Still can't get started on Incarnate stuff.

[Eiko-chan]

15 minutes ago, Zombra said:

This is a ridiculous and frankly insulting comparison. 

Well, I apologise for insulting you. It was not my intention, nor was I passive-aggressively fishing for Superiority Points™ or whatever other nefarious purpose you think my message was attempting. I am neuro-divergent - probably have ASD though I have never been formally diagnosed and likely never will be at my age - and my words tend to mean exactly what they say on the page, without hidden agendas behind them.

 

I appreciate the long-form explanation of what precisely frustrates you about the system. I agree that equipping the abilities is pretty obtuse, and that's probably not the greatest tab to be the first one to come up, either. 

 

The pop-up upon levelling to 10 that introduces you to the Invention system is a relatively new thing, and Mender Ramiel popping up at level 50 is basically the same thing. I'm not sure how that could be better done, except maybe to more explicitly make the message you get upon levelling to 50 say he's there to explain Incarnates? 

 

But as far as the top-down versus bottom-up issue, that's not going to be a universal problem. The Incarnate trees are trees, and trees grow from the roots up, not from the leaves down. Flipping the overlay would likely confuse just as many people as are currently confused by the existing layout. Though maybe Ramiel could be modified to say something about it, at least.

[Zombra]

1 hour ago, Eiko-chan said:

Well, I apologise for insulting you. It was not my intention, nor was I passive-aggressively fishing for Superiority Points™ or whatever other nefarious purpose you think my message was attempting. I am neuro-divergent - probably have ASD though I have never been formally diagnosed and likely never will be at my age - and my words tend to mean exactly what they say on the page, without hidden agendas behind them.

 

I appreciate the long-form explanation of what precisely frustrates you about the system. I agree that equipping the abilities is pretty obtuse, and that's probably not the greatest tab to be the first one to come up, either. 

 

The pop-up upon levelling to 10 that introduces you to the Invention system is a relatively new thing, and Mender Ramiel popping up at level 50 is basically the same thing. I'm not sure how that could be better done, except maybe to more explicitly make the message you get upon levelling to 50 say he's there to explain Incarnates? 

 

But as far as the top-down versus bottom-up issue, that's not going to be a universal problem. The Incarnate trees are trees, and trees grow from the roots up, not from the leaves down. Flipping the overlay would likely confuse just as many people as are currently confused by the existing layout. Though maybe Ramiel could be modified to say something about it, at least.

 

I appreciate that, and I apologize in return if the hostility in my response was hurtful.

 

As to how exactly Incarnate could be done better, I'm not sure if that's a useful conversation at this point as I doubt anything will be changed.  Certainly, anything pointing to Ramiel would be better than what we have now (which is nothing).  I would definitely support changing the Ramiel popup to be very explicit about being an important intro to this whole huge endgame system.  Right now, the only hint that the Incarnate system exists at all (besides the up-to-now-utterly-meaningless Abilities window) is when you suddenly start getting some weird special xp and notifications of salvage you never heard of before (oh good, more currencies!), with no warning or explanation.  This all leads to the vague feeling that you should not only be doing something, but already know what you're doing.  You're pushed out of the plane to parachute into enemy territory, but no one even told you what your mission is, much less how to accomplish it.  Really, I don't think you should even get Incarnate xp or salvage at all until you've unlocked that storyline.

 

By the way, I also never suggested that the Create menu (or anything) should be changed now - obviously that would cause problems for those already familiar with it.  The point wasn't to fix it by flipping it over again - the point was that it was designed in a dumb way in the first place.  A problem doesn't have to be "universal" to be bad, and this was done in a way that is bad.  In short, you asked "What's wrong with it?" and I am simply explaining what is wrong with it.  🙂

 

If the Homecoming devs want to have a conversation about changing the intro to Incarnate, I'd be happy to be part of the brainstorm.  Until then, the thread has served its purpose as far as I'm concerned - which was no more than for me to be able to start using the system.  If the thread can be valuable in other ways or to other people, great; and I'm happy to keep responding to anyone who brings in new ideas or who needs help understanding the point.

 

Edited June 13 by Zombra

[BlackSpectre]

On 6/5/2024 at 9:34 AM, Zombra said:

2) When teaching you crafting, what Ramiel doesn't tell you is that the crafting trees start at the bottom.  If you start at the top, all you will see are recipes with ingredients you literally cannot access (yet).  I looked at 10 different trees but since I always started with the nonsense recipes at the top, I concluded I was missing a step.  I was not - the layout is just dumb.

 

It's a recipe "tree", and trees grow up toward the sun (not down). So...

 

Here's something you can find in some Guides, but is not mentioned by Mender Ramiel...  the incarnate power slots unlock from bottom to top. You unlock them by gaining incarnate experience. Incarnate XP is gained through gaining Veteran levels and XP after level 50. Incarnate XP is gained simply by killing things. Now here's the good stuff... if you would prefer to start building your incarnate powers in a different order than bottom to top, you need to unlock the other incarnate slots before you can start crafting those powers. The FASTEST way to gain incarnate XP is to run or tag along on XP farms in Architect Entertainment. In less than 1 hour you can unlock all of the incarnate slots. 

 

In addition to XP, while farming you'll also get many incarnate threads dropped. Each defeated boss has a chance to drop a thread. And lastly, you'll probably reach Veteran level 3 while XP farming, which means you'll also earn 20 Empyrean merits!

 

Since I run BAF trials a lot, I like to unlock my Lore Pet first, then Alpha, Hybrid, Judgement, Destiny, and lastly Interface. I unlock Lore first so that I can be more helpful in the prisoner phase of the BAF trial while I continue to earn incarnate salvage for my other incarnate powers.

 

[Eiko-chan]

41 minutes ago, BlackSpectre said:

In addition to XP, while farming you'll also get many incarnate threads dropped. Each defeated boss has a chance to drop a thread.

Every enemy of level 50 or higher has a chance to drop a Thread, but the chance is related to their tier, so Lieutenants have a higher drop rate than Minions, and Bosses have an even higher drop rate than Lieutenants. 

[Zombra]

46 minutes ago, BlackSpectre said:

It's a recipe "tree", and trees grow up toward the sun (not down). So...

 

I didn't say this before, but .. y'all know it's not an actual tree, right?  It's a flowchart, which normally go top to down and left to right.

Sometimes skill "trees" in games do indeed go down to up or in all kinds of different directions, but it is not unnatural to start looking at the top left.

 

Edited June 14 by Zombra

[BlackSpectre]

3 hours ago, Zombra said:

is not unnatural to start looking at the top left.

I do it all the time! But then I realize I'm looking down at people... 😉

 

I think it's a matter of personal preference/experience, whether you like trees going up or down, or sideways. I don't think any way is particularly "dumb" though.

Edited June 14 by BlackSpectre

[Greycat]

9 hours ago, Eiko-chan said:

But as far as the top-down versus bottom-up issue, that's not going to be a universal problem. The Incarnate trees are trees, and trees grow from the roots up, not from the leaves down. Flipping the overlay would likely confuse just as many people as are currently confused by the existing layout. Though maybe Ramiel could be modified to say something about it, at least.

 

I don't think the UI would support it, but greying out or hiding what's unavailable to make first might be a thing.

 

(I'm used to it, so whether it would "help" or not... *shrug*)

[GM Crumpet]

I have Mender Ramiel pop up as soon as I level up to 50, as well as Officer Nolan in PI to start the Dark Astoria arcs. I agree they can get lost in the list of contacts though.

 

One thing people get confused by is crafting. The Alpha slot doesn't help having two sets of recipes. The top ones are really hard to get components for and are a legacy from live, where you needed multiple notice of the well and could only get one a week. If you scroll to the bottom you'll see simple recipes using threads and Empyrion merits. The creation section is simple enough to use though, click threads to make common and uncommon components and emp merits to make rare and ultra rare. 

 

The trick to knowing what to do is knowing where you want to end up. Many incarnate powers plug holes in your build. Do you need more damage? Run out of endurance a lot? die from being mezzed or stunned on a regular basis? There's a power for that. Check out the two tier 4 powers and decide which one you want to finish with. You can't respec incarnate powers so once created you are stuck with it and have to create a new one if you decide something else will be better.

 

Lore is a rather good pet you can summon every ten minutes. some people like the big boys like Banished Pantheon or Longbow, others like the small ones like Polar Lights. I generally go polar lights myself, but some of the human ones can be fun.

 

Judgement is a nuke. Ion jumps between enemies and can be good for very large groups, the others are either a cone, or a AoE. None of them are terrible.

 

Opening slots is as simple as doing content. The alpha slot can be opened quickly doing Mender Ramiel, and he also has a lot of stuff on incarnates and how to create and use them.

[Maelwys]

5 hours ago, GM Crumpet said:

The trick to knowing what to do is knowing where you want to end up. Many incarnate powers plug holes in your build. Do you need more damage? Run out of endurance a lot? die from being mezzed or stunned on a regular basis? There's a power for that. Check out the two tier 4 powers and decide which one you want to finish with. You can't respec incarnate powers so once created you are stuck with it and have to create a new one if you decide something else will be better.

 

Lore is a rather good pet you can summon every ten minutes. some people like the big boys like Banished Pantheon or Longbow, others like the small ones like Polar Lights. I generally go polar lights myself, but some of the human ones can be fun.

 

Judgement is a nuke. Ion jumps between enemies and can be good for very large groups, the others are either a cone, or a AoE. None of them are terrible.

 

Opening slots is as simple as doing content. The alpha slot can be opened quickly doing Mender Ramiel, and he also has a lot of stuff on incarnates and how to create and use them.

I've found the Test server to be very helpful there - it just takes a few minutes to copy a character across, then all incarnates can be crafted for free and tested fully before you decide on what one(s) you want for live. The only caveat is that you can't unlock your Hybrid slot "from scratch" on test by buying exp with the free merits.

Alpha for me tends to be +Damage (Musculature Core > Musculature Radial = Intuition Radial) unless the character can reliably self-cap damage% buffs (e.g. a Kinetics or Warshade).

Lore pets are very unbalanced mechanically; with all but a few options being "traps". Outside of things like controlled pylon tests, the damage-orientated pets tend to die so quickly that they're ignorable... but the buff pets have varying levels of effectiveness/uptime. Carnival or Seers can permanently buff one ally (e.g. YOU) raising their damage plus either tohit or defence by a decent amount. Clockwork can keep 2-3 allies defence bubbled permanently. Talons and Arachnos have non-permanent-but-still-very-powerful aura buffs that affect large numbers of pets/henchmen. Banished Pantheon actually deal damage to foes whilst remaining intangible. The rest are mostly a mix of poor-uptime buffs/debuffs or heals.

Best Judgement is almost always going to be Void for the -damage debuff; or Pyro for the additional raw damage.

Best Interface is almost always going to be either Degenerative or Reactive (depending on what you're fighting and other available -res debuffs)

Destiny and Hybrid are where the real choices comes in IMO.
+ Ageless Destiny gives either major Defence Debuff Resistance or extra Recovery.
+ Barrier Destiny is a Survivability GodMode button.
+ Clarion Destiny is either permanent mez protection; or nearly-permanent mez protection plus a Power Boost effect.
+ Incandescence Destiny and Rebirth Destiny are more situational, but I've seen both used pretty well.
+ Assault Hybrid is a pure damage output increase; either damage%-buff-based or proc-based.
+ Melee Core Hybrid is another Survivability GodMode button - major damage resistance plus mez protection.
+ Support Core Hybrid (+12% to everything for pets) is almost always going to be the optimal choice for Masterminds/Crabberminds.
+ Control is... also an option, I guess. The Core variant can be useful for Dominators/Controllers, even if it doesn't typically quite parse as well as Assault Radial.

[Riverdusk]

Yeah, I wouldn't call bottom to top a 'dumb layout'.  I think it is more just whatever you are used to.  Most of the games I can think of that I play for things like that (Skyrim pops to mind), do go from bottom to top, so for me it is the layout that made perfect sense.   So, I didn't even think twice about it.   

[Zombra]

2 hours ago, Riverdusk said:

Yeah, I wouldn't call bottom to top a 'dumb layout'.  I think it is more just whatever you are used to.  Most of the games I can think of that I play for things like that (Skyrim pops to mind), do go from bottom to top, so for me it is the layout that made perfect sense.   So, I didn't even think twice about it.   

 

First, City of Heroes level-ups are done top down for power selection, enhancement slotting, etc.  The game itself teaches you to get used to top down for dozens of hours, then changes it for no reason at all.

 

Second, when you open the Skyrim Perk screen, it literally zooms in on the node at the very bottom of the tree.  You have to zoom out to see the rest.  Skyrim teaches you very blatantly that the list starts at the bottom.  Incarnate does nothing like this.

 

I'm not saying that bottom to top is inherently evil, but for the game to assume that all players will assume they should start at the bottom is indeed dumb design.

[arcane]

It’s extremely easy to tell that the system goes from the bottom up because (1) one look at the ingredients required shows that lower tier powers are pre-requisites for higher tier ones and (2) the higher tier powers clearly have superior effects. This narrative that the system is too inaccessible is wild. Ask for 2 minutes of help in game if you need to and boom, done.

[Zombra]

7 hours ago, arcane said:

It’s extremely easy 

 

Factually wrong.  If you were right, then no one would struggle with it; yet I am not the only person who found it confusing.

[GM Crumpet]

1 hour ago, Zombra said:

 

Factually wrong.  If you were right, then no one would struggle with it; yet I am not the only person who found it confusing.

I have to agree with you. Once you know what you are doing then it is, indeed as simple as can be, but for your first one or two characters? It can be very confusing. I was lucky in that I was in an SG at the time (with Goddess Laucianna* before she became the Goddess) who were really helpful. I was all "OK now what?" and they went through it with me in a way I could understand. I still messed up, but that was my fault.

 

*It was so funny, I left the SG after a year to do my own thing and it was only years later when we were chatting that we realised we knew each other from before 🙂 

[biostem]

1 hour ago, Zombra said:

Factually wrong.  If you were right, then no one would struggle with it; yet I am not the only person who found it confusing.

It *is* an easy system, it just isn't clear or intuitive;  What I mean by this is that the actual steps/process to do things like crafting and slotting Incarnate abilities doesn't require any special skills, it just requires knowing what windows to open up and which tabs to go to, with the rest consisting of clicking.  This isn't to diminish any sense of confusion this might entail, only that once you "get it" it can just make you facepalm at how you were just before it "clicked"...

[Zombra]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

It *is* an easy system, it just isn't clear or intuitive;  What I mean by this is that the actual steps/process to do things like crafting and slotting Incarnate abilities doesn't require any special skills, it just requires knowing what windows to open up and which tabs to go to, with the rest consisting of clicking.  This isn't to diminish any sense of confusion this might entail, only that once you "get it" it can just make you facepalm at how you were just before it "clicked"...

 

I mean, sure ... if you put it like that, it's also easy to beat Kasparov at chess.  You just have to move the little pieces around to the right places at the right times.  And those little things are so easy to pick up and move around!  😄

[biostem]

1 hour ago, Zombra said:

I mean, sure ... if you put it like that, it's also easy to beat Kasparov at chess.  You just have to move the little pieces around to the right places at the right times.  And those little things are so easy to pick up and move around!  😄

Sure, but I meant more like reading - once you are literate in a language, it is all but impossible to *not* read anything in that language that is placed in front of you.  Before then, it is literally "Greek to me"...

[tidge]

I can't say it is an easy system. I am familiar with it but simply shuffling between the powers and the component crafting menus is weirdly annoying, even when I know what I am doing. I don't keep notes of which components I want (of each rarity) so the random drops send me scrolling through multiple screens.

 

Mechanically, the lockout time an switching is something I understand, but dislike how occasionally it has to be worked around via zoning.

[biostem]

58 minutes ago, tidge said:

don't keep notes of which components I want

For me, the simplest method is that at each tier, the components have unique 1st letters, so I just remember "I need 2 R1 A's and a R2 B" or something similar...

 

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Incarnate_Component

[arcane]

12 hours ago, Zombra said:

 

Factually wrong.  If you were right, then no one would struggle with it; yet I am not the only person who found it confusing.

I think it’s possible for intelligent people to occasionally struggle with something that is extremely easy and intuitive. Call it a brain fart. I have them too, I meant no disrespect.

[Zombra]

7 hours ago, arcane said:

I think it’s possible for intelligent people to occasionally struggle with something that is extremely easy and intuitive. Call it a brain fart. I have them too, I meant no disrespect.

 

You're still wrong.  This was not an isolated brain fart.  There is a consistent pattern of intelligent people complaining about the bad design of this system (or rather, the UI and framing of the system).  Some people, perhaps many, "get it" quickly and good for them.  That does not mean that it is objectively easy.  No designer should congratulate themselves because "only" 40% of users find their system a huge pain in the ass.

 

I'm not especially interested in your motivations, but you should be aware that I can't find any apparent purpose to your previous post, other than to say that anyone who struggles with the system must be stupid because it is so easy.  So yes, regardless of your intent, that came across as very disrespectful.  Now you know.

 

Edited June 15 by Zombra

[Seed22]

I figured this out when the system out when I was 12 going on 13 whrn incarnates first came out. But I still think the system needs to be streamlined

[Greycat]

On 6/15/2024 at 12:40 AM, biostem said:

It *is* an easy system, it just isn't clear or intuitive;

 

... I think that's the best description.

 

Even in little things like having the Alpha *not obviously* having a threads recipe unless you know to scroll down. Not an uncommon question in Help.