions do less single target damage than an Illusion/Cold Controller that is just as immortal as it is - possibly more so - and has group utilities like HEAT LOSS AND BENUMB? AND PHANTOM ARMY, WHICH TAUNTS AND DOES NOT DIE.

Don't pretend this game is balanced. Fix Bio/Martial and Rad/SS proc tankers so that they aren't sturdy DPS characters, remove Scrapper taunt auras, make it so that Defenders have lower damage scalars and don't benefit from procs. Oh, and make the damage from phantom army temporary, then tell me that there's logical, thought out balancing.

There isn't, there will not be, PB and WS are garbage and no amount of 'They have too much durability!!! It would be unbalanced!!!' is a good argument when the examples I just used exist.

Edit: ACTUALLY, LET ME DOUBLE DOWN.

Durability in this era is a scam when it comes to balancing. Peacebringers having 1.9k HP and 85% Res (Except to Psi) means nothing. We live in an era of barrier cycling in hardmode and eating orange/purple candy in normal gameplay which is cheap enough to be sustainable. Blasters have infinite endurance as part of their build, and yet, a fire/fire blaster simply has the entire game handed to them on a thoughtless platter.

Inspirations and Incarnates are both core gameplay mechanics - they are intended to be used. And you are capable of using them both to make your character just as tough as a min-maxed Peacebringer (who has to double the game's APM to do real people damage) while outperforming them in every other metric.

FIN.

Edited April 5 by GM_GooglyMoogly
ad hominem removed

[Laucianna]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

Dominators have barely any AoE, and Sentinels have no taunts, having armor is not something you do for the team. Damage, control, buff/debuff, and taunt are.

 

And the numbers in the character creation screen are a loose guide, not an exacting ratings system.

 

A tanker can out perform us in all of that I believe. The character creator screen is a loose guide yes, but when we are doing almost half the damage of someone in the same ranking whilst doing more work, you have to admit there's an issue right?

[Indystruck]

3 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Sentinels don't do anything besides damage.

Kheldians are armored and have AoE Taunts while also having ranged abilities. Why should they do as much damage as ATs with fewer options?

 

Interesting that you'd pick Sentinels!

 

Sentinels, of course, have a damage based primary, a armor based secondary, and epic pools all themed toward support, a jack of all trades, if you will.

 

They were also medicore at all of it, and got a numbers pass and rework to their inherent to make them better! Good pick for an example, honestly.

[ScarySai]

9 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

Why do you think they should match a Scrapper in DPS?

 

Why do you think they shouldn't? Where would you put them? 

 

Khelds need a buff, so do others, but we've been in line longer. Just saying 'nuh-uh' and listing off existing caps and scales is about as worthless of an argument as you can make.

 

Scales don't matter if the powers they modify are undertuned.

Edited April 5 by GM_GooglyMoogly
ad hominem removed

[Glacier Peak]

@Laucianna Endgame content alone is not a fair metric to justify changing how an entire Archetype works. Making a change like what you've suggested requires balance in another area of the Archetype - fixing an exploit is not the same thing as balancing the trade-off. Where would you suggest this happen?

[Glacier Peak]

2 hours ago, ScarySai said:

Why do you think they shouldn't? Where would you put them? 

 

Khelds need a buff, so do others, but we've been in line longer. Just saying 'nuh-uh' and listing off existing caps and scales is about as worthless of an argument as you can make.

 

Scales don't matter if the powers they modify are undertuned.

They fufill their roles perfectly and meet my every expectation for the Archetype. I can play them as really good at everything and enjoy the content of the game without feeling like I'm missing anything.

 

At least @Laucianna listed DPS from two other Archetypes to provide context. Every other poster literally replied that I have no idea what I'm talking about. That's incredibly disappointing and inappropriate. Attack my argument, but don't attack me. List actual data so we can have a actual discussion instead of this turning to name calling. 

Edited April 5 by GM_GooglyMoogly
Edit to match above

[Glacier Peak]

4 hours ago, Indystruck said:

They should probably be good at *something.*

They are good at being able to do everything well, but not the best. They can be built to play close to the best at one thing, but not be equal to or better than. They are the game's equivalent of a multi-tool. That's a super useful Archetype to have and why I enjoy playing it. 

[Laucianna]

32 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

@Laucianna Endgame content alone is not a fair metric to justify changing how an entire Archetype works. Making a change like what you've suggested requires balance in another area of the Archetype - fixing an exploit is not the same thing as balancing the trade-off. Where would you suggest this happen?

 

What I'm suggesting isn't changing the how the AT works though, it changes how we will perform at level 50 mostly. The difference I think we have is you believe they are balanced right now, which is fine it's your opinion, but the majority of Kheldian players I know that also know the AT believe they are not and have shown multiple times how they are not ❤️ When I get home from work I will try to get more data to hopefully help convince you 🙂

 

Also FYI: to everyone please don't make this toxic and have the GMs lock it, we all lose then ❤️

 

[Glacier Peak]

Just now, Laucianna said:

What I'm suggesting isn't changing the how the AT works though, it changes how we will perform at level 50 mostly. The difference I think we have is you believe they are balanced right now, which is fine it's your opinion, but the majority of Kheldian players I know that also know the AT believe they are not and have shown multiple times how they are not ❤️ When I get home from work I will try to get more data to hopefully help convince you 🙂

 

Also FYI: to everyone please don't make this toxic and have the GMs lock it, we all lose then ❤️

 

@Laucianna I appreciate this discussion and I appreciate you making a suggestion about how to improve an Archetype we all enjoy. I am not against your suggestion - I am only asking that whatever design changes occur are based on empirical data and not an opinion. I think it's great everyone has an opinion, nothing wrong with that. Saying it is fine and providing the design metrics for the Archetype is how I shared my belief that Kheldian's are in a good place. I could also use damage per second or -defense debuffs or endurance costs or activation times - all these things are finite data points that don't rely on opinions. When we use these in our discussions when advocating for changing an Archetype, it removes the individual subjectivity. 

 

Again, I am not against your suggestion. I just want to ground my discussion in data points instead of subjective opinion.

 

Totally agree with your last point. 

[Doomrider]

16 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

Can someone tell me why they think there is anything that needs changed on Kheldians? 

 

They're perfectly balanced in my opinion, that's why I'm a big fan of them. 

In what contexts do you think they're perfectly balanced? 
I want to know from the side that thinks they don't need to be adjusted, just why and under what circumstances do you think they need no further adjustments.
 

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

Please argue the merits of the proposal, not the merits of other players.

[General Idiot]

Personally, the one and only thing I want out of a Kheldian rework is still giving them mez protection in human form. Every argument I've ever heard against it is invalidated by the fact that the Arachnos epic ATs exist - both of them have the same mix of ranged and melee attacks along with similar survivability and much better team support. Mechanically they do everything a Kheldian can but better, with the sole exception of tanking. Though honestly in all my years playing this game from back on live to here and now, I don't know if I've ever once seen a Kheldian actually tank.

 

That said, I'm not asking for much. The same mag 4 protection soldiers get in their level 1 passives. Argument could be made for mag 6, that being what soldiers have if they take both of said passives. Not enough to make you immune to mez forever, just enough so one random minion tagging you with a single power doesn't lock you into Dwarf for the rest of the fight.

[ScarySai]

@General Idiot Peacebringers have this, but it's weak and requires light form. Mez protection on one of the armor powers, at least, is definitely on most kheld's lists.

Edited April 5 by ScarySai