The Definitive Empathy Rework: it's time to fix this bad powerset

[Videra]

I feel it is worth saying that, while Shin's approach is prickly; she does have a point. Setting aside the observable stereotype of the empathy defender who has Healing Aura on Auto, the set is objectively outclassed. Nature, Pain, Thermal and Marine are just a few sets that take everything Empathy does (Barring AB), and does it better. The set lacks a major debuff, has a dud power in Recovery Aura, and a litany of other problem; like the three powers that are directly inferior to their counterparts in other sets.

I won't get too deep into it, being as the OP literally already has, but as it stands there's functionally zero reason to bring Empathy. It has, for all intents and purposes, no place; and Shin's suggested changes would immediately make it a strong pick. Would it replace Nature in a 4* comp? No. Would it be a viable alternative pick to something like elec, marine or thermal? Certainly.

Overall, while we can't make anyone with their hands at the wheel accept these suggestions; I politely implore you to consider this one. It's one of the most notable sub-par sets in the game - made more and more irrelevant by being outclassed by every new set added since the game's birth.

Edited September 25 by Videra

[JasperStone]

2 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

     Okay, I improved the set by focusing on the set and making Fortitude into a power that affects up to 255 targets instead of a single target.  This new power will now be easier to apply to more targets than the current version of Fortitude, which will benefit some players more than others.  I had already done exactly what you wanted, you just chose not to see it.

You did not.

You focused on making derogatory remarks about people's play style.

And when a Dev reprimanded you .... you talked down to them.

[JasperStone]

21 minutes ago, Videra said:

I feel it is worth saying that, while Shin's approach is prickly; she does have a point. Setting aside the observable stereotype of the empathy defender who has Healing Aura on Auto, the set is objectively outclassed. Nature, Pain, Thermal and Marine are just a few sets that take everything Empathy does (Barring AB), and does it better. The set lacks a major debuff, has a dud power in Recovery Aura, and a litany of other problem; like the three powers that are directly inferior to their counterparts in other sets.

I won't get too deep into it, being as the OP literally already has, but as it stands there's functionally zero reason to bring Empathy. It has, for all intents and purposes, no place; and Shin's suggested changes would immediately make it a strong pick. Would it replace Nature in a 4* comp? No. Would it be a viable alternative pick to something like elec, marine or thermal? Certainly.

Overall, while we can't make anyone with their hands at the wheel accept these suggestions; I politely implore you to consider this one. It's one of the most notable sub-par sets in the game - made more and more irrelevant by being outclassed by every new set added since the game's birth.

I feel it is worth saying that changes are necessary because the game has changed

I have said that.

Not this way.

Not this approach.

 

Basing changes on one's opinion of bad play sets a bad precedent.

Now, every powerset needs to be addressed this way.

Every single one.

Then we have a plain vanilla choice of options.

 

I'm afraid I have to disagree with zero reason to bring an Empath.

 

If the bar is *4 ... No.

There are players that don't play that content at all, so that shouldn't be a measure of the powerset.

Some play only with So's

 

Not subpar and still viable.

[lemming]

I don't know about modifying a set based on badly played characters.    Empathy can use some work, but I think doing a side by side with Pain being played by good players would be a better starting point for adjustments.   (I have both types, but honestly, I choose it based on concept more, which is probably part of the point)

[Trickshooter]

Hey! For the most part, I completely agree: Empathy is a set in need of attention. I would never call it bad; Empathy is a perfectly functional set that is still good at what it does, it has just been left behind by the meta.

 

I agree that Heal Aura is mostly okay and similar to other PBAoE heals.

 

Personally though, I think Heal Other, along with Soothe and Cauterize, could stand an additional small effect. Yes, they heal more than ST Heals with effects like Alkaloid and O2 Boost, but those heals other effects can be significant (especially O2 Boost). I would consider adding a small EndDiscount buff to the target for Heal Other and Soothe. Haven't really thought about Cauterize, though.

 

With Share Pain, the Pain user is taking on that... pain and is using it to fuel their anger, which boosts their Damage. Perfectly thematic. For Absorb Pain, I try and remember that Empathy is supposed to be like Emotion Control, and if they're taking away someone's pain, what is that doing for the Empathy user? I'm not sure +Resistance is totally the best fit. I feel like taking on someone else's pain would maybe be... inspiring? To me that fits more with the idea of Mez Protection for the Empathy user. Or maybe the effect could change depending on the Archetype that was targeted?

 

I agree that, over time, Resurrect has become the worst Rez in the game. I would also like to see it grant buffs to the target, with no penalty to them. However, I think it would be thematic for the Empathy user to get penalties instead. Of course, not as significant as other penalties and definitely not for as long. I'm personally of the opinion that it's BONKERS that Poison and Rad Defenders can debuff their teammates base ToHit chance in half for 45 seconds! In my Spreadsheet of Support Suggestions™ I was considering a scale 3 damage buff and scale 2 tohit buff to your target for 60 seconds, and half those values as debuffs to the Empathy user for 15 seconds.

 

Clear Mind: Same thought, add Psi Resistance.

 

For Fortitude, I also think it could become an AoE. Again, in my spreadsheet of suggestions, I was considering suggesting it be a Targeted AoE (so requiring an ally) with a 30 ft radius, the effects still do not affect the caster, increasing the recharge to 240 seconds, and then reducing the buff values to:

 

Def: Scale 1.5 -> Scale 1.0

Dmg: Scale 2.5 -> Scale 1.6

ToHit: Scale 1.5 -> Scale 1.0

 

For the auras, I also think combining them would be best; I even have it named Revitalizing Aura, as well lol

 

And then Adrenalin Boost is great and perfectly fine.

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

On 9/22/2024 at 8:21 AM, Shin Magmus said:

Empathy hasn't been buffed once, ever, and it's genuinely incompetent sad that Empathy languishes like it does.  This problem is exacerbated by the high popularity of Empathy but the low skill level and intelligence of the average Empath.

 

On 9/22/2024 at 8:21 AM, Shin Magmus said:

Bopper and Captain Powerhouse, you can feel free to use my Healing Hands idea since it's better than anything you'd come up with.  I'm very interested in any and all feedback.

 

Quote

I feel it is worth saying that, while Shin's approach is prickly; she does have a point.

 

This not being excellent to each other or following the rules.  Guideline #1 of the COC says: "Do not abuse or harass others.  This includes players, Homecoming staff, and players or staff from other communities"

 

In this very thread, a dev with the power to make your suggested changes basically told you the same thing and suggested data over insulting other players.  You decided to double down instead.

 

Please stop insulting players or anyone else.

 

P.S.  I have noticed several people use strikeout to "edit" their posts.  The strikeout doesn't make it better.  It shows that you know you shouldn't but did anyway.  For moderation purposes, the strikeout absolves no one but does add evidence of consciousness of guilt.

[Videra]

20 minutes ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

Shortening

 

Ayo I'm just saying she's got a point about the powerset, Be Excellent To Each Other!

[lemming]

3 hours ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

I have noticed several people use strikeout to "edit" their posts. 

Oh yea, I forgot about strikeouts.  I should use those when I use the wrong words and correct it later. 😄

[Shin Magmus]

     When I see people point out individual powers, such as Ressurect being the worst ally Rez now (I agree), I think about all of Empathy as a set and try to find any strong points for it.  The succinct way to explain the problem is that Empathy is dead-last in multiple categories.  Empathy should be the best at something to compensate but it's the worst at multiple things for no benefit.

 

Empathy:

Debuffs: 0/10 worst in the game

Buffs: 6/10 comfortably behind actually good sets (like Nature and Marine)

Heals: 9/10 still not the best, losing to Pain overtly and Nature over time (because of bloom)

Rezzing: 7/10 it has a functional rez but the worst one in the game, and can't AoE rez

Attacks: 0/10 it offers no ways to deal damage or slot procs

Player Experience when an Empath joins your team: NaN/10

Desirability on Advanced Mode team comps: 0/10

 

     Most of the other powersets in the game are really good at something in exchange for other stuff.  For example: Trick Arrow is great at debuffing but also dealing direct damage, but obviously it has 0/10 for Healing and Rezzing.  That's all fine and dandy because these other powersets have functional reasons to play them.  Empathy right now just doesn't have any functional reason to be chosen, only theme.

[JasperStone]

"Empathy gives you the ability to heal and aid allies as well as yourself. Empathy has no offensive powers, but its heals and buffs are unmatched."

Straight from the Wiki, and I still agree with it.

Powersets need to be examined without comparing them to what other sets do.

 

6 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

Debuffs: 0/10 worst in the game

Not what this set. So that can go off the list.

 

6 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

Buffs: 6/10 comfortably behind actually good sets (like Nature and Marine)

6/10 is your opinion ... mine is 8/10 or 9/10 because, yes, when you do compare, some sets are faster ...*shrug*

However...

• Filling your Green Bar is a buff. I point to Absorb Pain, where you sacrifice your hitpoints and self-healing to aid a teammate. Not sure any powerset does that.
• RAs .... Green and Blue Bar Buff. Let's look at the Blue Bar. Mitigating endurance has been a topic of discussion in a few recent threads. 
• Clear Mind .... Buff
• Fortitude and AB ... Buffs

6 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

Heals: 9/10 still not the best, losing to Pain overtly and Nature over time (because of bloom)

Your opinion ...this IS what Empathy is so 10/10 for me

3 dedicated Healing powers.

Yes, it would be nice IF they added a little to these, but that means you must take away something. Resulting in Slower Recharge and higher Endurance Cost

Would it be nice if Healing Aura had an Enemy debuff? Sure, but what is the cost to the power? Less healing? Higher recharge? Higher End cost?

I point to Absorb Pain again. It has a tiny endurance cost, and I think even the manual warns about overusing this power. 

 

6 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

Rezzing: 7/10 it has a functional rez but the worst one in the game, and can't AoE rez

I will almost agree with 7/10 ... but see it more as a 8/10. Full bars and debt protection. Not the worst in the game.

Because of experience, I would like this to be:

• TP to me. Often, I have to deal with a melee type who goes off to the other side of the map and dies. Or somebody goes down amid combat, and I want to rez them out of the fray. This saves me a power slot. I don't have to take tp.
• If we add other buffs ... what are we taking away? 

6 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

Attacks: 0/10 it offers no ways to deal damage or slot procs

Not what the set is. So that goes off the list.

I want a diversification of set options, but given what empathy is, I am not sure that it is feasible. 

Alot of players are all about procs ... I am more about the set bonuses.

Clear Mind and Rez take no sets and it would nice if they did 

Edited September 26 by JasperStone

[JasperStone]

6 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

Player Experience when an Empath joins your team: NaN/10

Desirability on Advanced Mode team comps: 0/10

Opinion

And desirability on advanced mode shouldn't be a factor.

Alot of people don't play advanced mode.

 

6 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

Empathy right now just doesn't have any functional reason to be chosen, only theme

Opinion

Edited September 26 by JasperStone

[Indystruck]

Everything here objectively improves the set! Happy to see it.

[arcane]

I agree with combining the RA’s into one power. I disagree with all of the other suggestions. I especially disagree with the suggestion to make Fortitude an AoE.

[Shin Magmus]

Healing Hands: Reach out and Heal someone.

 

[Player-1]

11 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

     When I see people point out individual powers, such as Ressurect being the worst ally Rez now (I agree), I think about all of Empathy as a set and try to find any strong points for it.  The succinct way to explain the problem is that Empathy is dead-last in multiple categories.  Empathy should be the best at something to compensate but it's the worst at multiple things for no benefit.

 

Empathy:

Debuffs: 0/10 worst in the game

Buffs: 6/10 comfortably behind actually good sets (like Nature and Marine)

Heals: 9/10 still not the best, losing to Pain overtly and Nature over time (because of bloom)

Rezzing: 7/10 it has a functional rez but the worst one in the game, and can't AoE rez

Attacks: 0/10 it offers no ways to deal damage or slot procs

Player Experience when an Empath joins your team: NaN/10

Desirability on Advanced Mode team comps: 0/10

 

     Most of the other powersets in the game are really good at something in exchange for other stuff.  For example: Trick Arrow is great at debuffing but also dealing direct damage, but obviously it has 0/10 for Healing and Rezzing.  That's all fine and dandy because these other powersets have functional reasons to play them.  Empathy right now just doesn't have any functional reason to be chosen, only theme.

 

This is a great way to convey what you see as the powerset's issues. Personally, I agree that Empathy does need a look though as a legacy powerset any changes made need to be carefully done. Drawing direct comparisons to its peers to back up your points gives a clearer picture of your ideas.

 

 

6 hours ago, JasperStone said:

Powersets need to be examined without comparing them to what other sets do.

 

Hello JasperStone,

 

Yes and no. Powersets should stand on their own merit, but in order to do so they also need to stand on their own compared to their peers. That necessitates comparison to other powersets, especially those similar to itself.

[JasperStone]

4 hours ago, Player-1 said:

Powersets should stand on their own merit, but in order to do so they also need to stand on their own compared to their peers. That necessitates comparison to other powersets, especially those similar to itself.

Thank you. 

In bold is more of my point. Again, thank you.

 

Making changes because a set is not doing what other sets are doing is not something I am not for.

Yes, legacy sets need to be addressed.

Empathy among them. I agree with that.

Just not these changes and also the why given.

 

This set means more to me than I have addressed.

This was my first AT and my main on Live. It's the first one I remade.

Like the OP Both of us have played the set extensively.

Is my opinion more right? Hardly

It does give me just as much right to voice my opinion as the OP.

In the forums I have a right to speak my mind

This is not Gatekeeping. Not at all.

 

I will repeat it: change is needed. Not these changes and not the reason why.

 

I find the way these recommended changes have been presented abhorrent and unlike anything I have experienced in the forums.

Now and Live

Repugnant: The entire presentation is off-putting. Despite other disagreements in the forums, I still felt heard.

A self-declared master of a powerset,  a definitive reworking

Claiming all this support of the reworking ... 

 

There is a growing sense of division in the forums and in-game, where only certain players are considered worthy of being heard. It becomes tiresome.

 

If the OP is RPing, fine... sorta. But not really.

If this is trolling ...ugh.

 

I used to play regularly with multiple alternate characters, but now I have a new job with significant responsibilities, so I don't have as much time to play. I am not known to anyone in the forums because my forum name is different from my in-game name. It might surprise some of the more vocal forum members to learn that I have played with many of them multiple times on different alts.

 

As always, I appreciate the work of the Devs and GMs.

Like most, I teared up when I heard the log-in music for the first time in a long time, knowing I would be home shortly.

Thank you for providing a space to let me speak my mind about aspects of the game.

Thank you for the opportunity to have a space to give life to all the characters in my head

The journey with CoH was lovely.

 

Edited September 26 by JasperStone
edited explanation

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

[Indystruck]

2 hours ago, JasperStone said:

Thank you. 

In bold is more of my point. Again, thank you.

 

 

look this is all well and good but it has absolutely nothing to do with the balance of the set

[Shin Magmus]

5 hours ago, Indystruck said:

 

look this is all well and good but it has absolutely nothing to do with the balance of the set

     His posts were never actually about the balance of the set.  It's not really okay, but he can do whatever he wants. 

[JasperStone]

I have stated within my posts that the set needs to change.

Repeatedly stated it.

As a Legacy set, the game is in a different place now.

Your changes strip the set of its uniqueness and make it a generic set.

 

You cite external reasons to make those changes:

• Play *4 content (this itself is problematic as I see teams being built around specific ATs)
• poor ability of players to play the set

None of that should be considered.

If it does this time, then every powerset needs to be addressed this way.

Precedent matters.

 

You purposely misrepresent the powerset and its powers and how it contributes to a team.

That, again, can become a precedent for other players to do the same to make changes.

 

I do want to balance the set for where the game is now.

This can be done by looking at other sets and making changes to Empathy that make it akin to them but still maintain its uniqueness.

Your changes do not that.

 

You and others have also misrepresented my response to the proposed changes.

As I was reminded recently, this is a forum. ALL topics are open for discussion—for and against.

I see more and more people getting upset that they post something they think brilliant and get pushback on it.

We are not minions

We won't blindly cheer every proposal. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Indystruck]

Empathy is already the generic healbot set, that is it's current identity. If you want green number go up, you pick empathy. You can't make empathy more generic because it has no uniqueness, other than the fact it is arguably the weakest support set.

[JasperStone]

Its uniqueness is that it's Team-focused Heals and Buffs.

It is only a generic Heal-bot if you play it that way.

 

Every AT can be turned into a Generic.

A Tank just Taunting - doing nothing else. I just played with one recently. They never threw a punch, lol.

A Controller just spamming holding with no concern where mobsare.

A Blaster just hitting the nuke and running out - doing nothing else.

Etc. 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 27 by JasperStone
added other generic ATs

[Shin Magmus]

     Jasper, please stop spam replying to every comment on this thread.  Nobody wants to debate you.  Please just chill out; perhaps make your own thread to discuss what you think Empathy's identity is or the woes you have with the community, and have that separate discussion there.  I will elevate the issue if you make me. 

[Indystruck]

13 minutes ago, JasperStone said:

Its uniqueness is that it's Team-focused Heals and Buffs.

 

List of sets in the same category that provide team buffs and a heal:

Dark Miasma

Electrical Affinity

Kinetics

Marine Affinity

Nature Affinity

Pain Domination

Time Manipulation

[JasperStone]

1 hour ago, Indystruck said:

 

List of sets in the same category that provide team buffs and a heal:

Dark Miasma

Electrical Affinity

Kinetics

Marine Affinity

Nature Affinity

Pain Domination

Time Manipulation

Thank you.

But ....

Dark Miasma - Focus the dark power of the Netherworld to weaken your foes. Dark Miasma focuses on draining your opponent

Electrical Affinity -  control and manipulate electricity to aid your allies and weaken your enemies. 

Kinetics - manipulate the potential energy found in objects to aid your allies or weaken your foes.

Marine Affinity - Command the various powers of the ocean to buff your allies, and wash away your enemies

Nature Affinity - command over the forces of nature and are able to call forth primal energies to aid your allies and hinder your foes

Pain Domination - Ultimately this grants the user powerful healing, buffing and debuffing powers. Its healing output is unmatched

Time Manipulation - Time Manipulation allows the wielder to inflict crippling debuffs, buff and heal allies, and also be able to empower effects on single targets through careful use of Time Crawl and Temporal Selection

 

So yes, they heal. And they DeBuff your foes.

If you want that, play the sets that do that.

I have heard that advice in other threads about a player not liking how Powerset1 doesn't perform like Powerset2.

Well ... play powerset 2.

 

Empathy - Empathy gives you the ability to heal and aid allies as well as yourself. Empathy has no offensive powers, but its heals and buffs are unmatched*.

The team focus is its uniqueness.

 

1 hour ago, Indystruck said:

team buffs and a heal

Empathy has three heals.

DM and Kinetics requires targeting foes so they can miss

Nature has two minor heals 

Pain does very well with 3 and an aura - evil side of Empathy - I run it and like it.

Time does well with 2 plus a good regen.

Why does Empathy have to be like them?

 

 

I will say yet again.

Empathy does need addressing.

Bolster the healing somehow. Add aspects that other powersets don't have. Can Absorb get stacked via an Empath? Can you get a FULL bar of Absorb via an Empath or by having multiple Emapths on a team?

Bolster the buffs.

Consider adding something like Natures Bloom that boosts certain powers or aspects of powers.

OR The more Empaths on a team the greater healing ability etc. (with a reasonable cap)

Make the Green numbers from an Empath unobtainable by any comparable powerset

Keep it Team oriented.

Keep out any offense.

 

*but its heals and buffs are unmatched* this was written prior to some of these sets ... buffs are so now not so much

Edited September 27 by JasperStone
Added Heals from other Powersets