Focused Feedback: Marine Affinity

[Wavicle]

Maybe some mez resistance on Power of the Depths.

[BrandX]

58 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

 

Dark, time, and radiation all have solid defense and/or tohit debuff which means mez are much less likely to hit in the first place.  Radiation also has solid mez resistance which is what I was saying would be a nice addition. 

 

Turn Wellspring into a toggle, slap on Sleep Resist...to be like Arctic Mist and Steamy Mist?

[MirrorDarkly]

Wellspring is one of the strongest powers in the set, if not the strongest.  I would think turning it into a toggle would make the mez issue worse not better unless it also gained extremely robust mez protection as part of the deal, which seems unlikely.  

[MagicalAct]

In my testing as a Marine/Water defender the set is strong solo, and great for long fights AV/GM/Raids but on higher level mish teams I could see it end up as basically the new Traps. The powers don't have super long animations but you have enough that you want to do at the start of a fight that it'd be over before you get everything out you wanted.

 

Whitecap I wish was a location targeted AoE. Making it location targeted would allow for more open ended play, like landing in front to push the mobs into a corner while still debuffing them. Or while not a probable option due to it's recharge, in fights that go south it could be used as a disengage tool.

 

The other major gripe I have with the set is the tier 9. It's a good effect but for how cool the animation is and the work that went into it, it's just a buff. 

I'd like to see a small knock back effect around the caster upon activation to simulate the rising of the tentacles from the depths and knocking back whatever was in their way.

Edited July 13 by MagicalAct
Incorrect power description

[tricon]

1 hour ago, MagicalAct said:

In my testing as a Marine/Water defender the set is strong solo, and great for long fights AV/GM/Raids but on higher level mish teams I could see it end up as basically the new Traps. The powers don't have super long animations but you have enough that you want to do at the start of a fight that it'd be over before you get everything out you wanted.

 

Whitecap I wish was a location targeted AoE. The way it currently is, it has to be slotted with KB to KD as landing in the middle of a mob scatters them to the four corners of the earth. Making it location targeted would allow for more open ended play, like landing in front to push the mobs into a corner while still debuffing them. Or while not a probable option due to it's recharge, in fights that go south it could be used as a disengage tool.

 

The other major gripe I have with the set is the tier 9. It's a good effect but for how cool the animation is and the work that went into it, it's just a buff. 

I'd like to see a small knock back effect around the caster upon activation to simulate the rising of the tentacles from the depths and knocking back whatever was in their way.

 

 

Huh, whitecap is a knockdown power, not a knockback. Did you fight mobs below your lvl or increased the effect?

 

 

 

 

[MagicalAct]

33 minutes ago, tricon said:

 

 

Huh, whitecap is a knockdown power, not a knockback. Did you fight mobs below your lvl or increased the effect?

 

 

 

 

Yup, that was entirely my fault. Must have hit auto enhance without realizing it along the way. Will edit my previous post.

[tricon]

47 minutes ago, MagicalAct said:

Yup, that was entirely my fault. Must have hit auto enhance without realizing it along the way. Will edit my previous post.

 

No problerm, happens to us all.

 

 

 

One note for the devs, please increase the accuracy of the pseudeo pet of Tide Pool.  Tested a lvl 20 vs lvl 20/21 mobs and the and I am of the opinion that a lot is lost when dolphins hit so badly.

 

 

One lvl 20 acc IO and a +kismet increased the chance of my attackpowers so far that I have a good hit rate

 

Quote

HIT Mutate Gunner! Your Ball Lightning power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 65.01.

HIT Mutate Brawler! Your Whitecap Crash power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 14.69.

 

now compare this with 2 lvl 20 acc IOs vs +1 (the mission was set at 0 standard)

 

Quote

Tide Pool:  MISSED Mutate Gunner!! Your Rough Waters power had a 79.40% chance to hit, you rolled a 90.98.

Tide Pool:  MISSED Anathema!! Your Rough Waters power had a 79.40% chance to hit, you rolled a 96.25.

 

without any kind of acc in the power is

 

Quote

Tide Pool:  MISSED Mutate Gunner!! Your Rough Waters power had a 65.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 72.38.

Tide Pool:  MISSED Anathema!! Your Rough Waters power had a 65.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 65.94.

 

If you play even in a team it will get worse with a higher lvl enemys.

 

The power effect is very useful early on and It would be really nice if you could exploit the ability right from the start, when you get access to the power.

 

[Tacheyon]

On 7/10/2024 at 9:14 PM, MirrorDarkly said:

Shifting Tides.

 

When I first tried this power on my defender (solo) I was not impressed.  I was getting between 3-4 stacks per fight for something like +9-12% damage, +3-4.5% to hit and +7.5-10% recharge and extra attack was going off at most once per fight.  Since it's not a cheep power to run it was a real toss up as to if that was worth the end and time to manage.

 

Then I tried it on my MM, and it's a completely different experience!  I put it on my Bruiser, forget about it and my bar fills with stacks with the extra damage happening every few second.

 

The way I think it works is that every time a friendly character or pet uses any power within Shifting Tides radius everyone gets a stack.  These stacks last for 8 seconds and do not refresh existing stacks, so your ability to stack it depends on how many actions you and everyone else in it takes in 8 seconds.  I'm not sure there is a limit to the number of stacks it can generate but only 10 seem to count at any one time.  With my defender values that's +30% damage, +15% to hit and +25% recharge to everyone near the target at max stacks.  The attack part of it also has a higher chance to proc the more people in the area but I'm almost certain there is some sort of lock out where it can only happen once every N seconds.

 

In a group I feel this is a core power of the set but solo it's very marginal.

 

Finally it does take melee damage procs but even on my MM I'd almost never see them go off, maybe once every 3rd fight.  The one exception I found was Gaussian's Chance for Build Up, which happened so often on my MM that it wasn't uncommon to have it double stacked.  Now on a MM that doesn't mean a whole lot but it might be worth exploring on say a corruptor that mostly runs with full groups. 

 

 

 

I agree that a lot of MM's with a Melee Pet is going to get a lot of action out of this power.  But I was trying out Gaussian's Build up in the power and never saw it proc once on myself or my pets.  I was trying out a Thugs MM and using Shifting on my Bruiser, I got the Shifting stacks so I know it was working, just nothing else (all other powers were empty except shifting).

 

Not sure if I was doing something wrong or if my Bruiser wasn't getting enough attacks in before my other Thugs defeated them.

EDIT: I was just blind.  It is working!

Edited July 13 by Tacheyon

[MirrorDarkly]

2 hours ago, Tacheyon said:

 

I agree that a lot of MM's with a Melee Pet is going to get a lot of action out of this power.  But I was trying out Gaussian's Build up in the power and never saw it proc once on myself or my pets.  I was trying out a Thugs MM and using Shifting on my Bruiser, I got the Shifting stacks so I know it was working, just nothing else (all other powers were empty except shifting).

 

Not sure if I was doing something wrong or if my Bruiser wasn't getting enough attacks in before my other Thugs defeated them.

 

Humm, not sure?  Here is a short vid of me fighting with the build up proc in Shifting, maybe you can see something we're doing different. 

 

I got mezed at the start of the fight so the toggle dropped. When I reactivated Shifting Tides within a second or two Gaussian proced, dropped of then proced twice more to double stack all within 21 seconds.   For this test I had two end reducers and the the Build Up proc is Shifting Tides.  

 

 

[Tacheyon]

3 hours ago, MirrorDarkly said:

 

Humm, not sure?  Here is a short vid of me fighting with the build up proc in Shifting, maybe you can see something we're doing different. 

 

I got mezed at the start of the fight so the toggle dropped. When I reactivated Shifting Tides within a second or two Gaussian proced, dropped of then proced twice more to double stack all within 21 seconds.   For this test I had two end reducers and the the Build Up proc is Shifting Tides.  

 

 

 

Oh...silly me I was looking at my Minions thinking it proc'd on them, not just me.  My Bad.  Thank you for the clarification.

 

But this will be great for Necro and Beasts since you take more personal attacks to spawn wraiths and build Pack Mentality.

[ExeErdna]

6 minutes ago, Tacheyon said:

 

Oh...silly me I was looking at my Minions thinking it proc'd on them, not just me.  My Bad.  Thank you for the clarification.

 

But this will be great for Necro and Beasts since you take more personal attacks to spawn wraiths and build Pack Mentality.

It's very consistent on Beasts, I learned to not put Shifting Tides on Alpha or Dire Wolf as they wouldn't get into the groups consistently like the others.  I really want to test this on Necro now to see if it can solo Scrapyard 

[BrandX]

Okay, with the longer duration of Barrier Reef, liking it.  Wondering if Toroidal Bubble can get the same duration?

 

Not sure about the t9 if it needs it, but then it would seem to be a less used power ?  Maybe it's meant to be used before big targets/groups rather than constant?

 

That said, would still be nice for Toroidal Bubble .  At least for the resists.  

[MirrorDarkly]

Love these new changes!  I think the new synergies will help immensely, and thank you for Barrier Reef. 😄

 

Also someone upthread mentioned Fire Control with this set.  I finally got around to trying it and... I mean.... just.... it's...  just so very.... 

I didn't feel like I was fighting so much as  standing in the middle of a rolling apocalypse.

 

 

[ExeErdna]

1 hour ago, BrandX said:

Okay, with the longer duration of Barrier Reef, liking it.  Wondering if Toroidal Bubble can get the same duration?

 

Not sure about the t9 if it needs it, but then it would seem to be a less used power ?  Maybe it's meant to be used before big targets/groups rather than constant?

 

That said, would still be nice for Toroidal Bubble .  At least for the resists.  

I normally use the t9 before whitecap-ing into a group to prevent my pets from getting nuked yet I do really like that whitecap itself procs the Tide Pool effect now. I just need to find a way to put Shoal Rush back in. What I noticed I don't use much is the heal because Barrier Reef is good. So I'm seeing some end-game builds might skip Soothing Waves to put points elsewhere.

[WumpusRat]

After playing with it for a bit, I definitely think Soothing Wave could stand being a pbaoe instead of a cone. Since almost every other power in the set is either radiating from you, from an enemy, a placeable, or putting you into the midst of melee (Whitecap), making the heal radiate outwards from you makes a lot more sense than having it as a cone. Having to constantly jump back and forth as a support set makes it a bit clunky, particularly as a mastermind with melee pets. You want to be in the mix with your pets so you can use Whitecap for debuffing and mitigation via knockdown, and having to look around to figure out where your pets are, then back up to line up the cone, then jump back into melee feels awkward.

 

 

[tricon]

Some quick notes, need to respec later.

 

The slower decaying part and lower recharge time + added acc for the set are some good changes.

 

Barrier Reef looping sound is still annoying if you are standing close to it, fortunately, the sound drops off very quickly when you move away.

 

Torodial Bubble is a bit odd in the sense that I that I use it more often although it is not stacking because I lost track of it, if it's needs a recast. 

 

Procs Performance Shifter: +Chance for Endurance & Power Transfer: Chance to Heal Self don't fire off if you use them in Torodial Bubble. In Power of the Depths Panica and Performance Shifter both fire of then you cast the power. To bad the don't recast even with the decay going on.

 

I still think the T9 needs a bit more. Maybe add some regen resist to it, not that it's helping that much, but it can stack in a team..... 

 

Some asked for some mez protection but I don't think this set should have some permament protection but why not add some kind of Inner Will (Blaster/Martial Combat::t

Inner Will cancels any status effects currently affecting you

 Considering that it would effect the whole team and only once per cast, it seems not overpowerd per se but would add some unique aspect to it

 

 

Edited July 14 by tricon

[Shin Magmus]

     I appreciate the changes to Shoal Rush becoming a better Slow if people need one, Whitecap -res durations being standardized, and **Barrier Reef** (win) not needing to be resummoned quite so often.  The set feels better to play at least.  I think that even with the changes, a lot of people will skip Shoal Rush because it basically demands a lot of slots (and a lot of procs) to still be very useful: but certain solo Defenders and Corruptors will take it just to make it more feasible to use a combo like Rain of Fire + Tar Patch to prevent enemies from leaving: that combo is now Rain of Fire + Tide Pool + Shoal Rush.  Realistically, it feels like enemies can't get away which is how it should work.

[BrandX]

3 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

     I appreciate the changes to Shoal Rush becoming a better Slow if people need one, Whitecap -res durations being standardized, and **Barrier Reef** (win) not needing to be resummoned quite so often.  The set feels better to play at least.  I think that even with the changes, a lot of people will skip Shoal Rush because it basically demands a lot of slots (and a lot of procs) to still be very useful: but certain solo Defenders and Corruptors will take it just to make it more feasible to use a combo like Rain of Fire + Tar Patch to prevent enemies from leaving: that combo is now Rain of Fire + Tide Pool + Shoal Rush.  Realistically, it feels like enemies can't get away which is how it should work.

 

I was wondering if I was going to want to keep Shoal Rush on a live build.  

[Awilix]

 Shoal Rush feels a little more satisfying to use now that it causes the little crazy fish freakout in tide pool. It's a step closer to making me feel like I have more 'active' abilities, though the randomness of the effect makes it hard to intelligently use in any way. The slow seems effective, though even with some explicitly focused experimentation I couldn't find a place where it had a measurable effect compared to Tide Pool's autohit non-aggroing giant patch. It was either one or the other and Tide Pool was always the better choice; it seems like unnecessary double dipping for a debuff that doesn't meaningfully stack when some more active mez-or-adjacent effect might be good here. That said, the frenzy burst is that effect, so it seems like fair design.
 Whitecap has the same improvement and complaint, but! The reduction in recharge actually seems to have a far greater effect on moment to moment play. Whenever I need something to do to break up an unexpected group or danger, Whitecap is often recharged and allows me to boop them and fleetingly knock them over for another second of safety.
 Brine surely has some mechanical differences if you're comparing numbers for fighting AVs, but it 'feels' as underwhelming to use as it did before. It could use a little tide bool frenzy burst itself.
 Shifting Tides seems to stack a little higher and have a more measurable effect, making more inclined to actually use the power. It seems like the range could be increased; I tested on a crey map and it was extremely noticeable that shifting tides turned off every time I used one of the excessive elevators. It seems like a struggle to keep this power actually active. Speaking of:
 Barrier Reef is a much less annoying little buddy. The design notes make the power's FFG structure 'make sense' more to me, but they also highlight how equally annoying the generator that it is inspired by functions. I still don't see why (both) of these powers can't be permanently summoned considering their low recharge, but it is at least consistently annoying with other design in the game. Though unlike the force field generator, this is often a good place to put shifting tides which only increases the 'set up' when it expires and you have to fiddle with both powers. Playing with him as my main source of shifting tides on that crey map, losing the toggle every time he dropped or went through an elevator, was constantly irking.
 Power of the Depths still feels bad to use. I recognize that this is a nebulous complaint, but clicking on that big fancy tier nine and watching my endurance go down (because my maximum increased) and no other noticeable effect happen has very unsatisfying 'game feel.'

The set feels a little bit more active and responsive, but the additional effects are very 'random.' It's now more possible for me to react to unexpected aggro or attention but it's a coin flip as to whether or or not it actually does anything. I still seem to be constantly immobilized or harder mezzed, but very slightly less often with the defensive buff, my ability to spam whitecap, and being able to randomly spurt frenzy knockdown. The tide pool effect feels a lot more like an annoying necessity I have to struggle with trying to use to defend myself than a fun little bonus like storm cell.

As the set is already so close to 'feeling' good, I'd only suggest either giving Shoal Rush some active effect or really embracing the frenzy idea. Give Brine a frenzy pop and maybe give Depths a giant 'churn' effect that causes a super frenzy that guarantees lots of knockdown. Depths would feel more satisfying to use inside combat and would synergize with the out-of-place melee-centric whitecap ability.
Considering that frenzy is already easy but unpredictable to activate in groups and Shoal's low recharge with frenzy burst, this might not(?) meaningfully change the balance of the set. But it will feel a lot more satisfying and like I am 'in control' to be able to intentionally inflict this attempted KD or watch something happen when I play Depths and it dramatically churns up the pool. Unlike Storm Cell, the Tide Pool power is in a support set, so it feels fair to expect more predictable support. Especially considering the very active and dangerous playstyle of the set.

[mistagoat]

Played 1-14 last night with a buddy. He was Archery/Marine Corr, I was Beast/Marine MM. Street sweeping to 5 and then +2 Hollows to Frostfire.

 

-We both took Soothing as our fist Marine power and were very happy with it. I wouldn't typically enjoy a cone heal but this one also hits the caster and  enemies caught in it take a damage debuff so thumbs up from me!  The debuff wasn't huge but every little bit helps.

-Then we both took Toroidal, love this power! When we stacked them we had 55+ s/l resist al lvl 7.. If they didn't get stacked we were around %30 each, still not too shabby but not the near invincibility of 55+ at that level.. This allowed us to play pretty aggressively. Oh and it's perma out of the box, love it!

-Whitecap is freekin awesome! I'm fine with the tp to enemy it currently has but a tp to location would absolutely be preferable just for the additional flexibility it brings. I need a tank armor set that incorporates this power with better damage!!

 

That's all the Marine powers we tested so far. At this point we jump leveled up to 20 and will start there tomorrow with a couple more Marine powers to test. So far we've having fun and the powers we've messed with have felt impactful and useful. I think my buddy's gonna swap to a defender with a pbaoe nuke in it's blast set to make use of the whitecap nuke delivery system. That sounds like fun, wonder if it's better on a Def or a Corr.

 

[ExeErdna]

3 hours ago, BrandX said:

 

I was wondering if I was going to want to keep Shoal Rush on a live build.  

 

What I'm realizing due to they both proc the frenzy of Tide Pool I'm thinking builds might think either Shoal or Whitecap yet not both in most cases. Like if you're comfortable being in the middle of the mess take Whitecap. If you rather hang back and cast take Shoal. With my Fire/Marine compared to my Symphony/Marine. Fire wants you right there, there's no need for a slow there's so much KD at times they're basically held. Now with Symphony lacking PBAOE and a melee pet. You want Shoal you proc that frenzy from afar.

[BrandX]

1 hour ago, ExeErdna said:

 

What I'm realizing due to they both proc the frenzy of Tide Pool I'm thinking builds might think either Shoal or Whitecap yet not both in most cases. Like if you're comfortable being in the middle of the mess take Whitecap. If you rather hang back and cast take Shoal. With my Fire/Marine compared to my Symphony/Marine. Fire wants you right there, there's no need for a slow there's so much KD at times they're basically held. Now with Symphony lacking PBAOE and a melee pet. You want Shoal you proc that frenzy from afar.

 

The Frenzy Proc is only 6s, I was thinking it was more a matter of being a nice extra than gotta keep it going.  Also, Whitecap has the -Resist you're going to want.  Which is why I was thinking skipping Shoal, with only thinking that it's -Defense able to slot a -Resist Proc

 

I plan to try Marine/Water to see if I want to replace my Cold/Water when it goes live.  Water is pretty much range, but feel I'm going to want Whitecap for that -Resist.  

[ExeErdna]

19 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

The Frenzy Proc is only 6s, I was thinking it was more a matter of being a nice extra than gotta keep it going.  Also, Whitecap has the -Resist you're going to want.  Which is why I was thinking skipping Shoal, with only thinking that it's -Defense able to slot a -Resist Proc

 

I plan to try Marine/Water to see if I want to replace my Cold/Water when it goes live.  Water is pretty much range, but feel I'm going to want Whitecap for that -Resist.  

Yeah, that was honestly my whole logic with it, Whitecap just flows better since I'm going to make a fire/marine when it goes live. I want to give Shoal some shine since they did fix it A LOT yet for most builds it really doesn't fit for the level it's at. Yet grabbing AFTER you get Tide Pool sure yet never before that point imo.

[MirrorDarkly]

27 minutes ago, ExeErdna said:

Yeah, that was honestly my whole logic with it, Whitecap just flows better since I'm going to make a fire/marine when it goes live. I want to give Shoal some shine since they did fix it A LOT yet for most builds it really doesn't fit for the level it's at. Yet grabbing AFTER you get Tide Pool sure yet never before that point imo.

 

If you're willing to load it up with procs you can do so pretty much as soon as they become available (three starting at level 7).  It's one of the few AoE powers with an accuracy bonus which makes it a very good proc mule.  I doubt that was the intent but it is what it is...

 

Now having said that I agree Whitecap is the much more valuable power if you are choosing between them.  

[TygerDarkstorm]

I know there were some folks curious about Marine paired with Necro and all I gotta say is: Do it. I'm a meh to average player and am testing it at level 41 with basic IOs (running the new Ashling Corlett arc at the same time). I can't speak to the in depth numbers stuff many of you other folks can, but for an average player using this set, it feels really good with necro.

 

My biggest complaint so far is that Shifting Tides has to be recast on one of my henchmen every time we move through an elevator (which is a lot so far on the Corlett arc). And just sort of playing by feel; I can't tell if Brine is doing anything to make the harder Crey targets in this arc feel easier to defeat. Also, Tide Pool is still lacking a proper animation both in the character create screen and in game which is a minor annoyance when you're casting and getting your stuff set up.

 

Toroidal Bubble is really great for helping to keep end from tanking, even on an active MM using personal attacks, epic abilities, and my secondary. I rarely had to pop blues to keep the action going. I don't fully understand the complaint about the T9 as it's very similar to Nature's T9, which is a huge fancy animation for a big buff.

 

I've only had 1 death at 0/x3 (starting small since I am still feeling this pairing out) in the second missing of Corlett's arc, and that was due to a player error. I failed to pull a spawn around a corner to take them on as the one PP had hot feet running so even with spamming my henchmen to follow me, they had no choice but to run about wildly and pull other groups. Considering I almost survived this failed attempt utilizing things like the debuffs and frenzy mechanic, I am sure a more talented player would have been able to come out ahead (I mean, assuming they pulled my whoopsie and didn't pull the spawn properly in the first place).

 

Marine definitely wants you to be able to preset up things like Tide Pool and buff up before you jump into the melee, which makes things like spawns right behind doors a bit like "oh shit let's get it running lol." I'm not sure if Stealth would help with that.

 

Overall though, I'm finding this pairing of Necro/Marine to be fun, sturdy, and powerful feeling. The second mission of Corlett's arc warns you the mobs will be tougher than a normal mission and other than my whoopsie engagement, my zombies powered right through the mobs. There was even a point where they all went down to a tough PP, but I was able to resummon and rebuff and finish the fight like it never happened.

 

I'm undecided about keeping brine, but feel like Shoal may be worth it as an MM since it can be procced and the debuffs can help the henchies combat the lower damage they face due to level shifts. Not to mention proc'ing frenzy providing them with some needed mitigation.