Devs Stance on PvP and Balance of the Game?

[Replacement]

So Switchfade's interpretation is probably the correct one - that PvP tipped the scales in their decision of introducing travel suppression.

 

But it was being discussed before then.

 

Did anyone else ever read Jack's blog/dev posts back in the early days, before the game was actually built? I've been thinking about them a lot recently. It's where I first learned the term "tankmage." Anyway, I'm pretty sure he mentioned their apprehension towards "jousting" in one of those.

 

That said, they waited a long time to pull the trigger on it... So if the boot fits...

 

But as to Solarverse' actual question: you're safe. As someone else mentioned, all of your beefs were about pre-i13 decisions. i13 was them righting the ship, taking their licks, and moving on.

[THEDarkTyger]

So Switchfade's interpretation is probably the correct one - that PvP tipped the scales in their decision of introducing travel suppression.

 

At best I'd say it was a "straw that broke the camel's back" issue. Far from the primary reason, and likely would have happened eventually without it.

 

And some of y'all keep missing the point. It wasn't a matter of whether jousting or kiting were efficient. It's that they were inappropriately SAFE. And only safe because of a weakness in the AI that couldn't be rectified without hurting legit play worse.

[Snakebit]

And some of y'all keep missing the point. It wasn't a matter of whether jousting or kiting were efficient. It's that they were inappropriately SAFE. And only safe because of a weakness in the AI that couldn't be rectified without hurting legit play worse.

 

You aren't wrong but consider this...

 

When it became obvious that you could hover-snipe your way from 6 to 40 without taking a point of damage that was fixed by adding ranged attacks to every mob and extending the range in a maintenance patch. Not in an issue release. It didn't take anything to tip the scales, they just fixed it. Jousting didn't make you inappropriately safe against PVE until it made you inappropriately safe in PVP.

 

Just saying. I was never butt hurt over the stupid Cryptic corporate double talk about risk versus reward because it was so transparently obvious what they were doing. Just like the ED statement. It was nonsense.

[THEDarkTyger]

Jousting didn't make you inappropriately safe against PVE until it made you inappropriately safe in PVP.

 

It absolutely did. They were talking about it being a problem before PvE was introduced.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

sorry but even in year 1 a very real melee exploit style with SS called jousting was used to ignore virtually any risk. Scrappers ofcourse being the ones doing this. they would be able to reliably one and two shot even the bosses in groups with little to no counter attacks as they would be out of aggro range before the game could respond.

 

Many of us myself included had asked for travel power speed being reduced in combat because even the flash eventually stands still to punch long enough to get attacked back.

[nihilii]

I got a bridge in Overbrook to sell to anyone who thinks travel power suppression happened because of PvE jousting.

 

Special price if you think the Homecoming team nerfed AE XP because of server load, too. ;)

[THEDarkTyger]

I got a bridge in Overbrook to sell to anyone who thinks travel power suppression happened because of PvE jousting.

 

I mean, never mind that it was being planned well before PvP was ever implemented. Gotta go with your gut and ignore the actual evidence!

 

Special price if you think the Homecoming team nerfed AE XP because of server load, too. ;)

 

Nobody thinks that, you're just being an ass. It was because of blatant exploitation.

[MrAxe]

The Arena was Issue 4 or 5.

 

Issue 6 was City of Villains and the open PvP zones.  :)

 

...

 

Travel power changes were not because of PvP.  They just happened to come out at the same time.  Those changes were intended to stop people from doing "fly-by" attacks, eliminating all risk from combat.

 

I disagree. What we were told and what the reasons were, were two very different things. Kiting mobs with travel powers was NEVER a thing. People were more concerned with trying to herd than they were with kiting.

 

I must be in a minority. Used to enjoy kiting with super speed.

 

It was counter productive. A very slow way of getting a kill.

 

It was fun, though.

[Judasace]

I don't think we can really consider this game to be the same as it was during Live when it had a team of developers who were paid to go to work and put in full-time efforts to keep the game going and growing. The current team seems to be a loosely organized group that is doing the work with the priority being to keep people playing, but I imagine they have their own lives and jobs outside of their development efforts here and the time they do spend on this is split between making tweaks and playing the game like we do which, as you know, is already a time sink.

 

I surmise that changes will be prioritized based on a combination of (1) the most blatant bugs, (2) the easiest changes to make, and (3) what the most people are asking for.

 

This. I  think here are a lot of people that see "ooh, city of heroes is back" and think there's a 30 man dev team being paid full time wages to make the game a AAA MMO.

 

There are some guys with the server code running a server so people can play the game. Thgey have a few people, some of them have varying levels of skills, and have made some changes that interest them over the course of the last 7 years.

 

You aren't going to be seeing the kinds of content updates you see in a paid MMO. YOu're going to see whatever they happen to have the interest/ability and time to do...and that isn't going to be much. A Trial, an AT a P2W vendor and a few QoL changes, all cobbled together from existing game assets - not one new major art asset, power or anything else - in 7 years should give people a decent idea of wht to expect.

[Solarverse]

I got a bridge in Overbrook to sell to anyone who thinks travel power suppression happened because of PvE jousting.

 

I mean, never mind that it was being planned well before PvP was ever implemented. Gotta go with your gut and ignore the actual evidence!

 

And how do you know this? Why, because the Devs of the original told you this? And you believed it? The evidence shows otherwise. If this was the case, they would have put it on the known issues list BEFORE PvP. It was in response to the horde of players with pitch forks who came and demanded nerfs on these boards. I was here, I seen it. The Devs, only AFTER the hordes came demanding nerfs, suddenly changed travel power suppression.

You seriously believe everything a Dev tells you? The Devs didn't want to get rage from the PvE players over a change that was made for PvP. This was their motive for blatantly lying to us. And if you don't think Devs can lie to cover their butts, I direct you to Jack Emmert and the things he said about STO before STO was released...and then look at the craptastic game he created. I also direct you to the Devs when they said PvP would never exist in City of Heroes...and then suddenly, despite the majority of players not wanting PvP, they implemented it anyway.

 

I can go on for days, literally days, in all the ways Developers of games have lied over the course of the past 20 years.

 

You are going off of what the Devs told you, this is your evidence that you bring to the table. Others are going off the evidence that is presented, despite what the Devs told you...and the timing involved.

 

[THEDarkTyger]

I got a bridge in Overbrook to sell to anyone who thinks travel power suppression happened because of PvE jousting.

 

I mean, never mind that it was being planned well before PvP was ever implemented. Gotta go with your gut and ignore the actual evidence!

 

And how do you know this?

 

....because I was playing the game back then and followed the dev posts on the forums.

 

Kinda makes the rest of your reply look pretty stupid when the answer was so obvious, doesn't it?

[Solarverse]

I got a bridge in Overbrook to sell to anyone who thinks travel power suppression happened because of PvE jousting.

 

I mean, never mind that it was being planned well before PvP was ever implemented. Gotta go with your gut and ignore the actual evidence!

 

And how do you know this?

 

....because I was playing the game back then and followed the dev posts on the forums.

 

Kinda makes the rest of your reply look pretty stupid when the answer was so obvious, doesn't it?

 

That's funny, because I played the same game you did, during the same time you did...and I recall differently than you. Kinda makes your post seem like it requires evidence to back up your claims a bit. As of right now, I have sen zero to prove your point. The evidence falls on the side of the pople who believe those changes to be made due to PvP.

[Solarverse]

I will say this, it is possible and even likely the Devs tossed around the idea before PvP, due to a select few people who jousted mobs. However, it is clear they felt it was not a big enough issue to implement travel power suppression until AFTER PvP hit the game. So I will at least give you that much. But to say it was placed in game because of PvE, is simply not true.

[THEDarkTyger]

That's funny, because I played the same game you did, during the same time you did...and I recall differently than you. Kinda makes your post seem like it requires evidence to back up your claims a bit. As of right now, I have sen zero to prove your point. The evidence falls on the side of the pople who believe those changes to be made due to PvP.

 

Yes, I'm totally gonna find an archive site to filter through thousands of posts for someone who decided to play snarky BS rather than considering an obvious and reasonable answer... Burden of proof is on me and all, but you opened by demonstrating you weren't capable of rational discussion.

[Solarverse]

That's funny, because I played the same game you did, during the same time you did...and I recall differently than you. Kinda makes your post seem like it requires evidence to back up your claims a bit. As of right now, I have sen zero to prove your point. The evidence falls on the side of the pople who believe those changes to be made due to PvP.

 

Yes, I'm totally gonna find an archive site to filter through thousands of posts for someone who decided to play snarky BS rather than considering an obvious and reasonable answer... Burden of proof is on me and all, but you opened by demonstrating you weren't capable of rational discussion.

 

My discussion was very rational. It was from my point of view, one which others seem to share. Honestly, nobody truly knows why the Devs did things that they did....it is ALL speculation, since we don't even know if the Devs were honest with us. They had every reason to lie about it, however, they may have very well been telling the truth. So the fact is, nobody truly knows. We only know what we saw, and what we experienced. It is up to the individual to decide whether or not they believe the Devs or not. I for one do not. I believe they lied to us. Honestly, if I were in their shoes at that time, I probably would have lied as well. I cannot say I am any better. Sometimes you justify the means.

 

Also, I am the OP of this thread...and this thread has been derailed by you guys so much, that I left this thread a long time ago, only to recently rejoin. This thread has been derailed and has nothing to do with the original topic of the thread. Instead of trying to find an answer to the original topic, it turned in to a silly debate on what the original Devs did and what their motives were.

 

The fact is, it doesn't even matter. It is pointless. Travel Power Suppression no longer exists to the degree it once did. So the argument as to when and why doesn't even matter. Just two people trying to sound important. Who cares? What does that have to do with now and the stance these Devs have with PvP and the balance of the game?

 

I'm willing to drop it with a friendly agreement. Neither one of us truly knows why Travel Power Suppression was created. It is purely speculation and depends on if you believe the official reasons given by the original Devs, or if you feel the reasons given were questionable do to the suspicious timing and the events that were taking place, during the time that it was implemented.

 

The truth is most likely somewhere in between.

 

If we can agree on this, I'm willing to shake on it.  :)

[THEDarkTyger]

My discussion was very rational.

 

No. Opening with sarcastic BS is not being rational. It's an immediate attempt to poison the well. The opposite of rational discussion. You basically called me a liar in your first sentence.

[Judasace]

I got a bridge in Overbrook to sell to anyone who thinks travel power suppression happened because of PvE jousting.

 

I mean, never mind that it was being planned well before PvP was ever implemented. Gotta go with your gut and ignore the actual evidence!

 

And how do you know this?

 

....because I was playing the game back then and followed the dev posts on the forums.

 

Kinda makes the rest of your reply look pretty stupid when the answer was so obvious, doesn't it?

 

The original CoH devs were the lyingist bunch of two faced manipulative...welll, any more and I'd probably break forum rules. But I wouldn't trust Jack E to tell me what color the sky is, let alone anything about a game he had anything to do with, and the rest of the devs weren't any better, be it by personal choice or forced orders from above.

 

All the years we were told Power Customization was impossible...then here comes CO with power customization and...wait for it...some lowly dev just happens to accidentally find the magic key to power and weapon customization! What a MIRACLE!

 

I'm sorry, but the original devs accidentally made a really fun game, but they were not honest people and repeatedly lied about everything from capes, to power customization to PvP, to Free to Play...everything.

 

I was there the whole time. I watched the lies unfold. Trying to base arguments on things the Devs said is like basing a conviction on what the defendant says "I swear, those TVs, they just fell off the truck...and also, I was in Newark that day! I swear!"

 

I wouldn't trust a word a single one of them posted on the old forums.

[Solarverse]

My discussion was very rational.

 

No. Opening with sarcastic BS is not being rational. It's an immediate attempt to poison the well. The opposite of rational discussion. You basically called me a liar in your first sentence.

 

I never called you a liar. I disagreed with you. Huge difference. Also, the closest thing to snark I gave you was asking you if you believed everything a Dev says. Even that was not considered snark by me...I consider that a direct question which I was hoping to get a direct answer. Disagreeing is not calling somebody a liar, it is disagreeing.

[GM Fiddleback]

Hello.

 

Just a reminder. Please keep to the points of the discussion rather than slinging accusations at each other of any sort. That way madness lies...

 

Otherwise, do carry on with the civil parts of the discussion.

 

Thanks. :)

[Ghost49X]

About jousting and kiting...

Sounds like they felt like the situation needed an emergency fix and they didn't have any good ideas so they went with the best they could think off. We should consider reversing this decision at some point but until they can come up with something better we better leave it alone.

[anodynes]

When this game first came out, the Original Devs stated (I believe it was Jack Emmert) that this game would never have PvP.

 

That's Jack fully two years before the game released. PvP was at the very least on the whiteboard of things to do way back then. Even if he had said that there wouldn't be PvP around launch, he would have been eating those words in about two weeks, when they announced City of Villains at E3.

 

The ToHit Debuff had always been there in Fly, as far as I recall, but was added to Super Speed and Super Jump with the release of Issue 4, with Arena PvP, mind you, then switched to suppression a week later. I'm not kidding, it was that fast. I'm sure there was a PvE use of jousting, but I would say that the timing puts the onus of the change mostly on PvP balance.

[Solarverse]

When this game first came out, the Original Devs stated (I believe it was Jack Emmert) that this game would never have PvP.

 

That's Jack fully two years before the game released. PvP was at the very least on the whiteboard of things to do way back then. Even if he had said that there wouldn't be PvP around launch, he would have been eating those words in about two weeks, when they announced City of Villains at E3.

 

The ToHit Debuff had always been there in Fly, as far as I recall, but was added to Super Speed and Super Jump with the release of Issue 4, with Arena PvP, mind you, then switched to suppression a week later. I'm not kidding, it was that fast. I'm sure there was a PvE use of jousting, but I would say that the timing puts the onus of the change mostly on PvP balance.

 

I can't be for sure on this part, but Arena was scrapped at the same time that having full power customization was scrapped. For example, fire sword circle, with blaster powers, combined with controller powers. If you watch some of those videos, they even used those powers together. Originally City of Heroes was supposed to let you combine any powers you wanted. That obviously was changed at some point, as was the idea to bring PvP in to the game. I am fairly certain that the Devs decided against PvP and stated it would not be a part of the game after it went live. I would have to do some digging to find it, if the post even still exists at all.

[anodynes]

When this game first came out, the Original Devs stated (I believe it was Jack Emmert) that this game would never have PvP.

 

That's Jack fully two years before the game released. PvP was at the very least on the whiteboard of things to do way back then. Even if he had said that there wouldn't be PvP around launch, he would have been eating those words in about two weeks, when they announced City of Villains at E3.

 

The ToHit Debuff had always been there in Fly, as far as I recall, but was added to Super Speed and Super Jump with the release of Issue 4, with Arena PvP, mind you, then switched to suppression a week later. I'm not kidding, it was that fast. I'm sure there was a PvE use of jousting, but I would say that the timing puts the onus of the change mostly on PvP balance.

 

I can't be for sure on this part, but Arena was scrapped at the same time that having full power customization was scrapped. For example, fire sword circle, with blaster powers, combined with controller powers. If you watch some of those videos, they even used those powers together. Originally City of Heroes was supposed to let you combine any powers you wanted. That obviously was changed at some point, as was the idea to bring PvP in to the game. I am fairly certain that the Devs decided against PvP and stated it would not be a part of the game after it went live. I would have to do some digging to find it, if the post even still exists at all.

 

I was not a Beta player, but was there from the moment that it went live, and I remember nothing of the sort. Yes, they changed their minds about power selection, implementing ATs and power sets, but that was a year later, and with no mention of PvP, either confirming or denying any plans for it. Again, they would have been really shortsighted to say something like that anywhere near launch, when they were giving a demonstration of PvP at E3, about two weeks later.

[PaxArcana]

Most likely, the statement was "would not be part of the game at launch (but would be in a later free update)".

 

Which is pretty standard for an "it's not ready for prime-time yet, but we know people want it and will add it when it's ready to go" approach to MMO development.

[Solarverse]

When this game first came out, the Original Devs stated (I believe it was Jack Emmert) that this game would never have PvP.

 

That's Jack fully two years before the game released. PvP was at the very least on the whiteboard of things to do way back then. Even if he had said that there wouldn't be PvP around launch, he would have been eating those words in about two weeks, when they announced City of Villains at E3.

 

The ToHit Debuff had always been there in Fly, as far as I recall, but was added to Super Speed and Super Jump with the release of Issue 4, with Arena PvP, mind you, then switched to suppression a week later. I'm not kidding, it was that fast. I'm sure there was a PvE use of jousting, but I would say that the timing puts the onus of the change mostly on PvP balance.

 

I can't be for sure on this part, but Arena was scrapped at the same time that having full power customization was scrapped. For example, fire sword circle, with blaster powers, combined with controller powers. If you watch some of those videos, they even used those powers together. Originally City of Heroes was supposed to let you combine any powers you wanted. That obviously was changed at some point, as was the idea to bring PvP in to the game. I am fairly certain that the Devs decided against PvP and stated it would not be a part of the game after it went live. I would have to do some digging to find it, if the post even still exists at all.

 

I was not a Beta player, but was there from the moment that it went live, and I remember nothing of the sort. Yes, they changed their minds about power selection, implementing ATs and power sets, but that was a year later, and with no mention of PvP, either confirming or denying any plans for it. Again, they would have been really shortsighted to say something like that anywhere near launch, when they were giving a demonstration of PvP at E3, about two weeks later.

 

It was after the game went live and an  occasional player would come to the forums and ask about PvP. If memory serves me correctly (and this is old memory, very old memory) a Dev came in to one of those threads and said this was not a PvP game and PvP was not going to happen.

 

After that particular thread came out and the Dev post on that thread, any time a player came to the boards and asked about PvP, the players would chime in and tell the OP of that thread, that the Devs have already said it was not going to happen. Most often times the people who said this was not so nice about it, as they were sick of players asking about PvP and felt the question was a dead horse.

 

Like I said, I'm sure if I tried really hard, I could find at least something that would collaborate this. However, you'll have to take it with a grain of salt, since I won't be doing all that today.  :)