Dark/SS Rageless Tank

[Lusiphur Malache]

Been teaming with various Super Strength tanks lately and have read and heard some unkind things said about Rage crash.  So far things are going good with some bad.  Thankful for Death Shroud after learning Hand Clap does no damage.  I didn't realise how little damage SS does until someone pointed it out to me, I know not taking Rage is going to make that more apparent as I'm level 19 now and Rage unlocks at 24.  Eager to get past skipping Rage and see what is on the other side.

 

tl;dr Have you skipped Rage, tell me about it and leave some advice if you have any.  Including stop, turn back, it isn't worth it.

[Psyonico]

If you only team on larger teams, or if you have a pocket Kin, you can skip rage without hurting too much.  You will feel the pain of low damage though.

 

I don't like Rage, myself, but I have long since realized that SS is balanced around Rage.  I've got a couple SS toons (and have even been playing them a bit the last couple days) but I generally don't play it much because the rage crash annoys me but no rage makes me feel gimped.

[Thraxen]

I hate the word proc now cause it’s all everyone ever does with anything, but proc out ko blow. Slot rest as normal. If rage crashes it still does a little damage. My tank doesn’t have perma double I don’t think. Energy melee might be what you’re looking for though. Big hits. No crash. No footstomp though. 

[evetsleep]

On 9/3/2024 at 7:36 PM, Thraxen said:

I hate the word proc now cause it’s all everyone ever does with anything, but proc out ko blow. Slot rest as normal. If rage crashes it still does a little damage. My tank doesn’t have perma double I don’t think. Energy melee might be what you’re looking for though. Big hits. No crash. No footstomp though. 

If footstomp scratches a particular itch, Frozen Aura from Ice Melee is very similar without needing Rage... It's also a pretty fun/safe/effective set IMHO.

[Sovera]

The set is built around Rage. It's not like other sets where we get 80% for 10 seconds every 30 seconds. Rage is meant to be up 100% of the time, so all the damage is balanced around Rage. You CAN play without it and the world will not end and mobs will be defeated, but you might as well consider something like Fire Melee and have two PBAoEs instead of just one (and have it at level 6 instead of 30).

[SeraphimKensai]

I have a DA/SS tanker. And I will never skip rage on an SS toon. You can use temps during rage crash or dark Regen. Stack handclap with oppressive gloom for stun locking tons of incoming damage.

[ZemX]

23 hours ago, Sovera said:

The set is built around Rage. It's not like other sets where we get 80% for 10 seconds every 30 seconds. Rage is meant to be up 100% of the time, so all the damage is balanced around Rage. You CAN play without it and the world will not end and mobs will be defeated, but you might as well consider something like Fire Melee and have two PBAoEs instead of just one (and have it at level 6 instead of 30).

 

Not exactly, but I'm probably splitting hairs here.  SS suffers poor DPA because of the general problem of powers not being balanced around animation times.  Rage, however, is better than Build Up at adding damage, especially double-stacked, so in that way SS can solve some of that "original sin" problem of poor DPA by itself... but only if you take Rage and really only if you double-stack it (or get close enough to it).

[Lusiphur Malache]

Finally made it to 50 on this build.  Gave up on not taking Rage, so I gave a thought to mitigating the crash.  Through dumb luck I think I might have, sure there's a dip in endurance when Rage wears off, but it is slight and I recover from it quickly.  That may be due to me hitting Conserve Power just before the crash.  Here is the build at the moment, haven't unlocked Alpha yet.

 

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Tanker (Dark Armor - Super Strength).mbd

[Zect]

Conserve power doesn't work on the rage crash, at least not directly. It does help by reducing your overall eps, but it doesn't reduce the amount the crash deducts (which is flagged to ignore enhancement). Ideally, you want some recovery buff as well.

 

For endgame IO tankers at least, all the issues with rage are somewhat addressable. SS will not do damage directly during the crash, but SS is one of the best procbomber sets and procs do damage just fine even during the crash. We have considerably more means to deal with the end loss such as harmonic mind or survival amps (even before deploying incarnate endo management tools like ageless). And the defense loss is much less significant given tankers' incredibly high base defense and strong ability to stack resistance instead.

[Nemu]

On 9/3/2024 at 9:30 AM, Lusiphur Malache said:

Hand Clap does no damage

You know what it does do? help you survive. AoE knockdown (with the kd IO) gives you breathing room when incoming damage starts to get a little overwhelming, this will be relevant when you face mobs with heavy debuffs

 

I looked at your build, lots of room for improvement

You skipped two pretty good mitigation tools, both stun and thus can stack to give you some breathing room. Handclap can also by rotated with footstomp for chain knockdowns as another layer of mitigation.

 

I don't know why you would opt for 2 picks in the concealment pool when cloak of darkness is superior in every way. You also have no protection from immobilize, I guess that's why you got combat teleport. But really, combat jumping is the easiest way to address the immob hole.

 

These slots in boxing and kick are better invested in cross punch, slot cross punch for damage, not stun. This is not a game that rewards you for investing in insignificant secondary effects of a power designed to do damage first and foremost.

 

Dark regeneration needs recharge, and a theft of essence +end proc

 

Health and physical perfection are overslotted. Passive regeneration isn't going to help you too much. Dark armor is not a set that has a high regen base in the first place.

 

Instead of slotting boxing and kick and using those for 28 levels you can push knockout blow up to level 20. Being a resist tanker I'm surprised you didn't at least take tough to help raise your S/L resists.

 

I could probably write 2 posts worth of comments about various things I see in your build but instead of doing that I'm going to post a very budget friendly mostly basic SO build to give you an idea of planning a build with progression, endurance management, survival and synergy in mind, turn slot levels on to see how I place slots during the leveling process, let's not worry about sets right now, I can write another 2 posts about how to use them.

 

DA SS basic leveling build - Tanker (Dark Armor - Super Strength).mbd

 

During the first 20 levels you want to focus on slotting attacks and working on endurance management to support dark regeneration which is your key survival power. If you had to spend inf on one IO it would be the theft of essence proc in dark regen. Early level melee all struggle with survival because they are slots starved, so focus on attacks first which helps you kill stuff because you don't get xp for just staying alive.

 

Dark armor doesn't get kb protection so I took acrobatics, you could get -kb IOs if you have the funds for them. I also slotted a karma -kb in combat jumping as an example. If you do have the funds for -kb IOs you can drop acrobatics, move kick and tough up and take cross punch at level 26 for a more complete offensive arsenal before level 30.

 

Hand clap has low acc so it has more acc slotting, that combined with oppressive gloom start to form a good foundation for your proactive survival toolkit. Once you have that and are not strictly relying on dark regen to stay alive, then you can start taking the taunt auras.

 

By level 30 you will have a decent offensive toolkit and the means to actually do a little tanking. Compare that to your build - taunt aura and taunt before level 20 with no means to actually stay alive. Super strength is weak at lower levels due to scarcity of attacks but you can get free temp powers to cover that gap while you are leveling. It's not ideal, but it beats sinking slots into bad powers like boxing/kick.

 

[Psyonico]

1 hour ago, Nemu said:

loak of darkness is superior in every way. You also have no protection from immobilize, I guess that's why you got combat teleport. But really, combat jumping is the easiest way to address the immob hole.

 

I should add that Cloak of Darkness also gives immobilize protection, so another reason not to skip it.

[Sanguinesun]

On 12/6/2024 at 11:18 AM, Lusiphur Malache said:

Finally made it to 50 on this build.  Gave up on not taking Rage, so I gave a thought to mitigating the crash.  Through dumb luck I think I might have, sure there's a dip in endurance when Rage wears off, but it is slight and I recover from it quickly.  That may be due to me hitting Conserve Power just before the crash.  Here is the build at the moment, haven't unlocked Alpha yet.

 

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Tanker (Dark Armor - Super Strength).mbd 40.29 kB · 4 downloads

 

 

Your build choices make you have significant losses to defense, resistances, and damage.  People covered some aspects of it and offered you an alternative build (it tbh isnt much better).

 

Dark/  is a challenging set to build well with because it offers so much that taking most all the things good with it means you may have to sacrifice elsewhere. It also doesnt have KB protection inherently in the set(intentionally) and you have to build for either in IO's or IO set bonuses(most commonly done) or it is built through choosing a power like acrobatics(which then potentially takes away from other power choices and is another endurance drain); or you need to rely on some other player on a team providing you that KB mitigation(though remember not all teams will have someone capable of helping provide that for you.

 

But even on the best of builds, its still going to be mindful of endurance and the rage crash of course. Instead of the energy epic pool for endurance, I would've opted instead for psionic pool's harmonic mind as its an endurance discount to powers which with all the toggles you have to manage, its more helpful.  You'll still likely need to also opt for the hybrid embodiement incarn for more end discounts too though.

 

 

[Jacke]

On 9/3/2024 at 6:08 PM, Psyonico said:

If you only team on larger teams, or if you have a pocket Kin, you can skip rage without hurting too much.  You will feel the pain of low damage though.

 

I don't like Rage, myself, but I have long since realized that SS is balanced around Rage.  I've got a couple SS toons (and have even been playing them a bit the last couple days) but I generally don't play it much because the rage crash annoys me but no rage makes me feel gimped.

 

@Psyonico's words have set me to thinking.  I've got a Inv/SS Tanker, but only at low Level (under L10).  The current build is without Rage.  Now I wonder whether this Toon is worth pursuing.

 

Because I don't want to work around Rage-crash.  That just seems to me to just be wrong.

 

Now I'm wondering, do I drop this Toon and make 2 replacement Tankers?  One to be the Invulnerability Tanker with another Secondary.  The other to be the /Super Strength Tanker.  That Super Strength Tanker without Rage would need to have more damage from the Primary.  That means either Bio, Fiery Aura, or Shield.

 

Or would Assault be enough?  (Not currently in my Inv/SS Tanker build, how to fit it in...?)

 

Damn, it's just wrong Rage is like this.

 

 

[Sanguinesun]

3 hours ago, Jacke said:

 

@Psyonico's words have set me to thinking.  I've got a Inv/SS Tanker, but only at low Level (under L10).  The current build is without Rage.  Now I wonder whether this Toon is worth pursuing.

 

Because I don't want to work around Rage-crash.  That just seems to me to just be wrong.

 

Now I'm wondering, do I drop this Toon and make 2 replacement Tankers?  One to be the Invulnerability Tanker with another Secondary.  The other to be the /Super Strength Tanker.  That Super Strength Tanker without Rage would need to have more damage from the Primary.  That means either Bio, Fiery Aura, or Shield.

 

Or would Assault be enough?  (Not currently in my Inv/SS Tanker build, how to fit it in...?)

 

Damn, it's just wrong Rage is like this.

 

 

 

The rage mechanic just simply requires management, just like many other set's various powers that have crashes with them.  But if someone disdains a mechanic of a set that is fundamental to the set's overall playstyle, then one needs to more or less look to play other sets that better match their caliber of play/playstyle.

 

But lets keep in mind that 97% of the player base are gen pop casual players and anything becomes fine because of team support.  This issue then becomes not the set but the player choice/approach.

[Warshades]

4 hours ago, Jacke said:

Because I don't want to work around Rage-crash.  That just seems to me to just be wrong.

 

Now I'm wondering, do I drop this Toon and make 2 replacement Tankers?  One to be the Invulnerability Tanker with another Secondary.  The other to be the /Super Strength Tanker.  That Super Strength Tanker without Rage would need to have more damage from the Primary.  That means either Bio, Fiery Aura, or Shield.

 

I wouldn't worry about the -def from rage crash on an invuln tank all that much. You can build invuln to be near resist capped to everything while having soft capped def. A short def crash won't do much of anything for your survival.

 

However, if you really want to create a different tank that can take advantage of rage more, I would highly recommend rad/ss. Rage can fill in for a lot of acc/dam slotting which allows you to damage proc out most of your attacks and rad armor brings 2 more AoE nukes in Rad Therapy and Ground Zero. Slotting a lot of your attacks with damage procs also helps reduce the impact of the -dmg from rage crashes.

[Jacke]

16 hours ago, Sanguinesun said:

The rage mechanic just simply requires management, just like many other set's various powers that have crashes with them.  But if someone disdains a mechanic of a set that is fundamental to the set's overall playstyle, then one needs to more or less look to play other sets that better match their caliber of play/playstyle.

 

But lets keep in mind that 97% of the player base are gen pop casual players and anything becomes fine because of team support.  This issue then becomes not the set but the player choice/approach.

 

Many more recently created Powersets have much easier crashes to handle.  The extreme crashes of older Powerses I do not like and I tend to avoid all those Powers with crashes.  Like Rage. 

 

I also solo a fair amount.  While I can adjust the difficulty, it still leaves my Toon with substandard Damage due to me not wanting to manage the Rage crash.  And that's still so in Teamed content.

 

 

16 hours ago, Warshades said:

I wouldn't worry about the -def from rage crash on an invuln tank all that much. You can build invuln to be near resist capped to everything while having soft capped def. A short def crash won't do much of anything for your survival.

 

However, if you really want to create a different tank that can take advantage of rage more, I would highly recommend rad/ss. Rage can fill in for a lot of acc/dam slotting which allows you to damage proc out most of your attacks and rad armor brings 2 more AoE nukes in Rad Therapy and Ground Zero. Slotting a lot of your attacks with damage procs also helps reduce the impact of the -dmg from rage crashes.

 

I don't do heavily Proc'ed builds.

 

I don't want to deal with Rage at all.  It's not the -Def or the -End of the crash, it's the -Damage (-9990%).  It means the only attacks that will damage during the 10s of the crash are ones flagged to ignore Enhancement (some Prestige attacks).  Having to flip to them for 10s out of 120s is going to be awkward.  Or it's just not attack at all.

 

Rage is such a problem that I'm planning on only have 1 Super Strength Toon.  Currently that's an Inv/SS Tanker.  I am considering changing that.

 

I'll have to think some more on this.  I'd like to go with an Inv/SS Tanker.  But I trust @Psyonico's judgement here.  That Toon needs Rage.  Whether I'll put up with it....

 

 

Edited December 10 by Jacke

[Psyonico]

@Jackehhaving run rageless on an inv/as it's just not worth it solo.  On teams, if you focus on tanking you really only need Rage for hard targets, but solo is a slog.

 

I've run a few SS toons both with and without rage, I don't think I would want to do another rage-less toon without a major rework to the set, which I suspect is not coming.

[Nemu]

3 hours ago, Jacke said:

I don't do heavily Proc'ed builds.

If you change you mind and want a different perspective. Try Rad/SS

 

There are certain builds that will change your perception of the game. This is one of them.

[Jacke]

16 hours ago, Nemu said:

If you change you mind and want a different perspective.

 

Thank you for your assistance.

 

But I'd rather not invest in a heavily Proc'ed build which will require changing when the Aprocalypse comes, the expected major Proc rebalancing.  I keep my Procs to 1, rarely 2, in Powers, which should be okay.

[Sovera]

To be fair it's been five years, going on six. The Damocles' Sword only has as much power as you're willing to give it.

[tidge]

Any change to %damage at this point would wildly imbalance a large number of ATs, as the game's inherent reward mechanism is around doing damage/defeating critters. There is FAR more balance among all ATs because of %damage than there would be without them. Some folks want to have a meltdown and claim that there needs to be an Aprocalypse because of some sense of justice for a particular AT, but that is not how game balance works. A 10 second difference in some arbitrary clear mission times is nothing to get worked up about when without %damage some ATs would take tens-of-minutes longer to complete certain content than another AT.

 

There would need to too many radical changes to the game to address the sorts of imbalances that would be introduced by restricting %damage across the board, and I can't imagine any of those would either be palatable(*1) or leave us with a recognizably fun game that allows for tremendous amounts of build variety.

 

(*1) One crazy example: hard-capping +defense for DPS-oriented toons at 25% This would slow down certain ATs closer to mission clear times that other ATs. I don't know anybody that would think this is a good idea, but this sort of crazy suggestion is what I see as akin to trying to eliminate the potential to add damage to certain ATs via dedicated build choices... choices which have a trade-off associated with them.

 

 

[Jacke]

11 hours ago, Sovera said:

To be fair it's been five years, going on six. The Damocles' Sword only has as much power as you're willing to give it.

 

10 hours ago, tidge said:

Some folks want to have a meltdown and claim that there needs to be an Aprocalypse because of....

 

 

As others have pointed out, the fact (but not the details) of the Aprocalypse coming came from the Devs.  I have no idea how well it's been detailed by the Devs, but it is coming.  Fixes to at least one AT were pulled from testing because they needed the Aprocalypse to be done first.

 

All the other factors you mention should be adjusted at that time.  Perhaps you should joint the Closed Beta Testers so you can voice your well-thought out points when the Aprocalypse does come.

 

Edited December 13 by Jacke

[Sovera]

7 hours ago, Jacke said:

 

 

 

As others have pointed out, the fact (but not the details) of the Aprocalypse coming came from the Devs.  I have no idea how well it's been detailed by the Devs, but it is coming.  Fixes to at least one AT were pulled from testing because they needed the Aprocalypse to be done first.

 

All the other factors you mention should be adjusted at that time.  Perhaps you should joint the Closed Beta Testers so you can voice your well-thought out points when the Aprocalypse does come.

 

 

It has, yes, multiple times, over a period of many years. I'm on the Discord too.

 

If you want to worry about something that may come for your current build in the undefined future then that's an option. Otherwise using what's available now and then change when the time comes is also an option.

[tidge]

10 hours ago, Jacke said:

All the other factors you mention should be adjusted at that time.  Perhaps you should joint the Closed Beta Testers so you can voice your well-thought out points when the Aprocalypse does come.

 

I absolutely cannot imagine the game be "adjusted" so that XP/Inf/Drops come from anything other than defeating enemies, i.e. "doing damage". Even if we consider things NOT entirely related to doing damage for solo players (Prismatic Aethers tied to mission completion, badges for taking damage or being controlled, blah blah fishcakes), CoX would have to become a radically different game.

 

The game is in a *REALLY* good place right now, with the single most-dominant "complaint" about %damage being a variant of "That AT should be 1% better (by some arbitrary metric that may or may not reflect game play) than this AT". Those arguments completely ignore that without %damage it takes many other ATs an order of magnitude or greater amount of time to complete similar content. Anyone who wants to eliminate/reduce the way %damage works right now is, whether they admit it or not, trying to move the game to a place where solo ATs like defenders, controllers, what not, can't reap similar rewards in a similar time frame as other ATs. The game is in a good place right now, what is the possible positive motivation to move it from such a good place?

 

Looking at the mechanics of PPM, and the corner cases that appear to cause whatever heartache there is amongst the pearl-clutchers, the most realistic approach to "nerfing" %damage would be to eliminate global recharge bonuses (from enhancement set bonuses). This of course would cause every perma-dom to falter, and every player that feels perma-Hasten is an important achievement to go ballistic.

[Sanguinesun]

12 hours ago, Jacke said:

 

 

 

As others have pointed out, the fact (but not the details) of the Aprocalypse coming came from the Devs.  I have no idea how well it's been detailed by the Devs, but it is coming.  Fixes to at least one AT were pulled from testing because they needed the Aprocalypse to be done first.

 

All the other factors you mention should be adjusted at that time.  Perhaps you should joint the Closed Beta Testers so you can voice your well-thought out points when the Aprocalypse does come.

 

 

Complete bunk.

 

Most of that nonsense is just simply a segment of the player population, mostly spurred on by hatred towards AE farming, that keep trying to claim it is coming, claiming that for almost the entirety that HC's even been public.

 

Worry about the now and not the "its coming" silliness.

Edited December 13 by Sanguinesun