Kheldian Inherent Revamp

[Whitest Light]

Lucianna posted in the suggestion forum some suggestions for a Kheldian revamp but, unfortunately it got locked after things got a little chippy. 

 

Since that will probably be lost to time, I thought I'd post a suggestion I made there for altering the Kheldian Inherent (slightly modified since I've given it more thought).

 

Background:

 

Cosmic Balance/Dark Sustenance are inherents from all the way back of I3 when Kheldians were introduced. Back then, Kheldians were Post-50 ATs aimed at folks who had a solid understanding of the game and wanted a little more challenge. Likewise, Kheldians were supposed to be team-oriented and work best while on a team. As such, the inherent gives some fairly significant boosts to damage, resistance, mez protection, and debuff resistance if you're part of a full (and varied) team. There's nothing wrong with that in and of itself but these inherents have gone untouched after major changes of the game have occurred . A well-built PB or WS can self-cap resists and has mez protection, meaning teaming with half of the ATs available has no real benefit. In short, the inherents are antiquated: made for a age long-past and a meta that no longer exists. They need a refresh.

 

Suggestion:

 

PBs are jack-of-all-trades and WS's are chaotic clouds of death but both have at their disposal the ability to become mini-Blasters or mini-Tanks with the press of a button. Human-only playstyles do exist for those that don't want to engage in the frenetic back-and-forth of Bi-Form or Tri-Form but on the whole, I think shapeshifting is what sets Kheldians apart from all other ATs.

 

The inherent should lean into that. Like... hard. My proposal is to revamp the inherent into a mechanic with two primary design goals:

 

1.) Incentivize shapeshifting as the hallmark of the AT. The more you do it, the more powerful you become.

2.) Incentivize playing as part of a team. Kheldians should thrive when teamed up.

 

1.) Kheldian Shift

 

I've dubbed this "Kheldian Shift" but the name is can be anything. This is where Kheldians could really shine as shapeshifters. Switching forms and attacking causes a Kheldian to gain Shift utilizing a bar like Fury. Attacks immediately following a form switch generate Shift as function of the base endurance costs of attacks. 1 Endurance spent equals 1 Shift generated with stronger attacks naturally generating more. However, Shift generation from attacks drop in effectiveness the longer you stay in one form: -10%/sec, all the way to 0 after 10 seconds That is to say, a Radiant Strike 3 seconds after coming off of Nova didn't generate 10 Shift, it only generated 7. Also note that the overall Shift bar decays rapidly at 10%/sec. (If this seems punishing, it is! But read on...!)  

 

As Shift builds, the Kheldian enjoys improved attributes (depending on what form they're in) at a 1:1 ratio of percentage. That is, at 25% Shift, you'll get 25% improvement in a given attribute. See below.

 

• In Human Form, they gain +Recharge and Recovery. Human Form powers have the least amount of damage but at high Shift levels, they can use them more often and without worrying too much about Endurance. Being in Human Form also "fuels" the Recharge of long click powers like Light Form and Eclipse. I would like to think of Human Form as the foundation, and the most versatile, but definitely the weakest in combat. 
• In Nova Form, they gain +Damage and Accuracy. This is essentially doubling-down on what Nova already provides. With high Shift levels and good slotting, Nova form should easily double the damage of equivalent Human Form powers. However, staying in Nova Form for too long will cause Shift levels to drop so you can't deal high damage forever. Likewise, Nova doesn't have access to heals or other click powers.
• in Dwarf Form, they gain +Regeneration and Damage, albeit at a 2:1 for Regen and 1:1/2 for Damage. That is to say, at 100% Shift, Dwarf has +200% Regeneration and +50% Damage. Dwarf in Melee hits harder than Human and due to Regeneration, has more lasting power than Human Form even with Light Form/Eclipse. However, it is melee only and has a limited attack chain.  

 

2.) Team Dynamics

 

The above appears to make Kheldians able to buff themselves at-will so who needs a team? This is where the second design goal comes in and where the difference between PBs and WSs becomes more apparent. Gone are the AT-specific buffs of Cosmic Balance/Dark Sustenance and instead it's simplified to just the total number of teammates. For every additional teammate:

 

• Peacebringer Shift decay is reduced by 10% (minimum 3%/sec)
• Warshade Shift generation is increased by 10% (maxed +70%)
• Maximum Shift is increased by 5% (maxed at 135%)

 

So on a team, PBs gain Shift normally but decay at a much slower rate. Warshades are on the opposite end, rapidly gaining Shift but decaying at normal speed. Two different approaches but roughly the same outcome while in battle. PBs are better at sustaining high Shift but Warshades are better at getting it high to begin with. 

 

Playing solo, a Kheldian would have to frantically switch forms every few attacks to to keep the bar topped off but as a part of a team, you'll have a significantly easier time keeping Shift going. Not only that, but your maximum is higher even if you have a perfect build. Teaming up is still the "intended" way to play Kheldians.

 

...but wait, there's more!

 

If you go above 100% Shift, the portion over 100% spills over to your teammates. They get 50% of the Shift bonuses from any "overflow", so on a full team, you could theoretically buff all of them +17.5% Damage, Accuracy, Recharge, Recovery, etc. depending on what form you're in. Alas, Shift overflow only stacks one additional time from multiple Kheldians (sorry all-Kheld teams). Just by the nature of how Shift works for PBs vs. WSs, PBs will be the "steadier" of the two for team buffs but Warshades will bury the needle once they get going. I think that's about par for the course, anyway.

 

However, this makes teaming with a Kheldian a much more positive experience. They're naturally giving off a lot of useful buffs just by being themselves! 

 

Summary:

 

The more you switch, attack and switch, the more Shift you build. Kheldians would be known for getting stronger as they fight while also helping nearby teammates. +Recharge in the inherent also mitigates the necessity for high global recharge (which lowers build variety). With Shift in place, the need for such high global recharge is diminished and less-than-perfect slotting can still achieve high-end survivability. The extra damage in Nova/Dwarf also makes them more attractive overall.

 

If this all this seems like we're going into OP territory, don't forget that Kheldians are having to team up or perform a whirling dervish in order get to high Shift levels (especially solo). If they're slightly over-tuned, it's because they have to work for it. It's my hope something like this would make playing a Kheldian a unique but fun experience but also have something to show for all the work you do.

 

Let me know what you think and any suggestions!

Edited April 6 by Whitest Light

[tidge]

I'm not a fan of the Fury bar, and the Domination bar is best ignored via perma-Domination. I tolerate the Sentinel's Opportunity bar, but even that was revamped. Let's not add a similar mechanic to Kheldians.

[Psiphon]

As someone that has tried and failed to level Kheldians I'd like some simple changes. 

KB changed to KD in most powers.

A small amount of Mez protection in human form. 

Try to untie them from having to team by having the buff relate to the enemy faced and not the team mates played with.

[Nutation]

Imaginative. The team buff might be hard to code. This should not be implemented until the changeling maneuver is removed.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

The OP's suggestions are inventive and a good starting point for re-thinking the kheldian inherents. 

As some other thoughts, since the forms can all be activated through the same body there's a reasonable case to be made for cross-form benefits and synergies. For example, there could reasonably be limited buffs that accrue to human and nova form from merely having taken dwarf form, and other buffs gained by spending a fair amount of time in dwarf form and by using dwarf form abilities. The same could be true for nova form. Some really helpful and cool stuff can happen by allowing more synergies across forms than now exist. 

A handful of possible examples of always-on passive benefits from having more than just human form for a kheld ...

- After choosing nova form gain a small bonus to recovery and ranged damage for other forms. Can fly for up to 30 seconds before an unmodifiable 4 minute cooldown happens when not in nova form. 

- After choosing dwarf form gain a small amount of unenhanceable passive resistances (say, 3.75% or 5% to all but psionic damage) in non-dwarf forms. Also, after choosing dwarf form a kheldian can teleport 3 times before a 90 second cooldown starts for that skill when not in dwarf form. Also, dwarf mez protection can be applied to non-dwarf forms, but perhaps with somewhat smaller values and in the form of a toggle that costs endurance when not in dwarf form. 

... there are undoubtedly other creative ideas that could be explored. There are actually a lot of things that could reasonably be introduced. Human form benefits could also be made applicable to other forms. 

 

On a related note, perhaps time spent in a form and actually using the form to do things both contribute to a mechanic called "acclimation", "adaptation", or "attunement", rather than fury or "kheldian shift." Thus, as time in a form increases and as more things are done in that form the kheldian becomes more "attuned" to that form and there are buffs that end up being applied because of that. A decay mechanic could also reasonably be framed around the length of time not spent in a given form. 

The team buffs would make khelds more like VEATS, except it seems that khelds wouldn't need to devote power picks and slots to those buffs. If team buffs were to be added to khelds then their values should perhaps be carefully weighed in light of how much investment others need to make to bring similar benefits to a team. 

Edit: Almost forgot to mention that khelds are mostly resistance-based for their defenses. And yet, they are at a substantial disadvantage given how the game has evolved after their introduction early in the game's history compared to a number of other, later-developed resistance-based power sets because resistances to the wide variety of debuffs mobs can now inflict are typically incorporated to some degree for later-developed resistance-based armor sets. Not khelds, though, and they pay the price for that against a fair variety of different enemy factions. The ability to withstand enemy debuffs will hopefully get some attention as part of any kheldian review. Dwarf form would probably get the highest amount of debuff resistances. Nova form could reasonably be given some recovery debuff resistance, which could perhaps be additive with any dwarf recovery debuff resistances. In the end, hopefully some passive debuff resistances and/or "attunement" debuff resistances will also be available to khelds that take dwarf form, as part of a reconfigured kheldian inherent. 
 

Edited April 7 by EnjoyTheJourney

[Laucianna]

I do love the idea of building Shift but I feel like it might be too complicated to implement in it's current form. To me it would be simpler to do the following:

PeaceBringers: Generates 15 "Shift" each time they shift forms to a maximum of 75 total "Shift". For each point of "Shift" you gain 1% End Reduction and Recharge Reduction to a maximum of 75%

WarShades: Generates 10 "Shift" each time they shift forms to a maximum of 125 total "Shift". For each point of "Shift" you gain 1% Damage and Accuracy to a maximum of 125%

Also for the decay I feel it should be the other way around ❤️ WarShades atm have that drive of constantly needing combat so having their shift slowly build up will make them want to crave battle more to keep it capped since it takes a while to build up. But PeaceBringers can have a break if they want because it builds up rather quickly, so each AT would lose "Shift" at 1 point per second but the forms generate a different amount of shift.

[tidge]

I think the VEAT inherents are worse than the HEAT inherents, but it is hard to see the HEAT inherent working well until the Kheldian is on a PUG... and the PUG gets in over its head, as often a well-build Kheldian can go to town against large, nasty spawns.

 

I am of the opinions that the Kheldians should get some advantages in any form that carries over from other chosen forms... this is sort of what the ATO piece does, so I'm thinking of something like the compliment of having the T1/T2 blasts available in Nova/Dwarf form... so that one of the "signature" powers from Nova/Dwarf was available in Human form. This would allow Human forms to have access to more powers, which could preserve slots. I'm not really liking this idea, since Kheldians are a nice build-puzzle. Frankly I'd be satisfied if the "toggle slotting" of Nova/Dwarf carried over to each form for ToHit Buffs and Resistance (even if not toggled on)... that is not to say that a Nova would get full Dwarf resistance, just that any resistance enhancement slotting would be applied to both human and nova forms base resistances.

 

I am 100% fine with Knockback in the ranged attacks. KB is one of those mechanics that can frustrate some players, but IMO

• It's a tool that players need to learn to use (it is a "soft control")
• It allows for more slotting options
• Having it teaches players more awareness of the game's enemies and environment
• It is not a "grief" effect
• If you personally don't like it, it can be mitigated with a couple of easily available enhancement pieces
• for teammates who don't like it: many Immobilize powers eliminate/restrict knockback

I dislike the general lack of mezz resistance, but that is a feature of the game. Kheldians have all the same tricks available to other ATs, plus Dwarf form.

[Thraxen]

Switching back all the time would be just a lot of loud sounds and flashes all the time. Sounds horrible and would be pain to play too I’d bet. 
 

In would just change the existing buffs to some that are more useful. Especially the buff from other khelds. 

[FlammeFatale]

6 hours ago, Thraxen said:

Switching back all the time would be just a lot of loud sounds and flashes all the time. Sounds horrible and would be pain to play too I’d bet. 

 

I agree 100%. In addition to the annoying graphic effects:

 

- it would corner kheldians into a non-stop switching style. Less build diversity. Less playstyle diversity within a build... boring.

- it would be detrimental to the human-only builds and also the bi-form ones.

- it would also be very difficult to balance because too much form switching reduces DPS without changeling, which is supposed to go when AT improvement takes place.

 

I am very much in favor of an inherent revamp. Present inherent is useless when soloing. If anything, I think the only thing kheldians need is a better inherent. Perhaps also epic/ancillary powers. They are the only AT without those. Epic/ancillary powers would be very interesting inasmuch as they would allow more types of builds.

 

Any inherent change or epic addition should address the AT weaknesses. In my opinion, the main AT weaknesses are:

 

- poor mezz protection.

- lower performance against 1 or 2 mobs, in the case of warshades.

 

 

 

[Laucianna]

12 hours ago, FlammeFatale said:

 

I agree 100%. In addition to the annoying graphic effects:

 

- it would corner kheldians into a non-stop switching style. Less build diversity. Less playstyle diversity within a build... boring.

- it would be detrimental to the human-only builds and also the bi-form ones.

- it would also be very difficult to balance because too much form switching reduces DPS without changeling, which is supposed to go when AT improvement takes place.

 

I am very much in favor of an inherent revamp. Present inherent is useless when soloing. If anything, I think the only thing kheldians need is a better inherent. Perhaps also epic/ancillary powers. They are the only AT without those. Epic/ancillary powers would be very interesting inasmuch as they would allow more types of builds.

 

Any inherent change or epic addition should address the AT weaknesses. In my opinion, the main AT weaknesses are:

 

- poor mezz protection.

- lower performance against 1 or 2 mobs, in the case of warshades.

 

 

 

I am still strongly against any Kheldian rework having a focus on human only being just as good as tri form, the forms are what make us unique hence why the inherent should focus on that section. And as much as I love Kheldians, without the changeling binds we are wet noodles in end game content sadly with such weak DPS, in the inital rework post I put the number differences of DPS and it's painful to see, we need a proper rework that increases our DPS and the usefulness of a lot of our features, inherent most of all 🙂

I would argue the weaknesses for both Kheldians is:
 

 - Very low DPS compared to other ATs with similar rating
 - Pointless inherent that doesn't work solo, and is useless in end game content
 - Weak/No Mez protection

 

The WarShade case is what the AT is about so I wouldn't class it as a weakness, that is it's unique selling point and it pays off with just 4-5 mobs around you ❤️ 

[FlammeFatale]

1 hour ago, Laucianna said:

I am still strongly against any Kheldian rework having a focus on human only being just as good as tri form,

 

This is not what I wrote. I wrote that the proposed change to the inherent would be detrimental to human only players. A human only would lose the buffs in team content and gain nothing. This is called a nerf.

Human only are already weaker than bi-forms and tri-forms. No need to nerf the former while boosting the later. I prefer to improve all types of builds equally.

[Laucianna]

28 minutes ago, FlammeFatale said:

 

This is not what I wrote. I wrote that the proposed change to the inherent would be detrimental to human only players. A human only would lose the buffs in team content and gain nothing. This is called a nerf.

Human only are already weaker than bi-forms and tri-forms. No need to nerf the former while boosting the later. I prefer to improve all types of builds equally.

True yeah, my bad on saying the focus on Human only, what I meant was basically any thought towards human only. Human only is a niche that ignores the main mechanic of the AT similar to a petless MM, and the MM inherent focuses on what makes that AT unique so it would make sense for ours to do the same ❤️ I get a few people play human only for a number of reasons hence why when I made my suggestions list there was a "minimal fx" option for forms so you could still be 90% human even in forms 🙂 

[tidge]

31 minutes ago, FlammeFatale said:

Human only are already weaker than bi-forms and tri-forms. No need to nerf the former while boosting the later. I prefer to improve all types of builds equally.

 

I agree with @Laucianna...

 

2 hours ago, Laucianna said:

I am still strongly against any Kheldian rework having a focus on human only being just as good as tri form, the forms are what make us unique hence why the inherent should focus on that section.

 

It would feel wrong to me to not lean into the design of multiple forms for Kheldians when considering any future rework. I wouldn't want to see Kheldians shifted towards Sentinel territory (i.e. Blasters with Armor & Mezz protection) or whatever.

 

The oddest thing about the inherent boosts (from my PoV) is that it made the most sense (again, to me) when Cysts were likely to show up in team content... but now that these don't spawn in typical "leveling" content, it is quite rare to notice when a Kheldian is benefiting from Cosmic balance orDark Sustenance. The content where I notice these doing something are on PUGs for thinks like the Penelope Yin TF or the Caverns of Transcendence trial... mid-to-low-ish level content that can be prone to "team wipes".

 

One thing I (points to self) like about Kheldians is that (modulo slotting) they can have all their (unique to AT) power picks by level 32 without having to rely on Epic/Power pool choices to flush them out. I can understand how this can be seen as a defect for players focused on high-level content. Maybe there could be something like a couple of Epic level pools available only to Kheldians that could satisfy certain player cravings? I'm thinking of a couple of typical 5-power sets that might allow Kheldian players to lean a little harder into a player's preferred play style without changing the At for everybody.

[FlammeFatale]

edit: I am answering to Laucianna, not to the message that was posted while I was typing.

 

Okay, but this is still advocating for a change in the inherent which favors one specific build and one specific playstyle: a tri-form constantly switching, like some do today to abuse procs in dwarf and nova.

 

This is a valid and respectable playstyle, but limited to a few number of players, generally min/maxers. I think that the vast majority of kheldians in the game, not on the forums, play differently. They will change forms but infrequently, only to adapt to the specific combat situation or team needs.

 

What I would prefer is a change benefiting equally to all players, playstyles and types of builds. We agree that kheldians mezz mitigation should be improved. 

I will give an example that would address this issue while benefiting all players. It would also make kheldians add value to teams, which they do not today.

 

Example: the inherent gives mezz protection which scales based on the number of players in the team.

 

- 1 player (solo): +7 prot to the kheldian, +0 to the team (obviously).

- 2 players: +6 prot to the kheldian, +1 to each teammate.

.

.

.

- 8 players: +0 to the kheldian, +7 to each teammate.

 

This also has the merit of being simple to understand and implement.

 

Edited April 10 by FlammeFatale

[Laucianna]

24 minutes ago, FlammeFatale said:

edit: I am answering to Laucianna, not to the message that was posted while I was typing.

 

Okay, but this is still advocating for a change in the inherent which favors one specific build and one specific playstyle: a tri-form constantly switching, like some do today to abuse procs in dwarf and nova.

 

This is a valid and respectable playstyle, but limited to a few number of players, generally min/maxers. I think that the vast majority of kheldians in the game, not on the forums, play differently. They will change forms but infrequently, only to adapt to the specific combat situation or team needs.

 

What I would prefer is a change benefiting equally to all players, playstyles and types of builds. We agree that kheldians mezz mitigation should be improved. 

I will give an example that would address this issue while benefiting all players. It would also make kheldians add value to teams, which they do not today.

 

Example: the inherent gives mezz protection which scales based on the number of players in the team.

 

- 1 player (solo): +7 prot to the kheldian, +0 to the team (obviously).

- 2 players: +6 prot to the kheldian, +1 to each teammate.

.

.

.

- 8 players: +0 to the kheldian, +7 to each teammate.

 

This also has the merit of being simple to understand and implement.

 

It favours what makes the AT unique which similar to MM our inherent should encourage, to me if you want to play a human only Kheldian you are better playing a Sentinel, you have more power options and a ton more damage and your inherent is also useful now ❤️

The Mez protection idea is very good (probably too good) but doesn't feel like anything to do with a Kheldian? Maybe on something like a controller/dom where their main thing is mez they could impart that knowledge onto their team on how to resist it, but on a Kheldian it is just a flat buff with 0 ties to the AT. Not to mention shifting will benefit normal Tri Form Kheldians since Changelings won't be a thing come the rework.

[Laucianna]

46 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

I agree with @Laucianna...

 

 

It would feel wrong to me to not lean into the design of multiple forms for Kheldians when considering any future rework. I wouldn't want to see Kheldians shifted towards Sentinel territory (i.e. Blasters with Armor & Mezz protection) or whatever.

 

The oddest thing about the inherent boosts (from my PoV) is that it made the most sense (again, to me) when Cysts were likely to show up in team content... but now that these don't spawn in typical "leveling" content, it is quite rare to notice when a Kheldian is benefiting from Cosmic balance orDark Sustenance. The content where I notice these doing something are on PUGs for thinks like the Penelope Yin TF or the Caverns of Transcendence trial... mid-to-low-ish level content that can be prone to "team wipes".

 

One thing I (points to self) like about Kheldians is that (modulo slotting) they can have all their (unique to AT) power picks by level 32 without having to rely on Epic/Power pool choices to flush them out. I can understand how this can be seen as a defect for players focused on high-level content. Maybe there could be something like a couple of Epic level pools available only to Kheldians that could satisfy certain player cravings? I'm thinking of a couple of typical 5-power sets that might allow Kheldian players to lean a little harder into a player's preferred play style without changing the At for everybody.

The inherent made more sense during the live days since it was a lot harder to get things like perma lightform, damage cap etc. But in the Homecoming days it is pretty darn useless 😄 

[seebs]

I never played khelds much because it was too confusing. Here's a vague pitch for a thing that might be fun: (1) all the buttons can be available to put on bars. if you try to use a button from a different form, you automatically switch AND activate that power, so the switching becomes more fluent and less of an intermediate step. (2) switching breaks any current mez. doesn't provide protection, just if you're mezzed, the mez effects themselves are removed from you. So switching becomes an escape option, and also becomes easier to do with things.

 

Doesn't really address the weaknesses in the inherents, though. Hmm.

[FlammeFatale]

17 minutes ago, Laucianna said:

The Mez protection idea is very good (probably too good) but doesn't feel like anything to do with a Kheldian? Maybe on something like a controller/dom where their main thing is mez they could impart that knowledge onto their team on how to resist it, but on a Kheldian it is just a flat buff with 0 ties to the AT.

 

"Kheldians naturally thrive off the energy and essence of their enemies. Warshades' absorbing nature allows them to draw on the power of their enemies to increase their protection from control effects. 

When you team up, your pent-up control energy can be so much that part of it diffuses to your teammates."

 

I trust the devs to come up with some nice fluff. 🙂

 

[EnjoyTheJourney]

Khelds were designed to be the jack-of-all trades AT with form shifting being the way they do that. One could reasonably argue that khelds should have the ability to function at times like a sentinel, rather than trying to design that out by withholding mez protection from any non-dwarf form. For that matter, many (or more likely most) changes likely to be made to khelds will bring them in some way closer to one AT or another, or a set of ATs; the case for taking special care to avoid at times resembling a sentinel seems obscure. 

 

Also, for the kheldian revamp to go well khelds probably need to be both more powerful (without resorting to changeling) and to involve less complexity and friction than they currently do. That's the gateway to getting more players to be excited about playing them. Otherwise, future kheld revision discussions are likely to be attended by the developers having to ask themselves "How much time should we spend revising an AT which continues to have such a small portion of the population interested in it?" And, the inherent suggestions being bandied about (including my own, to be fair) run the risk of making the AT even more complicated by adding at least one more thing that needs to be actively managed (or at least monitored) to play the AT near the ceiling of its capabilities. 

 

Regarding friction, here are some sources already present in the AT:

Managing a set of binds to get changeling to work so good damage can be achieved

Power tray swapping so powers for each form are easier to manage that needs binds / macros to be efficient 

Get slept or stunned just after shifting out of dwarf, thereby putting a power (perhaps the nuke or eclipse for a warshade) on cooldown before it activates

Form shifting itself, which takes animation time and, as was pointed out, which is both a bit noisy and visually a bit over-the-top
Can be very challenging to slot, very slot starved because there are up to three forms to which to allocates slots, instead of one

Human form toggle drops when shifting to non-human forms has thankfully been addressed. But, what's above is probably just a partial listing of sources of friction associated with playing a kheld that make playing them less enjoyable than it could be. 

 

Edited April 10 by EnjoyTheJourney

[Laucianna]

27 minutes ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

Khelds were designed to be the jack-of-all trades AT with form shifting being the way they do that. One could reasonably argue that khelds should have the ability to function at times like a sentinel, rather than trying to design that out by withholding mez protection from any non-dwarf form. For that matter, many (or more likely most) changes likely to be made to khelds will bring them in some way closer to one AT or another, or a set of ATs; the case for taking special care to avoid at times resembling a sentinel seems obscure. 

 

Also, for the kheldian revamp to go well khelds probably need to be both more powerful (without resorting to changeling) and to involve less complexity and friction than they currently do. That's the gateway to getting more players to be excited about playing them. Otherwise, future kheld revision discussions are likely to be attended by the developers having to ask themselves "How much time should we spend revising an AT which continues to have such a small portion of the population interested in it?" And, the inherent suggestions being bandied about (including my own, to be fair) run the risk of making the AT even more complicated by adding at least one more thing that needs to be actively managed (or at least monitored) to play the AT near the ceiling of its capabilities. 

 

Regarding friction, here are some sources already present in the AT:

Managing a set of binds to get changeling to work so good damage can be achieved

Power tray swapping so powers for each form are easier to manage that needs binds / macros to be efficient 

Get slept or stunned just after shifting out of dwarf, thereby putting a power (perhaps the nuke or eclipse for a warshade) on cooldown before it activates

Form shifting itself, which takes animation time and, as was pointed out, which is both a bit noisy and visually a bit over-the-top
Can be very challenging to slot, very slot starved because there are up to three forms to which to allocates slots, instead of one

Human form toggle drops when shifting to non-human forms has thankfully been addressed. But, what's above is probably just a partial listing of sources of friction associated with playing a kheld that make playing them less enjoyable than it could be. 

 

I fully get the idea to make them easier to get used to, but to me that has been one of the biggest enjoyments out of playing a Kheldian, to start off a bit lost and overwhelmed, always running out of slots and building horribly, but through learning the AT I would like to think I've become pretty good at it. My point is the learning curve to me is something that should remain as much as possible for all the EATs as I would hate for them to be died down to more basic ATs ❤️ 

[Glacier Peak]

Hey Arachnos Widow and Arachnos Soldier are these least played Archetypes in the game, and they got a satisfying buff last update. Maybe there's a design cue or concept to look at there. 

[EnjoyTheJourney]

In case it's interesting, here is a link to a relatively recent massively OP web article looking at the popularity of each AT on COH homecoming. It's just a 30 day snapshot. Still, the VEAT update seems to have had at least some positive effect on their popularity. Or khelds dropped a bit in how appealing players find them. Not sure which might apply. 

https://massivelyop.com/2024/03/07/over-42000-people-played-city-of-heroes-homecoming-in-the-last-month/

Not sure this is a "front and center" issue for discussing inherents. But, trying to understand the extent of the lack of popularity of HEATs may be relevant to HEAT revision discussions. 

Edited April 10 by EnjoyTheJourney

[FlammeFatale]

49 minutes ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

Not sure this is a "front and center" issue for discussing inherents. But, trying to understand the extent of the lack of popularity of HEATs may be relevant to HEAT revision discussions. 

 

I think one of the reasons is that if I want to play say, a blaster, I have 15 primaries and 15 secondaries. This yields 225 different characters. 

If I want to play a Kheldian, I have only 4 possibilities: human, human/dwarf, human/nova and tri-form. And I need only two different toons for this, with 3 alternate builds available per character.

Also, the lack of epic pools further reduces kheldian potential diversity.

 

If I start with a concept first, and want to build to concept, I will probably not end up with a kheldian.

 

A revamp which would channel kheldians into only one efficient type, tri-form, would just make this situation worse.

 

This being said, warshades are the least played AT and I think build diversity is not the only or even main reason. As Laucianna pointed out, they are difficult to build and play well. They have a steep learning curve. I am talking about warshades, I think PB s are much easier. To add to the misery, as EnjoyedTheJourney pointed out, they are clumsy. Too many clicks. You need like 10 clicks to achieve what a blaster can do with only 3.

 

Edited April 10 by FlammeFatale

[Wispur]

I'm a fan of the overall concept. 💙
But I think it may be too complex in practice, as when you look at most of the inherents, they're pretty straight forward and can be explained in a sentence or two.
I'd imagine that right out of the gate, the overflow would need to go as constantly updating team buffs like that are not really a thing CoH does right now, and I don't see the Devs adding that functionality from scratch.

As far as what the actual benefits of the Shift would be, I'll leave that to more numerically inclined Kheldians like Laucianna, Koopak, Doom, etc to figure out, lol.
I trust that they'd come up with something useable.  

Also it would be important to remember that any change to the inherent would not happen in a vacuum, it'd accompany the full Kheldian Revamp which may change power numbers, animation times, Damage Caps, and probably even the way shapeshifting itself works. There'd be a lot of moving pieces to juggle all at once.

But I *do* hope that the Inherent is something that gets looked at, and remade to focus more on shapeshifting in some way, as the current one is essentially nonexistent in that it literally doesn't exist when solo 😑, and does nothing to encourage any type of thematic gameplay when on teams.

And as far as concerns about how it would affect human-only Kheldians, I have none.
Human-only Kheldians are basically the same as Petless Masterminds, sure, they can do it, but players should understand that when they ignore an AT's focus, they're not necessarily gonna get all the toys, that's literally what they're signing up for after all.

Edited April 12 by Wispur

[ScarySai]

I just think each form should have its own inherent in addition to the base. I think things like this conflict with the playstyle and overcomplicate something simple.