High level enemy group revamps

[Sanguinesun]

7 minutes ago, Triumphant said:

Well, in all fairness, the mobs are never going to be "tricky", because the mobs A.I. is dumb as a brick.  If you don't increase resistances, controls, debuffs, etc. how do you make them tougher?  More hps?  Hard combat AT's chew through those like a buzzsaw.  Give the mobs a massive to-hit and damage boost?  Maybe, but the players that like squishy AT's would moan about this.

 

I mean, I'm no Dev, so I'm talking out of my wazoo to a large extent here, but it seems to me that you've got  a limited number of tools to work with, unless  you just want to leave the mobs as the ridiculously easy faceroll that they have been- which for endgame play, seems completely unsatisfying to me, personally.  I know people say they want to feel "super" and yeah, I get that.  But there's (IMO) a qualitative difference between being super (sure, gimme some of that) and an automatic "I win" button (no thank you).

 

Point was that the change was just to be a time sink/deterence and as was mentioned by folks much earlier in the thread. The purpose is because a segment of the people implementing these things wishes exp to take longer and to deter certain types of common play(like paper/radio mish use in this manner and more.).  Zeleski accurately sums up how the effort just turned the mobs into being annoying vs actually being meaningful with the changes and the changes really didnt need to occur to begin with.

[Shin Magmus]

10 hours ago, Sanguinesun said:

 

Point was that the change was just to be a time sink/deterence and as was mentioned by folks much earlier in the thread. The purpose is because a segment of the people implementing these things wishes exp to take longer and to deter certain types of common play(like paper/radio mish use in this manner and more.).  Zeleski accurately sums up how the effort just turned the mobs into being annoying vs actually being meaningful with the changes and the changes really didnt need to occur to begin with.

     Imagine if the devs spent that time and energy buffing dogshit sets up to par: like Empathy, Broadsword, Staff Fighting, Empathy, Kinetic Melee, Archery, Empathy, and finally Empathy.  Making the weakest sets in the game be less awful would have actually improved player enjoyment instead of spawning 16 page topics like this one...

[Ruin Mage]

That implies all the devs work on the same things. They do not.

Example:
Cobalt Arachne does not generally touch powers. His area is usually content or QOL for folks. I.e a new area for RP for RPers.
Powerhouse does not generally touch content. Her area is generally powersets - new and current/old.

Power Devs work on power sets. They don't usually/generally work on enemy groups outside of their changes also affecting NPCs.
Power Devs are also likely aware of what sets have fallen behind, but like all good things it takes time to come up with an idea. Even more time to make sure that idea doesn't brick something else. Or maybe even more time to see if x idea is better than y idea.

What a dev spends their time and energy on is based on what time they have available and what they have an interest in, at bare minimum.

Or so I'm told.

[CrusaderDroid]

45 minutes ago, Ruin Mage said:

Power Devs are also likely aware of what sets have fallen behind, but like all good things it takes time to come up with an idea. Even more time to make sure that idea doesn't brick something else. Or maybe even more time to see if x idea is better than y idea.

About one hour, tops.

 

Programming being time intensive? Sure. I can believe that. The basic design groundwork being time intensive? Only if you're so unpracticed that it takes you days to think of one power.

 

Ideas are not a big deal. I don't know the power team myself, so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume it's the coding with a janky system that holds up anything, instead of the frankly insulting implication that they are somehow unable to generate ideas.

[tidge]

16 hours ago, Sanguinesun said:

In the recent Original Devs Q&A, Phil "Synapse" Zeleski was asked:

 

And regarding the revamps to the mobs, he mirrored my thoughts on all this perfectly:

 

• I think the only parts of Homecoming that I am not a big fan of are the revamps of some of the endgame enemy groups. The Council and Circle of Thorns really stand out as just annoying to fight. They aren't tricky or require counterplay, they just take longer to defeat due to resistances, revives and debuffs.

 

Does he remember how needlessly grindy the original Live Incarnate content was? Does Phil ever recall the other level 35+ groups?

 

The nuCouncil and nuCoT are no more "annoying" to fight that Rularuu, Nemesis, MoG PP, Carnie Illusionists, etc.

[Super Atom]

Synapse is 100% correct, making enemies take longer to kill is not difficulty. It's just more boring. I don't personally mind the council or cot revamps myself as they still don't take very long but i too wish homecoming had the time and man power to revamp enemy groups to have cool gimmicks and mechanics instead of more resistances and the ability to revive. I'm sure homecoming wishes they had more time and man power too' just a hunch

Edited June 6 by Super Atom

[tidge]

52 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

Synapse is 100% correct, making enemies take longer to kill is not difficulty. It's just more boring.

 

NuCouncil used to have no tricks, and were doormats compared to other groups. It is no secret that players would advertise "Council Radios in PI", I am not going to be convinced it is because the OTHER groups in radio options lacked "cool gimmicks". I think it is disingenuous for a "Live Dev" to throw shade at the most recent update to enemy groups when what we had on live was not exactly imaginative. KoV and BP in Dark Astoria... pretty good! Other groups that never got updated on Live? Pretty big blind spot IMO.

 

Personally, I find the Carnies to be the MOST annoying (not the most difficult) at x8, because of the constant phasing, flying and running. NuCouncil, even with an occasional runner, is still easier to deal with.

 

Even low levels have some highly annoying "classic" enemy behavior. I'm thinking of defeat all or even defeat specific spawns were the original CoT spectres go invisible and fly away. Tell me more about the classic non-boring play.

[arcane]

Obviously the devs did the right thing by buffing Council and CoT. For years we have all been open about Council being a complete joke and basically free xp at +4x8. Now that they’re mildly annoying to fight, everyone is conveniently developing amnesia about the previous state of things.

[Super Atom]

6 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

NuCouncil used to have no tricks, and were doormats compared to other groups. It is no secret that players would advertise "Council Radios in PI", I am not going to be convinced it is because the OTHER groups in radio options lacked "cool gimmicks". I think it is disingenuous for a "Live Dev" to throw shade at the most recent update to enemy groups when what we had on live was not exactly imaginative. KoV and BP in Dark Astoria... pretty good! Other groups that never got updated on Live? Pretty big blind spot IMO.

 

Personally, I find the Carnies to be the MOST annoying (not the most difficult) at x8, because of the constant phasing, flying and running. NuCouncil, even with an occasional runner, is still easier to deal with.

 

Even low levels have some highly annoying "classic" enemy behavior. I'm thinking of defeat all or even defeat specific spawns were the original CoT spectres go invisible and fly away. Tell me more about the classic non-boring play.

 

I mean you right, that carnie phase mechanic is bad. However, most enemy groups are fine really even the new changes are still fine imo i love when they turn into wolfs at death myself. Synpase didn't make the carnies, rularuu, defeat all missions or a huge plethora of the things that are usually considered annoying. He was hired in 2008. It's entirely possible he believed those mechanics weren't the best as well, you'd have to ask him though.

 

For the record though, I think he was talking as a homecoming player and his opinion on what he likes least, since he was asked "would do differently if it was you in charge?." I am biased though, Synapse/Bab were my favorite devs.

[mistagoat]

I greatly dislike the changes. These groups have just had boring time sinks added to them.

 

Even worse, you get nothing for the added effort. When you kill a Freak you get xp and then when that Freak rez's you kill it again and get another helping of xp. You get nothing but your time wasted by the council that turn into wolves. There isn't even an interesting mechanic involved. With a Super Stunner, you know you have to knock him away or get yourself away before he dies if you don't want him to rez. To go even further, if the Stunner rez's with you nearby he rez's with some life but if he rez's with the whole team around him he gets full life. Sure they can be a pain but there is a game to outsmarting them.

 

With the council, the player has no agency, there is nothing one can actively do to prevent them from turning and you can't affect how much life they turn with. It's all just rng, utterly devoid of creativity. X amount of these will turn and when a boss turns and you effectively kill 2 bosses you get 1 boss worth of xp. If I have to deal with rezzers/turners I'll just avoid the Council and go kill Freaks where at least I'm rewarded for the effort.

 

EDIT: I stand corrected, disregard my blatherings...

Edited June 6 by mistagoat
foolishness

[Rudra]

44 minutes ago, mistagoat said:

You get nothing but your time wasted by the council that turn into wolves.

I must be doing something weird then because when a Council or 5th Column enemy turns into a wolf, there is a blurb in the chat window that shows me getting xp and inf'.

 

45 minutes ago, mistagoat said:

With the council, the player has no agency, there is nothing one can actively do to prevent them from turning

Yes you can. I have never had a Council or 5th Column enemy turn into a wolf while held and their transformation always ended if I finished them at the start of the animation.

[tidge]

53 minutes ago, mistagoat said:

I greatly dislike the changes. These groups have just had boring time sinks added to them.

 

Even worse, you get nothing for the added effort. When you kill a Freak you get xp and then when that Freak rez's you kill it again and get another helping of xp.

 

IIRC, Freaks have generally lower XP because they can rez.

[Shin Magmus]

1 hour ago, Super Atom said:

 

I mean you right, that carnie phase mechanic is bad. However, most enemy groups are fine really even the new changes are still fine imo i love when they turn into wolfs at death myself. Synpase didn't make the carnies, rularuu, defeat all missions or a huge plethora of the things that are usually considered annoying. He was hired in 2008. It's entirely possible he believed those mechanics weren't the best as well, you'd have to ask him though.

 

For the record though, I think he was talking as a homecoming player and his opinion on what he likes least, since he was asked "would do differently if it was you in charge?." I am biased though, Synapse/Bab were my favorite devs.

     The Carnie phase mechanic feels random (and it effectively is) and this dramatically punishes builds with a strong single attack that they build around, or a debuff they need to hit in order to soften up targets.  Say for example you use Melt Armor on your Thermal on the Carnie group but that stupid boss phase dodges it: you've been robbed of your -Res and won't get it till the next fight.  Now say you're on an Energy Melee character and your TF gets phase dodged: welp your whole set doesn't work now and you don't get any Fast ETs until it recovers.  The problem is glaring and that is an enemy group that people really don't like.  Compared to that, nuCoT and nuCouncil are still not as annoying.  Gosh I hate fighting Carnies so much.

[mistagoat]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

I must be doing something weird then because when a Council or 5th Column enemy turns into a wolf, there is a blurb in the chat window that shows me getting xp and inf'.

 

Yes you can. I have never had a Council or 5th Column enemy turn into a wolf while held and their transformation always ended if I finished them at the start of the animation.

You're right, not sure how I missed it, my apologies.

[Luminara]

28 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

The Carnie phase mechanic feels random (and it effectively is)

 

5s phase,15s activation period.  Not random at all.

[tidge]

Perhaps what dear @Shin Magmus is trying to say is more like this:

 

"Because of various combat effects, including player RNG rolls resulting in MISS with a single-target attack/control that would have otherwise kept a specific Carnie from phasing, fights with large Carnie spawns feel peculiarly random in ways that fights with other similarly sized spawns do not."

 

Maybe It was in reference to whether or not the enemy Illusionists phase before the player fires off an AoE against their spawn? Both are more annoying than any trick played by nuCouncil.

 

We've all experience an RNG-cursed miss after a Build-Up/Assassin's Strike... but I think all the times I've missed with any attack/control against a phasing Carnie that if it had hit would have either face-planted them or held them, and I don't feel at all bad about those missed AS.

[Warboss]

I don't care for the changes, but you can mitigate them by building with certain sets. What I don't understand is "why"? If you can offset the issue with a base buff or change your build (which I don't like because it limits build options), and I doubt this slows teams down that were running Council only mission, was the change worth it? I mean, did anyone really brag about having an amped out build that could defeat Council? If so, did anyone really take that seriously? The change just makes the group a pain, and didn't really move the game forward. I would have rathered the dev time being spent on something else, new content, new costume pieces, new groups, pretty much anything... So, did it really solve the problem? If the rez'd boss/Lts (or whoever can rez) grant additional xp and inf... then, ummm... did it work?

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, Warboss said:

I don't care for the changes, but you can mitigate them by building with certain sets. What I don't understand is "why"? If you can offset the issue with a base buff or change your build (which I don't like because it limits build options), and I doubt this slows teams down that were running Council only mission, was the change worth it? I mean, did anyone really brag about having an amped out build that could defeat Council? If so, did anyone really take that seriously? The change just makes the group a pain, and didn't really move the game forward. I would have rathered the dev time being spent on something else, new content, new costume pieces, new groups, pretty much anything... So, did it really solve the problem? If the rez'd boss/Lts (or whoever can rez) grant additional xp and inf... then, ummm... did it work?

The Council are now more in line with the other factions, making them less a pushover group, so I'm going to go out on a limb and say "yes, it worked". Because now players are considering base buffs and actually employing strategy even if only to prioritize targets or maintain sufficient distance from downed mobs.

 

(Edit: Yes, soon the Council will become routine again to everyone and players will resume just steamrolling them without a care outside of the random FREEM!, but at least for now, players are being a little more observant or careful or tactical or making teams for them or otherwise at least not just laughing at the high level mobs that are still fighting them like they are low to mid level heroes/villains.)

 

Edit again: And yes, the rezzed Council give their xp/inf' rewards upon their defeat again just like every other rezzed enemy.

 

Edited June 30 by Rudra

[Warboss]

46 minutes ago, Rudra said:

The Council are now more in line with the other factions, making them less a pushover group, so I'm going to go out on a limb and say "yes, it worked". Because now players are considering base buffs and actually employing strategy even if only to prioritize targets or maintain sufficient distance from downed mobs.

 

(Edit: Yes, soon the Council will become routine again to everyone and players will resume just steamrolling them without a care outside of the random FREEM!, but at least for now, players are being a little more observant or careful or tactical or making teams for them or otherwise at least not just laughing at the high level mobs that are still fighting them like they are low to mid level heroes/villains.)

 

Edit again: And yes, the rezzed Council give their xp/inf' rewards upon their defeat again just like every other rezzed enemy.

 

 

I'll take your word for it, but based on what little testing I've done (I don't have a lot of free time these days), I don't think the change/bad will was worth the cost of a developer's time. As you state, they will become routine again. Base on other aspects of the game that are "farmable", I have a hard time understanding why these changes were needed. One other thing I forgot to mention is that these changes disproportionately affect Resistance sets vs Defensive sets (for armors, I would image it's the same for other power sets as well). With Dark Armor and Fire Armor taking the major hit as they have no to little KB protection to start (FA now haw a whopping 1 KB from Temp Protection now). While at the same time, the recent buffs/changes to Invuln and Stone move them to the S+ tier (arguably to the S++ as they were already pretty awesome to start) as the KB doesn't affect them due to the KB Resistance the sets have (10,000 mag (?), sorry don't recall the exact number/increment). Seems like the other Armor sets should get some level of the Resistance as well, or have there base level raised so you don't have to commit extra slots to more KB protection. Overall it seems like this was rushed, and not fully tested. As I stated before, did anyone really care that players were enjoying the game running Council. After all, there are other ways to do basically the same thing.

 

 

[Rudra]

3 minutes ago, Warboss said:

 

I'll take your word for it, but based on what little testing I've done (I don't have a lot of free time these days), I don't think the change/bad will was worth the cost of a developer's time.

Except the developers already did it. They chose to do it and they did it. So the devs decided it was worth their time. Who are we to second guess if someone else thinks something is worth their time to do after they have already done it?

 

Edited June 30 by Rudra
Edited to contract quote.

[Akisan]

Having actually had more time to solo a few of the upgraded Council and CoT - the new versions of these groups are more fun to play.  I actually have to prioritize targets against the Council now (including tossing a Hold on every non-wolf Lt./Boss before they reach critical HP), and the CoT has more variety now, so they're less of a boring slog to wade through. 

 

My only complaint about the groups so far is the "Freem!" mechanic.  I very deliberately put my main up to 13 pts. KB protection so I wouldn't be tossed around - and that's much less about the "unable to act" portion (Stuns/Sleeps do that just fine, thanks), but really about how jarring it is (as a player) to be suddenly sent flying.  Having random 20 pt. KBs throwing me around is not fun to play against.

[Rudra]

4 minutes ago, Akisan said:

Having actually had more time to solo a few of the upgraded Council and CoT - the new versions of these groups are more fun to play.  I actually have to prioritize targets against the Council now (including tossing a Hold on every non-wolf Lt./Boss before they reach critical HP), and the CoT has more variety now, so they're less of a boring slog to wade through. 

 

My only complaint about the groups so far is the "Freem!" mechanic.  I very deliberately put my main up to 13 pts. KB protection so I wouldn't be tossed around - and that's much less about the "unable to act" portion (Stuns/Sleeps do that just fine, thanks), but really about how jarring it is (as a player) to be suddenly sent flying.  Having random 20 pt. KBs throwing me around is not fun to play against.

Freem! definitely needs to be toned back. I wholeheartedly agree with your description including that.

[Warboss]

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

Except the developers already did it. They chose to do it and they did it. So the devs decided it was worth their time. Who are we to second guess if someone else thinks something is worth their time to do after they have already done it?

 

 

I'm trying to get my head around this. If I understand what you're saying, because they did it, it was the correct thing to do? Or, because they did it, it was just worth their time? I'd like to point out that just because you do something, doesn't make it right (and perhaps, not worth your time). As I've already said, the change disproportionately effects certain sets over others. Based on that alone, if that it was known, and the change was done anyway, it would imply that their intent was to impact those sets. Does that seem like a well thought out change? Really? Impact all set but the top tier ones? Seems like set choices to use when running said content just got trimmed down.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Warboss said:

 

I'm trying to get my head around this. If I understand what you're saying, because they did it, it was the correct thing to do? Or, because they did it, it was just worth their time?

No, I'm saying because the devs already did it, there is no point to arguing about whether it was worth their time or not. The devs that already made these changes and had them implemented decided the change was worth their time. So we as the players of the game do not get to say it was not worth their time because they obviously thought it was for having done so. So if you want a change rolled back or changed to something else, find a different argument other than what the devs chose to do was not worth their time, because you do not get to decide what another person thinks is or is not worth their time, especially after they already showed they felt it was for having already done it.

 

(Edit: So to simplify my response, no for the 1st question and yes for the 2nd question.)

 

Edit again: You know what would make something a dev spent time making for the game a waste of their time? Telling them to remove it afterwards. If they remove something from the game after they have already spent the time developing it, testing it, and then implementing it, then all that time spent developing, testing, and implementing whatever it was is very much wasted for having to be removed. So you are asking the devs to have wasted their time when you ask them to undo something because you as a player of the game they are maintaining decided you think it was a waste of time. So if you want something changed or undone? You need a different argument than what is or is not a waste of time for them.

 

Edited June 30 by Rudra
Edited to correct "the" to "them".

[Sanguinesun]

On 7/1/2024 at 7:47 AM, Rudra said:

No, I'm saying because the devs already did it, there is no point to arguing about whether it was worth their time or not. The devs that already made these changes and had them implemented decided the change was worth their time. So we as the players of the game do not get to say it was not worth their time because they obviously thought it was for having done so. So if you want a change rolled back or changed to something else, find a different argument other than what the devs chose to do was not worth their time, because you do not get to decide what another person thinks is or is not worth their time, especially after they already showed they felt it was for having already done it.

 

(Edit: So to simplify my response, no for the 1st question and yes for the 2nd question.)

 

Edit again: You know what would make something a dev spent time making for the game a waste of their time? Telling them to remove it afterwards. If they remove something from the game after they have already spent the time developing it, testing it, and then implementing it, then all that time spent developing, testing, and implementing whatever it was is very much wasted for having to be removed. So you are asking the devs to have wasted their time when you ask them to undo something because you as a player of the game they are maintaining decided you think it was a waste of time. So if you want something changed or undone? You need a different argument than what is or is not a waste of time for them.

 

 

No right way to inanely defend the wrong thing.