Empowerment buffs to last 8 hours

[arcane]

1 minute ago, Snakebit said:

 

The proposal is not an ask for more power.  The ask is a reduction in time sink.  

 

If you aren't willing to acknowledge that, then you aren't making your arguments in good faith. 

I guess I can’t possibly be arguing in good faith and must be the evil forum boogeyman you accuse me of being, because I can’t wrap my head around how an 8 hour buff for the same player input as a 1.5 hour buff is not more power.

[PeregrineFalcon]

2 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Can you please not be a complete troll for a singular thread?

 

Just now, arcane said:

When you’re trolling and you don’t even know it, I guess…

 

Gentlebeings, disagreeing with someone, even if done repeatedly, is not trolling. It's also not bullying, it's not gaslighting, it's not gatekeeping, is there a buzzword that I've missed? Well, it's not that either. Disagreeing with you is just disagreeing with you. Period.

 

Now is allowing the buff duration to be extended a buff? Well, maybe. What people are proposing would increase the amount of salvage that has to be used for the same amount of time. And no one's asking for the power of the buffs to be increased in any way, just the ability to stack duration. All this proposal really does is reduce the number of times a player has to visit their base over the game session. I don't know if that really qualifies as a buff.

 

And I don't know about you, but balancing the game around "how much aggravation will a player tolerate" just doesn't seem like good game design to me. But this is City of Heroes. There's a lot of systems in this game that any neutral observer would call bad game design.

[Snakebit]

5 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

There's a lot of systems in this game that any neutral observer would call bad game design.

 

Hey, let's not beat up on the map designers. They know what they did. 

[arcane]

3 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

All this proposal really does is reduce the number of times a player has to visit their base over the game session. I don't know if that really qualifies as a buff.

I don’t pick up temporary buffs that often, but a couple of nights ago I did. I’ll have those buffs for 1.5 hours because of that action. I probably won’t bother to re-up any time soon, so 1.5 is it for me. If this proposal were reality, I would have those buffs for 8 hours instead. The current cost is irrelevant because you can earn the funds for 8 hours of 20% +recharge faster than you can sneeze. Why is that not a buff?

[Ston]

4 minutes ago, arcane said:

I don’t pick up temporary buffs that often, but a couple of nights ago I did. I’ll have those buffs for 1.5 hours because of that action. I probably won’t bother to re-up any time soon, so 1.5 is it for me. If this proposal were reality, I would have those buffs for 8 hours instead. The current cost is irrelevant because you can earn the funds for 8 hours of 20% +recharge faster than you can sneeze. Why is that not a buff?

 

Depending on the base layout, it takes like 15 seconds to use the p2w base teleport power and buy the empowerments you want. Is that really a core gameplay mechanic that would lead to power creep if it were to be altered? Is looking at loading screens really that important? 

Edited April 12 by Ston

[lemming]

Eh, yes, common salvage is damn cheap, but you still have to have it.  I suppose running by fort trident or the crucible so you could have an open auction house while buffing up would be the thing.

 

Looking at the buffs, most are pretty benign at +5% resistance, but no defense buffs.

 

+25' stealth; I'd have to check if it stacks with normal stealth and/or Celerity.  (Probably Celerity)

Not a huge deal IMO since it's handy, but if you have stealth on, leading hostages, etc... meaning you'd have to delete the power

 

Increase Attack Speed, +20% recharge

This one probably should be adjusted.  Either less buff, or higher salvage cost.

 

Knockback Protection, +10

On the fence here, but should probably be dropped down a bit

 

Increase Recovery

Handy.  It's a better buff than a lot of the set bonuses.

 

I probably wouldn't go for orange salvage to increase costs since that's a much higher number.  Uncommon is still pretty cheap, but there we actually saw the price spike recently.

 

If players were aware, you'd probably see more salvage being sold on the AH.

 

[A.I.D.A.]

Because all it actually does is make it so you only have to stop for ten seconds in Zone-8888 one time in a day's play session, instead of six times.

 

It is the actual definition of quality of life -- being able to buy multiple stacks of a thing at once so you don't have to run back to the shop extra times.

 

No buff numbers are increased, no power is gained relative to the current state of the game before this proposal. No costs are reduced. This proposal would only mean that people who use empowerment buffs need to waste less time and load screens dipping out to Zone-8888 (or their base of choice).

[arcane]

5 minutes ago, Ston said:

 

Depending on the base layout, it takes like 15 seconds to use the p2w base teleport power and buy the empowerments you want. Is that really a core gameplay mechanic that would lead to power creep if it were to be altered? Is looking at loading screens really that important? 

I don’t understand why people keep claiming that visits to their base are a negligible activity. That undercuts your argument, not mine. If it’s so negligible then just visit the damn base.

 

I, on the other hand, don’t find the visits to the base to be negligible; they’re the only meaningful cost these buffs have. 
 

I think it would cause a very small amount of power creep that is completely unnecessary.

[Rudra]

25 minutes ago, arcane said:

I don’t pick up temporary buffs that often, but a couple of nights ago I did. I’ll have those buffs for 1.5 hours because of that action. I probably won’t bother to re-up any time soon, so 1.5 is it for me. If this proposal were reality, I would have those buffs for 8 hours instead.

Yes and no. I agree that the cost in salvage to get 8 hours of buff is negligible, but this argument either needs clarification or is misunderstanding the other side's argument. They aren't asking for the single buff they get from the empowerment station to last for 8 hours, they are asking for the ability to stack the buffs to 8 hours by crafting each buff 8 times after having the current durations reduced to 1 hour from 1.5 hours. I agree that is a joke cost and that the cost of the buffs is the time the player has to spend going back to any base to refresh their buffs. So please don't think I am disagreeing with you.

 

However, if their proposal was modified so that the 1st hour still has the same costs as current but each subsequent hour they craft to stack has an increasing cost in inf' to make up for the stacking time, would that work for you? Adding a cost for any stacking buffs past the first of meaningful value should help, right? (The question here being what constitutes "meaningful value".)

 

Edited April 12 by Rudra
Edited to correct "for" to "from".

[arcane]

Just now, Rudra said:

However, if their proposal was modified so that the 1st hour still has the same costs as current but each subsequent hour they craft to stack has an increasing cost in inf' to make up for the stacking time, would that work for you? Adding a cost for any stacking buffs past the first of meaningful value should help, right? (The question here being what constitutes "meaningful value".)

Yes, added cost would make a difference. It’s this pretending that a couple of pieces of common salvage is a substantial cost that is just ridiculous to me.

[Luminara]

9 minutes ago, Rudra said:

However, if their proposal was modified so that the 1st hour still has the same costs as current but each subsequent hour they craft to stack has an increasing cost in inf' to make up for the stacking time

 

It should stick to salvage so lowbies and newbies aren't arbitrarily excluded.  When you scale the cost of something up so high that only long-term players or hard-core grinders can afford it, you invite more problems than you solve.

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

It should stick to salvage so lowbies and newbies aren't arbitrarily excluded.  When you scale the cost of something up so high that only long-term players or hard-core grinders can afford it, you invite more problems than you solve.

I tried that, but the salvage caps keeps saying no. Even if you scale up the salvage to Uncommon and then Rare depending on buff stacking level as opposed to just doubling the salvage requirements, that still puts it out of reach for starters and lowbies. That's why I think having a scaling up inf' cost, with a different base cost for the 2nd hour based on the character's level and then doubling up from there to match the inf' costs of buying amplifiers to 8 hours is fair. It leaves buffs available for free (sans cheap salvage) at the 1st hour, has a minor inf' cost for the 2nd, and progresses up from there.

[Sunsette]

I don't care about the power creep, personally. They're in the game already, the top level can get them if they want to spend the time. 

 

I'm uncomfortable with the idea because we keep adding harder content to this game (which I like!) and this could conceivably create a situation where there's a community expectation of "raid buffs" for anything semi difficult. And not everyone has a supergroup. I like keeping a lot of my characters out of one, I only built my first base last month. I almost never use the zone portal SGs. 

 

I'm sympathetic to the convenience argument but I've seen this sort of thing landslide in other games before. When a powerful buff becomes convenient to maintain and there's content that isn't completely trivial, community metas adjust.

 

I've been reluctant to say anything because I like most of the proponents of this change, and this is already a very negative board. But I don't really like this idea, not as it is. I'm open to discussion about how it could be improved, if possible, to address concerns. I don't like the idea of increasing costs because that actually deepens issues along those lines: another, more expensive, expected but obscured element of player power. We have so many of those already. 

Edited April 12 by Sunsette

[Shin Magmus]

Sunsette, the harder content is optional.  Most of the playerbase doesn't even attempt it once, let alone understand it.  You don't have to worry about that.

[Sunsette]

I understand that perspective.

 

But in my ideal City, many more players would feel encouraged -- not obligated, no treadmills, please -- to engage with more challenging content than they do right now, and doing that without removing or worsening the existing easy content will be an involved process that requires consideration on many points. 

 

We'll never ever reach majority adoption, of course, that's not in the cards for any game. But I want to make as nice a ramp as possible. 

Edited April 12 by Sunsette

[Jacke]

45 minutes ago, Sunsette said:

I'm open to discussion about how it could be improved, if possible, to address concerns. I don't like the idea of increasing costs because that actually deepens issues along those lines: another, more expensive, expected but obscured element of player power. We have so many of those already. 

 

Improve it...?   Herm....  Make Base Buffs last 12 hours...?  😺  But that doesn't address your concerns.

 

More seriously, I'd rather have Base Buffs added to the Portable Workbench.  That way, you could refresh the Buffs in the field.  And whether unlocked by gaining the Field Crafter Badge or spending 10million Influence at the P2W S.T.A.R.T. vendor, more Portable Workbenches means more Influence sunk.  And in the field consumes Influence as well.

 

Just one more thing....

 

The Base Buff "Grant Invisibility" is rather different from the Concealment Pool Power of the same name.  One or the other should be renamed.

 

 

Edited April 12 by Jacke

[Sunsette]

That's an interesting idea i would need to think about, Jacke. (I have substituted Finland in lieu of a thonk emoji, given our limited reaction options.) There aren't a lot of immediately equivalent situations in other games to draw from, but the closest I can think of (reagent party buffs) was a largely positive mechanic I think. 

Edited April 12 by Sunsette

[Luminara]

37 minutes ago, Sunsette said:

this could conceivably create a situation where there's a community expectation of "raid buffs" for anything semi difficult.

 

Reasonable concern.  But bases have been free for five years, empowerment stations have been in Trident and Crucible for 18 months, and... not one person has made a post about being expected to have empowerment buffs, or denied a spot on a HM or * team if they didn't have them.  I suspect that the majority of buffs are of such little value in end-game scenarios that they're generally ignored, and the remainder are overshadowed by IO set bonuses and teammate buffs.  They're all useful for leveling, but not so much once you have purples and attuned ATOs and Incarnates.

[shortguy on indom]

Having a difficult time following what is going on in this thread....

 

Made a 1/2 ass chart:  Not sure if this is correct or not.... but I am confused as all get out at this point.

 

Nothing has completely been resolved in any form.  Help me out here.

 

Summary So Far? ...first 5 pages.
QoL vs NOT QoL
QoL vs PowerCreep
QoL vs NOT PowerCreep
PowerCreep vs NOT QoL
PowerCreep vs NOT PowerCreep
sub-debate: PowerCreep vs PowerCreep
misunderstanding/resolution PowerCreep side
splintererd PowerCreep Side vs QoL
Idea vs Personal
QoL vs Personal
Idea vs QoL
RewardCreep (power) vs RewardCreep (time)
RewardCreep vs PowerCreep
QoL vs RewardCreep
Smith vs Jones
Smith Memories vs Jones Memories
Smith #2 vs Jones
QoL vs Negativity

 

 

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, shortguy on indom said:

Having a difficult time following what is going on in this thread....

 

Made a 1/2 ass chart:  Not sure if this is correct or not.... but I am confused as all get out at this point.

 

Nothing has completely been resolved in any form.  Help me out here.

 

Summary So Far? ...first 5 pages.
QoL vs NOT QoL
QoL vs PowerCreep
QoL vs NOT PowerCreep
PowerCreep vs NOT QoL
PowerCreep vs NOT PowerCreep
sub-debate: PowerCreep vs PowerCreep
misunderstanding/resolution PowerCreep side
splintererd PowerCreep Side vs QoL
Idea vs Personal
QoL vs Personal
Idea vs QoL
RewardCreep (power) vs RewardCreep (time)
RewardCreep vs PowerCreep
QoL vs RewardCreep
Smith vs Jones
Smith Memories vs Jones Memories
Smith #2 vs Jones
QoL vs Negativity

 

 

Short version/summary:

 

Empowerment stations are available for free in any SG to build as well already available at the Crucible and Fort Trident.

Empowerment stations grant a buff lasting 90 minutes (regardless of what the in game description says) for the cost of 1 common salvage, 2 common salvage, or 2 common salvage + 1 uncommon salvage depending on the buff.

The request is for the buff duration to be reduced to 1 hour, but also be stackable up to 8 hours duration if crafted 8 times.

Opposition is that the cost of the buffs for 8 hours of benefit is not sufficient for benefits received, the time required to go back and replenish said buffs is part of the cost of those buffs, and removing the time required to go back and refresh the buffs needs to be offset if the buffs are made stackable.

 

The reasons given for why the OP should be done or why the OP should not be done is the circular argument of power creep vs quality of life vs irrelevant change vs anything else going on. Does that help?

[Laucianna]

@arcane What if for the better buffs like recharge and recovery a single orange salvage is used to craft the 1 hour buff? So if you want 8 hours it will cost you around 4m?

[arcane]

3 minutes ago, Laucianna said:

@arcane What if for the better buffs like recharge and recovery a single orange salvage is used to craft the 1 hour buff? So if you want 8 hours it will cost you around 4m?

I would consider maybe extending that to damage resistance buffs (or some? S/L?) but yeah that sounds reasonable to me.

Edited April 12 by arcane

[Laucianna]

3 minutes ago, arcane said:

I would consider maybe extending that to damage resistance buffs (or some? S/L?) but yeah that sounds reasonable to me.

The only reason I wouldn't include damage resistance buffs is you get a much better version from START that gives you 5% resist AND defense to ALL for only 2.5m ❤️

[arcane]

5 minutes ago, Laucianna said:

The only reason I wouldn't include damage resistance buffs is you get a much better version from START that gives you 5% resist AND defense to ALL for only 2.5m ❤️

My thinking is base buffs have at least the recharge, recovery, and damage resistance of amplifiers if you get them all. We’ll say 3 of 9 main effects, plus some other things. So, I’m thinking it would be reasonable for a full set to cost you 15-30 mil per 8 hours if amps cost 60 mil per 8 hours. And giving 4-6 of the best choices a rare salvage requirement would get you there. IMO that’s a reasonable cost if they’re going to have parity with Amplifiers’ 8 hours.

Edited April 12 by arcane

[Laucianna]

3 minutes ago, arcane said:

My thinking is base buffs have at least the recharge, recovery, and damage resistance of amplifiers if you get them all. We’ll say 3 of 9 main effects. So, I’m thinking it would be reasonable for a full set to cost you 15-30 mil per 8 hours if amps cost 60 mil per 8 hours. And giving 4-6 of the best choices a rare salvage requirement would get you there. IMO that’s a reasonable cost if they’re going to have parity with Amplifiers’ 8 hours.

Just taking the resist if you add orange salvage: It will cost 32m for the 8 hours compared to the START vendor which for twice the benefit will only cost 20m and is much easier to have inf on you then the required salvage