Copyright Question

[Erratic1]

31 minutes ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

 

There's also Squadron Supreme which is Marvel's take on the JLA. But just cuz Marvel did it (and don't even mention Swamp/Man-Thing) doesn't mean we can, or should.

Yes, Hyperion and the rest of the Squadron Supreme, based on the earlier appearance of the Squadron Sinister, were JLA references.

[Erratic1]

36 minutes ago, Excraft said:

 

This has absolutely nothing to do with what I said in my reply.  Again, there is no concrete definition of what "close" means.  Since there isn't a clear definition, it in no way hurts to ask.  What you or I or anyone else considers to be "too close" is irrelevant.  That's up to HC to decide where the line is. 

 

Then we return to what I wrote originally: Avoid being close enough to need to ask and don't be a pedant who can't figure out what is close without a exhaustive set of guidelines.

[ZacKing]

55 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

It's an example of how much difference the 'Big Boys' rope in to make sure their imitations land outside a copyright lawsuit, and provides examples of some of the things that the HC staff has to consider when judging the acceptability of an homage character.

 

Sometimes the big boys are just flagrantly giving each other the finger too lol.

 

[Scarlet Shocker]

11 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

 

Sometimes the big boys are just flagrantly giving each other the finger too lol.

 

 

they have expensive lawyers who will say it's "a tribute"

 

HC doesn't have that kind of clout.

[ZacKing]

4 minutes ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

they have expensive lawyers who will say it's "a tribute"

 

HC doesn't have that kind of clout.

 

Who said they did?  Nobody said anything even remotely close to this, nor did anyone suggest that people should be allowed to break the rules and make whatever copycat character they want.  No idea where you got that idea from.

 

Maybe you missed my earlier post -

Quote

As to the topic, you should send a PM to a GM with screenshots and include character name and bio.  It's HC's call to make, not anyone here.

 

[lemming]

9 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

Sometimes the big boys are just flagrantly giving each other the finger too lol.

Those are both Byrne iirc and I think there's quite the history of doing alt versions of covers.

 

There's homage, and then there's rip off.    There's also agreements between two entities where the lines are.  And it can be who has the bigger lawyers, so smaller entities have to be more careful.

 

In any case, here it's all about not trying to push to the line.    The more removed from the inspiration, the less the chance of being generic.  I've only had two so far done in.

[TheMoneyMaker]

9 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

I have never understood why people want to clone something borderline when they can make something unique, exciting and control their creation's back story.

 

Ask every Hollywood director that makes a movie based on an existing IP

[Excraft]

1 hour ago, Erratic1 said:

Then we return to what I wrote originally: Avoid being close enough to need to ask and don't be a pedant who can't figure out what is close without a exhaustive set of guidelines.

 

How you define "close enough" is going to be different than the next person.  Are you suggesting people shouldn't be allowed to PM a GM and ask?  How are they to know what HC will consider "too close" unless they ask?  Again, what you or I or anyone else considers to be "too close" is irrelevant.  It's up to HC to make that call, and a player being concerned and asking a GM isn't a problem in my opinion. 

[Excraft]

1 hour ago, lemming said:

Those are both Byrne iirc and I think there's quite the history of doing alt versions of covers.

 

Yes those are both from Byrne and he's definitely doing it to give Marvel and DC the finger.   He had a lot of issues working for both.

[Scarlet Shocker]

1 hour ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

Ask every Hollywood director that makes a movie based on an existing IP

 

Ridiculous, specious point. Profit is their motive rather than imagination!

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, Excraft said:

 

How you define "close enough" is going to be different than the next person.  Are you suggesting people shouldn't be allowed to PM a GM and ask?  How are they to know what HC will consider "too close" unless they ask?  Again, what you or I or anyone else considers to be "too close" is irrelevant.  It's up to HC to make that call, and a player being concerned and asking a GM isn't a problem in my opinion. 

 

You are relentlessly missing the point. You DO NOT have to consider too close if your goal is avoiding similarity.

 

I do not want to be exposed to radiation, so instead of asking how close to Chernobyl I can go, I make no plans to go anywhere where the question would come up. 

 

My signature Brute is a super strong, super tough character...from Argentina...who doesn't fly...whose costume colors are those of the Argentine flag. I don't have to ask how close he is to Superman as there is nothing beyond strength and toughness (hideously common when speaking of super heroes) that he shares. Any story involving the problems of being a superhero, the duty, personal interactions, etc work with him because the question isn't, "last of his race", "rocks from home are deadly", "can I mate with my cousin to save the race", etc.

 

That is what staying in the realm of, "You don't have to ask" means.

[TheMoneyMaker]

1 hour ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

 

Ridiculous, specious point. Profit is their motive rather than imagination!

Yeah but why do they want to play with someone else's ideas rather than create their own?

 

Profit is up there, especially if the IP is popular.  But then why do they make so many changes from the original source material?  If I had to hazard a guess, once a director gets a studio project, they either love it or don't care at all about it but/and feel like they could do better at representing the story and characters.  Maybe some of it is heavy-handed studio execs putting their own dictates in the mix, but same it's the same. They want to see the thing they like but they want to see it represented their way so they play with someone else's ideas rather than make something new and original.

[Scarlet Shocker]

48 minutes ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

Yeah but why do they want to play with someone else's ideas rather than create their own?

 

Profit is up there, especially if the IP is popular.  But then why do they make so many changes from the original source material?  If I had to hazard a guess, once a director gets a studio project, they either love it or don't care at all about it but/and feel like they could do better at representing the story and characters.  Maybe some of it is heavy-handed studio execs putting their own dictates in the mix, but same it's the same. They want to see the thing they like but they want to see it represented their way so they play with someone else's ideas rather than make something new and original.

 

 

a) you are completely derailing this thread with something irrelevant to the subject at hand

 

b) I'm not interested or responsible for what happens in Hollywood or the wider movie industry. They pay fortunes to decide what will play well for an audience.

 

c) in City of Heroes, the audience is largely the creator of the toon. I don't think there is a single person in the known universe who gives a shit about Scarlet Shocker's back story, aside from me.

 

TL;DR - Hollywood produces shit for mass markets to make money. Gamers play their own fantasies within an environment. Apples and Oranges

[Excraft]

2 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

You are relentlessly missing the point. You DO NOT have to consider too close if your goal is avoiding similarity.

 

Well no, I'm not missing your point.  There are those out there who may look at your character and find it to be derivative and "too similar" to a trademarked character.  You may feel it isn't close at all.  What you all think is irrelevant.  It's up to HC to decide and their call to make.  There's no harm in asking a GM for help.

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

On 6/30/2024 at 7:38 PM, moonligh7er said:

TLDR;  I can DM a GM costume screens and details; I have a question about if it would be taken down for trademark concerns.

 

I don't speak for any other GM, but if you PM me a costume and name I will not comment one way or the other. 

 

If someone sees your character and lodges a complaint one of the GMs will take a look and make the judgment call.  Sometimes we will do a little research to compare your character to existing IP and sometimes we consult each other to get second opinions.  There is copying, there is homage, and there is parody.  The closer the name, costume, bio, and powers match the existing IP, the more likely you are to lose the name and/or costume and/or Bio.  You never lose the powers and the character for an IP violation . . . unless maybe you keep resetting it . . . 

[UltraAlt]

2 hours ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

I don't speak for any other GM, but if you PM me a costume and name I will not comment one way or the other. 

 

If someone forwards you a costume and a name that would break the Code of Conduct, I would as assume as a GM you would be responsible for enforcing the Code of Conduct.

You don't have to comment on it, but I'm assuming you should enforce the Code of Conduct regardless of who brings up that breach of the Code of Conduct to you.

 

But that is just me assuming that the GMs are responsible for protecting the game we love the same way that the rest of us are responsible to report potential copyright violations in order to protect the game we love.

 

However, I may be mistaken.

[kelika2]

2 hours ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

I don't speak for any other GM, but if you PM me a costume and name I will not comment one way or the other.

Hey I got a question about when you do inspect someone:

Can you change someones costume slot?  I asked because one day I logged out with costume1, but the next morning I was in costume2.  No substances used before, during or after on my end.

And does inspecting them reset their "last logged on" number?  for like 3 or 4 days in a row a few years ago one character kept saying 0 days offline even tho i did not touch it.  it was JUST one character

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

6 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

You don't have to comment on it, but I'm assuming you should enforce the Code of Conduct regardless of who brings up that breach of the Code of Conduct to you.

 

My point was that I don't give advisory opinions.  "Is this OK?"  "How about now?"  "What if I change this letter or that color?"  Googly don't play that.

 

6 hours ago, kelika2 said:

Can you change someones costume slot? 

 

I can make any or all costumes "generic" but I don't think I can force a costume change.  Someone with greater knowledge or higher level GM powers might be able to.  I honestly don't know.

[TheMoneyMaker]

15 hours ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

Yeah but why do they want to play with someone else's ideas rather than create their own?

 

Profit is up there, especially if the IP is popular.  But then why do they make so many changes from the original source material?  If I had to hazard a guess, once a director gets a studio project, they either love it or don't care at all about it but/and feel like they could do better at representing the story and characters.  Maybe some of it is heavy-handed studio execs putting their own dictates in the mix, but same it's the same. They want to see the thing they like but they want to see it represented their way so they play with someone else's ideas rather than make something new and original.

 

You're the one who said "I have never understood why people want to clone something borderline when they can make something unique, exciting and control their creation's back story."  Ignoring the profit of movies in general, I was just offering possible alternative insight into why people might want to clone something borderline when they could make something unique.  Don't make statements like that if you don't want to discuss them.

[UltraAlt]

44 minutes ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

My point was that I don't give advisory opinions.  "Is this OK?"  "How about now?"  "What if I change this letter or that color?"  Googly don't play that.

 

that make perfect sense.

The line has to be unclear or some people will toe the line as much as they think they can get away with. (I'm sure that goes on ... far too often ... already)

 

 

[moonligh7er]

On 7/1/2024 at 5:02 AM, Scarlet Shocker said:

These threads always make me sad.

 

We have so many different archetypes, power sets. and costume pieces it's incredibly easy to come up with an original character that won't infringe any copyright and stands alone by itself - regardless of the fact that some powers are similar to existing comic book characters.

 

There are plenty of legends out there that lend their powers to superhero tales as well. Robin Hood, Dick Turpin, Sinbad, Gilgamesh and Perseus could all easily be reinvented for Paragon City with very little work and there could be no infringement there.

 

I have never understood why people want to clone something borderline when they can make something unique, exciting and control their creation's back story.

 

 

It's not just one or the other, or I'd go play their games (I do). You've never wanted to make your own character within a pre-existing universe, or wanted your character to fight an existing one? Must not be a fan of anything? Or, you've never wanted to mix superheroes into a universe that doesn't have them, like Superman vs Predator? What about fights (for me it's Scarlet Witch vs Legion) that Marvel or somebody just refuses to give you? I'm getting the tattoo, too. That's my middle finger to them for denying me that. Like Star Wars got an emo boy but still no 3-sectional lightsaber? Pff. Made that myself too.

Edited July 2 by moonligh7er

[Scarlet Shocker]

2 hours ago, moonligh7er said:

It's not just one or the other, or I'd go play their games (I do). You've never wanted to make your own character within a pre-existing universe, or wanted your character to fight an existing one? Must not be a fan of anything? Or, you've never wanted to mix superheroes into a universe that doesn't have them, like Superman vs Predator? What about fights (for me it's Scarlet Witch vs Legion) that Marvel or somebody just refuses to give you? I'm getting the tattoo, too. That's my middle finger to them for denying me that. Like Star Wars got an emo boy but still no 3-sectional lightsaber? Pff. Made that myself too.

 

I am very unsure what your point is here.

 

I make my own characters in a pre-existing universe here. Scarlet Shocker exists in Paragon City but there is also an iteration of her in The Secret World. (Although she's different there for obvious reasons.)

 

Would I make Capt John Sheridan in Star Trek Online? Absolutely not, and Batman has done battle with Predator so I'm not sure that particular crossover analogy works well.

 

I'm not naturally a fan of crossovers - I always find their denouement to be exceedingly dull because for the most part all the protagonists have to come out smiling and happy, which is dull,  because almost nothing has changed in either universe.

 

I don't feel it necessary to give anyone a finger, v, middle or otherwise, when they are providing content to entertain me. I am not so entitled that I expect them to think I have some right for them to provide me with a thing that isn't part of their thing.

[Sanguinesun]

On 7/1/2024 at 8:38 AM, moonligh7er said:

TLDR;  I can DM a GM costume screens and details; I have a question about if it would be taken down for trademark concerns.

So if I made a character and/or story that includes characters/groups that are similar to copyright characters/groups insofar as for example Homelander is similar to Superman (or the Honorees are to zombie Superman) or... many Marvel and DC characters are to their corresponding archetypal characters in the other universe (eg Green Arrow and Hawkeye, Flash and Quicksilver, Atom and Ant-Man... and then ofc every Watchmen character is a rip-off although generally imo more interesting and relevant, which I would call transformative--but not the point and I'll digress on that point).

Sometimes the overlap is due to universal, even Jungian archetypes, sometimes it's due to the pragmatic use of deeply-engrained cultural icons especially with transformative use and all it's added value (eg the sort of reality check that Homelander introduces borrowing the icon that is Superman the same as the game and everyone as far as I know borrows laser eyes from Superman, although the Comet had them as early as '39 where Superman debuted the power in 60-something despite it's first issue being published before the Comet), sometimes both writers are making new characters based on the same older idea (eg Robin Hood) that neither of them came up with, and although I like to think there's the least incidence of this, sometimes due to lack of originality.

Marvel's Asgards, for that matter Stargate's Asgards and all it's alien species, and the Predator franchise all draw from the Annunaki sort of trope about ancient gods really being advanced alien species. Predator just adds another trope about alien species that hunt the galaxy, which the Hirogen from Star Trek are basically... uh, are, basically. This is the general realm that I'm in.

DC and Marvel aren't suing eachother so far as I know, so if it's safe insofar as copyright law, is it probably safe in game?

Likenesses may be similar but with some significant changes
Powers, weapons may be similar
Names may take one single part of the name, be the name backward, or be an anagram of the name or part of it (eg Nimlael=I Am Enlil, Thomas Marvelo Riddle=I am Lord Voldemort)
Characters relationships, storyline may be similar but with changes and original content
No direct references are made eg franchise names, species, factions, character names, etc. Edit: I just realized that I was using, "Space Marines," and just now found out that that's trademarked by the folks who made Warhammer? Which poses an interesting question: (I don't mind changing the name, buttt) That's safe, right? Because the TM only protects the term in the context of the Warhammer universe (it's too generic a term to be generally enforceable, especially since we'll have space marines soon enough... that's not a political reference in the slightest).

It's not as much of a copyright concern as General Hammond or the Oranbega portals. Further than that, if round gates that produce wormholes are considered to fall under the umbrella of the Stargate copyright, then yes I'm screwed. But that's not the case, I'm still uncertain lol.

I know we're avoiding too much guidance and loopholes, but what do we think? I don't wanna call out the specific franchise/s that could from one perspective be said to bear a striking resemblance to my works, for obvious reasons, but I can DM a GM costume screens and details. Appreciate anyone who read that lol

 

Use common sense. Otherwise if you fork around, you're gonna find out.

[ZacKing]

4 hours ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

My point was that I don't give advisory opinions.  "Is this OK?"  "How about now?"  "What if I change this letter or that color?"  Googly don't play that.

 

This makes perfect sense, thanks.

4 hours ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

I can make any or all costumes "generic" but I don't think I can force a costume change.

 

Might want to start with this guy lol 🤣

 

 

Edited July 2 by ZacKing

[Haijinx]

Here we go again ...