Star Trek: Section 31

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

The rumours are apparently real...

 

So, we have Michelle Yeoh back as Philippa Georgiou for this one-off Paramount+ movie, wearing a succession of fabulous and impractical outfits, kicking copious amounts of backside and dropping pithy one-liners. Plot, such as it is, will also involve confronting some of her past, so I'm presuming we've got some Mirror Universe incursion malarkey going on.

 

She's joined by Omari Hardwick (Power, Army of the Dead) and Canadian actress Kacey Rohl (White Lie, Wayward Pines), plus cartoon, comedy and stand-up regular Sam Richardson (Ted Lasso, BoJack Horseman and numerous others).

 

It doesn't look like the biggest-budget or best-scripted Trek offering in history, to be frank, but does look fun. 

[Triumphant]

I am not a fan of Discovery.  The visual aesthetics of the show just turned me off sufficiently, that I couldn't watch it (a shame, considering the great cast of actors it has to its credit).  The ship is ugly.  The Klingons are goofy looking.  And... Spore Drive.  Yeah, no.  I realize Star Trek is not hard sci-fi.  It has its silly technobabble, etc.  But this was just a step too far into the absurd, even for an old Trek fan, like myself.  Also, a show focused specifically on Section 31 is a bit too niche for me.  And, I suppose, not really the tone I want from a Trek show, anyway.  This one (like Discovery) is going to get a pass from me.

 

Definitely looking forward to more Strange New Worlds, though (But, for the love of god, no more musical episodes, please! 🤦‍♂️).  

[TheOtherTed]

I feel kind of bad for the kid delivering the opening monologue.  Clearly tried so hard, but just couldn't quite deliver.  Also, what's with the crappy edgy pseudo-music that keeps infesting trailers these days?  Is that supposed to be Section 31's anthem?

 

On the plus side, though, the Velma trailers now have some real competition.

 

Edited to add:  Section 31 hires Wood Elves?  Nice to get some representation.

 

 

Edited August 15 by TheOtherTed

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

Quote

Also, what's with the crappy edgy pseudo-music that keeps infesting trailers these days?  Is that supposed to be Section 31's anthem?

 

It's a screwed-up, sorta-epic-ized version of Beyonce's Formation.

(And while 2StepsFromHell and Samuel Kim have done some very weird versions of stuff over the years - with variable results - even they wouldn't risk upsetting the Beyhive.)

 

Edited August 15 by ThaOGDreamWeaver

[InvaderStych]

Hmm ...

 

As a vehicle for Michelle Yeoh? Yes. Looks great.

 

As a piece centered on Section 31? Nah. Not what I was hoping for when the rumors were firing up.

 

I get why ... take a popular character (deservedly so) played by an excellent actress and give them a bit of a run. Folks will watch it just for a bit more Georgiou (I know I will) ...

 

... but there is so much more that could be done with something like 31 that I can't help but feel a slight tinge of disappointment that the potential isn't being explored.

 

 

[Techwright]

17 hours ago, Triumphant said:

I am not a fan of Discovery.

 

Not a big fan of Discovery, either, though I watched suffered the first two seasons.  That's saying something because I was a huge Trekkie growing up. 

For examples and a detailed opinion of Discovery I'll use a spoiler box as its all just excess details:

 

Spoiler

At 13, I could tell you the plot and every named character in all 78 episodes of the Original ("The Cage" had not yet been released.) At a time when paperback books were just US$2.50, I had hundreds of dollars of paperback Trek books lining my bookcases, all read repeatedly.  I was over the moon when they announced The Next Generation.  I actually predicted the concepts for Voyager and DS9 years before anyone in fandom knew they were to be a thing.  I was tuned in.  The only thing I wasn't able to do was conventions.  

 

Discovery was not just an update where the technology was adjusted for our era, it was fundamentally different.  The Spore Drive broke all manner of lore.  The creators, I felt, were so penny-poor for ideas that in a huge galaxy full of potential, they had to turn once again to Spock's family and again alter their story, and again make them central to another Trek series.  The changes to the Klingons were a collective travesty.  Gene Roddenberry himself had changed the Klingons back in The Motion Picture, and stated that his new interpretation would have been the originals had he the budget needed to create them.  I understood that.  It should have been left alone.  I particularly hate that Discovery was not really an ensemble, but everything revolved around a junior officer, that tacked-on member of Spock's family.

 

 

 

Don't get me started.  😉

 

I did like Anson's performance as Pike.  That's been the one good consistent in everything I've seen of Trek so far:  Pike actors have made him memorable.  With the exception of Picard season 1 (which I felt wobbled, but had some really good moments), I've not seen any new Trek past season 2 of Discovery.  Part of that is my distaste, but part of that is the subscription model.  I only do one subscription at a time, and so far, there's not been enough to justify the budget expenditure.  I might consider it soon, though.  Strange New Worlds has held my curiosity for a while.

 

I liked Section 31 in DS9.  Far from considering it niche, I felt a series revolving around this dark side of the Federation might be fun.  I don't know what that might be like, though, when seen through the filter of the Discovery Universe (my term for it).

 

 

Edited August 16 by Techwright

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

I'm liking Strange New Worlds, and not just for Chris Pike - I like the various crew dynamics, particularly anyone's relationship with Ortegas.

(Commercial and MAC pilots tend to be likeable oddballs any time they're not on the clock, so she's very familiar, 

 

Oddly, some of the best scripting, characterisation and plotting has been in... Lower Decks. 

Their crossover episode was both laugh-out-loud funny, right down to the Riker Maneuver and Boimler's Air Feds, and classic Trek.

[ZacKing]

I'm not a fan of Discovery either.  It's sole redeeming quality is proving that Voyager and Enterprise weren't bad after all, and that's including the abysmal "These are the voyages" finale for Enterprise.

 

I can't get excited about this at all, which is truly a shame since I absolutely adore Michelle Yeoh.  She was the only redeeming thing about Discovery and I didn't watch any episode she wasn't in and stopped watching altogether once she left. 

This looks just terrible and an actress of her immense talent is totally wasted on garbage like this.  Then again, what does anyone expect when you have "showrunners" like Chabon who said he didn't care about what fans thought and wanted to piss them off, hiring "writers" who admit they've never watched a single second of Star Trek and have no clue as to the lore.   No wonder Paramount is in the crapper.

[Techwright]

22 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

I'm not a fan of Discovery either.  It's sole redeeming quality is proving that Voyager and Enterprise weren't bad after all, and that's including the abysmal "These are the voyages" finale for Enterprise.

 

Ooo...ouch! LoL 🤣  But its true!  I was frustrated with Voyager.  It had such huge potential it kept squandering.  I didn't like everything about it, and I got along with Enterprise better than many, but that last episode should never have happened.

 

26 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

  Then again, what does anyone expect when you have "showrunners" like Chabon who said he didn't care about what fans thought and wanted to piss them off, hiring "writers" who admit they've never watched a single second of Star Trek and have no clue as to the lore.   No wonder Paramount is in the crapper.

 

I had not heard this.  Did he actually say he wanted to do that?  If so, I'll now consider anything tied to Discovery to be the third universe, the Discovery Universe.  Sometimes a multiverse is a good thing, if it distances garbage from good.

[ZacKing]

4 minutes ago, Techwright said:

Did he actually say he wanted to do that? 

 

Yup.

 

"To the extent that I was aware of the kind of toxic fandom, the anti-SJW, you know, sad little corner of fandom — you just disregard that. Sometimes you’re motivated to have things simply because it’s possibly going to piss off or provoke people who seem to have missed the memo about just what exactly “Star Trek” is and always has been all about."

 

https://variety.com/2020/tv/features/michael-chabon-star-trek-picard-1203544717/

 

[Excraft]

On 8/23/2024 at 1:23 PM, ZacKing said:

"To the extent that I was aware of the kind of toxic fandom, the anti-SJW, you know, sad little corner of fandom — you just disregard that. Sometimes you’re motivated to have things simply because it’s possibly going to piss off or provoke people who seem to have missed the memo about just what exactly “Star Trek” is and always has been all about."

 

 

I've seen that article before and yes, Michael Chabon really is a total hack and a complete piece of fecal matter.  Back in the day, the creatives behind Star Trek knew that not everything they produced was of the highest quality and they were very humble in admitting it.  Today, if someone doesn't like something, they're labelled as "toxic" and told they're every kind of negative -ist there is.  Total hacks like Michael Chabon would never admit they're writing stinks - it's the fan's fault, not his complete and total lack of talent.

 

Most here may have seen this before, but here's a good example.  This is Shatner and Nimoy at a Trek convention when Star Trek VI premiered.   If you've never seen it, Nimoy and Shatner both humbly talk and joke about how Trek wasn't always emmy award winning writing.  They never blamed the fans for it.  Nimoy even compliments and thanks the fans for being so forgiving.

 

 

[Luminara]

Section 31: an ultra-secret organization that conducts extralegal covert surveillance and clandestine missions to maintain the security of the Federation.

 

Trailer: WWWWWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO PARTY, MOTHERFUCKERS!  LET'S GET SOME FIREWORKS GOING!  RAISE THE ROOF, BITCHES!  

 

I can't quite put my finger on it, but something seems... off.

[InvaderStych]

If they wanted to do S31, it should have just been a story about this guy (with some of that not-at-all-uncanny-valley-invoking-de-aging-tech):

 

 

Or, hell, even this would get my support:

 

 

...

 

Tangential thing I discovered while pulling up William Sadler's name from IMDB ...

 

... what in the love of Trek is this likely abomination, why is J-Dax in it if it is set 25 years after she dies, and why do I feel compelled to watch it because that's how much I loved DS9?

 

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt12669884/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0_tt_8_nm_0_in_0_q_ds9

 

 

 

... back on topic ...

 

I still expect it to be fun to watch Yeoh strut around this for the giggles, but I don't expect it to be a compelling take on S31. I'll just imagine I'm watching something else. 🤣

Edited August 25 by InvaderStych
broken linky fixedy

[TheOtherTed]

8 hours ago, InvaderStych said:

Yeoh strut around this for the giggles

Well, I mean, she does actually giggle, so that's... something.  I guess.

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

 

13 hours ago, Luminara said:

LET'S GET SOME FIREWORKS GOING!  RAISE THE ROOF, BITCHES!  

I seem to remember Coulson wisecracking about SHIELD being the only secret org that has branded everything.

 

Two options for successful movie spycraft:

• The Classic: Make sure no-one's looking at you
• The Bond: Make sure everyone's looking at you (but not where they should be looking, and/or not for the right reasons)

Given the opening scenes seem to be in a club or casino, I think it's Door #2.

[Techwright]

14 hours ago, Luminara said:

Section 31: an ultra-secret organization that conducts extralegal covert surveillance and clandestine missions to maintain the security of the Federation.

 

Trailer: WWWWWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO PARTY, MOTHERFUCKERS!  LET'S GET SOME FIREWORKS GOING!  RAISE THE ROOF, BITCHES!  

 

I can't quite put my finger on it, but something seems... off.

 

It's been a while since I've seen DS9, but I seem to recall that even several of the alien counterpart organizations were not aware of S31, or at least considered it a boogeyman myth.  Which, if accurate, just goes to show how successful S31 should be considered to be.  The Tal Shiar and the Obsidian Order may have been extremely arrogant, but they were not depicted as slouches in their field of information gathering.

[Ulysses Dare]

25 minutes ago, Techwright said:

 

It's been a while since I've seen DS9, but I seem to recall that even several of the alien counterpart organizations were not aware of S31, or at least considered it a boogeyman myth.  Which, if accurate, just goes to show how successful S31 should be considered to be.  The Tal Shiar and the Obsidian Order may have been extremely arrogant, but they were not depicted as slouches in their field of information gathering.

It made sense though. Section 31 is an intelligence service that has to hide it's existence from it's own people. Compared to that, hiding from foreign intelligence is almost easy. Though that does reinforce that they put the covert into covert operations, something that Hollywood spies usually fall flat at.

[Luminara]

35 minutes ago, Techwright said:

It's been a while since I've seen DS9, but I seem to recall that even several of the alien counterpart organizations were not aware of S31, or at least considered it a boogeyman myth.

 

From the episode, Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges, when Koval, head of the Tal Shiar (Romulan intelligence), states that there is no Section 31 and accuses Sloan (the Section 31 on DS9) of fabricating it.  Koval is later revealed to be a double agent, working for Section 31, and the events of the episode were a ploy intended to pave the way for him to assume Senator Cretak's seat on the Romulan Senate, specifically because Cretak is loyal to the Romulan Empire and might turn against the Federation during or after the Dominion War.  But Koval being a double agent is a pretty good indication that the Tal Shiar did know about Section 31... and at the same time didn't.  He might've learned of them, but he would've kept the information to himself, and after he was turned, he definitely wouldn't be spreading intel about them around, because it could've cost him his life.

 

If the Obsidian Order knew anything about Section 31, it would've come from Garak, who would've learned of its existence in the aftermath of the episode Inquisition (when Bashir is holodeck-napped by Sloan)... but anything Garak could tell them would've amounted to little more than rumor, and Tain's actions in the episode when he gets his entire secret fleet destroyed by trying to take on the Dominion proves that the Obsidian Order was too arrogant to accept that something like Section 31 could exist, much less be a threat.

 

And the Klingons had no comparable organization.  They just don't think or act in a way that would allow it.  There's a distinction to be made here, though: the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order aren't just intelligence organizations, they're also secret police.  Space Stasi.  They weren't well-kept secrets, they were known and feared, and they utilized that fear to gain a degree of independence from their respective governments.  And Section 31 wasn't an intelligence agency at all.  They might've shared intel with the Federation government (or the Romulans, or the Cardassians, or even the Klingons, whomever was necessary to realize a goal), but they were completely autonomous and capable of enacting their plans without governmental assistance.  No reports filed, no committees to answer to, nothing, just them and what they felt was "best" for the Federation.  Klingons would never tolerate anything like any of these organizations.  Did they have one or more intelligence agencies?  Of course.  Did they have something like the Big Three?  No, it's not something their societal or cultural structures would allow to exist.

 

So Tal Shiar maybe but unlikely, Obsidian Order maybe but it wouldn't have mattered because they would've dismissed it as an ordinary and inferior group, Klingons no.

[PeregrineFalcon]

18 hours ago, Luminara said:

Section 31: an ultra-secret organization that conducts extralegal covert surveillance and clandestine missions to maintain the security of the Federation.

 

Trailer: WWWWWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO PARTY, MOTHERFUCKERS!  LET'S GET SOME FIREWORKS GOING!  RAISE THE ROOF, BITCHES!  

 

I can't quite put my finger on it, but something seems... off.

The people of Section 31 are so loyal to the Federation that they're risking their careers and their lives just by being in Section 31. So they decide to bring Female-Space-Hitler aboard as one of their agents when they know for a fact that she's not loyal to the Federation, and they trust her to not betray the Federation or expose Section 31 for... reasons?

 

Yeah, something seems off alright. The show hasn't even launched and it's already got plot holes that my 10 year old would notice and try to back a giant lego semi-truck clean through.

[FrauleinMental]

It's almost like too many people in the Federation know about 31 and they're using the plot of the new show as a disinformation campaign to convince Federation citizens that nothing like 31 could possibly exist.

[FDR's Think Tank]

1 hour ago, FrauleinMental said:

It's almost like too many people in the Federation know about 31 and they're using the plot of the new show as a disinformation campaign to convince Federation citizens that nothing like 31 could possibly exist.

 

Exactly... when Bashir was learning about Section 31, he was way out on the fringes... delving into something most Federation people wouldn't even think about or believe. That's what made the episodes with him and Section 31 so great.

 

But later show and movies make Section 31 less like Area 51/X-files and more like... the NSA. It loses it's luster when it's like that.

[Techwright]

1 hour ago, FDR's Think Tank said:

But later show and movies make Section 31 less like Area 51/X-files and more like... the NSA. It loses it's luster when it's like that.

 

Kind of like when a terrifying, nigh-impossible to kill hive-mind pseudo-race, having no clear central command or heart to kill, suddenly has a queen that can be targeted and killed, destroying significant portions of the hive in the process.

 

Of course, that's just speculation.  I'm sure Trek would never water down potent groups twice, right?

[Excraft]

On 8/25/2024 at 8:41 PM, Techwright said:

Kind of like when a terrifying, nigh-impossible to kill hive-mind pseudo-race, having no clear central command or heart to kill, suddenly has a queen that can be targeted and killed, destroying significant portions of the hive in the process.

 

Even that no longer holds true.  The Borg Queen has been destroyed how many times on screen now?  3 or 4?  Yet the Borg somehow manage to survive.

[TheOtherTed]

23 minutes ago, Excraft said:

 

Even that no longer holds true.  The Borg Queen has been destroyed how many times on screen now?  3 or 4?  Yet the Borg somehow manage to survive.

Right?  Might as well call 'em Daleks at this point.

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

14 hours ago, Excraft said:

The Borg Queen has been destroyed how many times on screen now?  3 or 4?  Yet the Borg somehow manage to survive.

The Borg must have assimilated a developer in the past, and are keeping weekly offline backup Queens.
 

This is also why they never attack on weekends, or even deploy on a Friday.

Edited August 31 by ThaOGDreamWeaver