Enhancements Questions

[TheMultiVitamin]

So I've been playing for a long while and I'm still a bit lost on a few things regarding Enhancements.

So I know that SO's are twice as effective as DO's, and at maximum give a bonus of 38.3% at +3. But so far IO's just, don't seem to give as big of a bonus? Like a level 50+3 SO will give a bonus of 38.3% but a level 50 IO will just give a bonus of 25.5%, so why would I slot an IO, even more so an IO from a Set which has even lower bonuses but the only benefit being really minor bonuses if you have more of that set slotted?

Another is that I'm looking at the wiki page about this as well, and it says a Level 50 Triple Set IO will generally give a bonus of 63.6%, what does that even mean? Cause my brain wants to say "Slotting 3 of the Enhancements from that set, with the same bonuses, adds up to that" but then that just means it's 3 slots to do the work of 2 SO's, so I figure I must be missing something here.

Also I understand that IO's can be parts of Sets, but honestly the bonuses from the sets just seem so minor and thus not worth it to me, so why do it other then to just have a minor bump in those areas overall for your character?

Alongside that, why slot IO set enhancements when the bonuses are even lower, where as for example an IO from a set with 2 modifiers is just, weaker overall to just slotting a single modifier non-set IO, which is weaker then slotting just a +3 SO?

I feel like I'm missing something in regards to this and the wiki page and the table doesn't really answer my questions, and honestly even seems like their math is wrong when I look at that table on the wiki page and compare it to the IO's in the Auction House.

Also I'm aware that one of the benefits of IO's is that you can't out level them either, but even with that their bonuses are still just much lower then SO's anyway.

Edited November 8 by TheMultiVitamin

[Akalabeth]

"even more so an IO from a Set which has even lower bonuses but the only benefit being really minor bonuses if you have more of that set slotted?"

 

Oh dear...

 

minor bonuses add up... that's all I will say.

[Akalabeth]

Are you mostly playing DPS like blasters or something that you feel need no defenses?

 

I don't think you can get defense "capped" on ATs without set bonuses.  I also don't think you can get things like perma hasten and such without set bonuses.  You miss out on the special enhancements like panacea +hp +end and shield wall +res.

[Snarky]

At about level 30 slotting sets is a huge bonus compared to I/Os.  There are some caveats.  It helps to have 3-4+ pieces of the set.  (Set after all).  Almost every set piece will give bonuses to 2-4 different attributes.  And these “a little here, a little there” really add up.  Picking set bonuses that seem “okay” for one set bonus, then stacking that across your whole build adds up to really improved performance.  Take ranged defense. You get 3-4% off a set.  But if you get 5-7 sets with ranged defense….   Global recharge is like that, and leads to Doms getting permanent Domination.  No one set bonus does it.  But they stack it sometimes over 100% global recharge….

[Ukase]

So, I have a bit more to say than "minor bonuses add up.."

Here's a level 50 common damage IO - 42.4%. 
I'm not at all clear where you're getting 25.5%. 

Your SO figure is spot on. For that schedule of enhancements. 

Huh? What? 

If you're in the habit of going "upgrade" on your SOs, all go to +3. But, it's not a case of no matter what level you are, the SO will boost the attribute 38.3%. 
There's this thing called "schedule", and there are 4 schedules for SOs. 
A, B, C and D. 
The visual on the HC Wiki breaks it down a lot more clearly than my many, many words. 
https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Enhancements#Enhancement_Aspects_and_Schedules

 

If you still have a question after taking a look, I am more than happy to answer. 
 

[TheMultiVitamin]

37 minutes ago, Akalabeth said:

"even more so an IO from a Set which has even lower bonuses but the only benefit being really minor bonuses if you have more of that set slotted?"

 

Oh dear...

 

minor bonuses add up... that's all I will say.

 

25 minutes ago, Snarky said:

At about level 30 slotting sets is a huge bonus compared to I/Os.  There are some caveats.  It helps to have 3-4+ pieces of the set.  (Set after all).  Almost every set piece will give bonuses to 2-4 different attributes.  And these “a little here, a little there” really add up.  Picking set bonuses that seem “okay” for one set bonus, then stacking that across your whole build adds up to really improved performance.  Take ranged defense. You get 3-4% off a set.  But if you get 5-7 sets with ranged defense….   Global recharge is like that, and leads to Doms getting permanent Domination.  No one set bonus does it.  But they stack it sometimes over 100% global recharge….

It's really that notable? Cause like for example looking at Crushing Impact, at 3 it increases Max Health by 1.13%, which is the trend for other sets that also increase Max HP, but having 5 sets at 3 would just mean a 5.65% increase in health which isn't really anything at all to my eyes, or when a set increases a resistance 1.5% or 2.5%, still not that much of an increase even with a lot of sets doing it.

 

And how would global recharge result in over 100% when the bonuses I set in sets are just, 3.75% or 7%? Wouldn't you need over 10 sets, with powers slotted to reach those set bonuses, just for 70% global recharge?
 

 

31 minutes ago, Akalabeth said:

Are you mostly playing DPS like blasters or something that you feel need no defenses?

 

I don't think you can get defense "capped" on ATs without set bonuses.  I also don't think you can get things like perma hasten and such without set bonuses.  You miss out on the special enhancements like panacea +hp +end and shield wall +res.

My current is a Brute with SR as my secondary, so I've just been slotting Defense and Endurance Reduction for those. And yea I saw some that give procs and the like, though some didn't make sense to me, like I read a guide about slotting Panacea Chance for +HP/Endurance into the Health inherent for Endurance gain, but it says just for the target of healing on the IO while Health is just your regular regen rate isn't it?

 

 

21 minutes ago, Ukase said:

So, I have a bit more to say than "minor bonuses add up.."

Here's a level 50 common damage IO - 42.4%. 
I'm not at all clear where you're getting 25.5%. 

Your SO figure is spot on. For that schedule of enhancements. 

Huh? What? 

If you're in the habit of going "upgrade" on your SOs, all go to +3. But, it's not a case of no matter what level you are, the SO will boost the attribute 38.3%. 
There's this thing called "schedule", and there are 4 schedules for SOs. 
A, B, C and D. 
The visual on the HC Wiki breaks it down a lot more clearly than my many, many words. 
https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Enhancements#Enhancement_Aspects_and_Schedules

 

If you still have a question after taking a look, I am more than happy to answer. 
 

Ah, I was looking at the Defense Buff level 50 IO which only gives a 25.5% Buff to defense, while a +3 SO Defense Buff gives +23%. 

I did look at the schedules on the Wiki but they just confused me, though that might've been early morning brain lag cause looking at it again is making more sense now.

But now my question is why slot a Set IO (aside from the Set Bonuses and Procs) when for example level 50 Crushing Impacts Damage/Endurance just gives 26.5% Damage and 26.5% Endurance, when it'd just be better to slot 2 +3 SO's or regular level 50 IO's of that type?

Also still what does "Triple Set IO 63.60" mean on the table?

Edited November 8 by TheMultiVitamin

[jprewitt73]

8 minutes ago, TheMultiVitamin said:

But now my question is why slot a Set IO (aside from the Set Bonuses and Procs) when for example level 50 Crushing Impacts Damage/Endurance just gives 26.5% Damage and 26.5% Endurance, when it'd just be better to slot 2 +3 SO's or regular level 50 IO's of that type?

Because that one piece from Crushing Impact adds to both in just one IO. You need two SOs to get similar figures. Standard slotting for attacks for SOs is 1 Acc, 3 Dam, 1 Rech, and 1 End Redux. You can get all of that (almost identical numbers) with 5 IO set pieces along with the bonuses they give. Slot 5 attacks with Crushing Impact and they are all giving stacking bonuses which will definitely make an impact. 

 

 

[TheMultiVitamin]

7 minutes ago, jprewitt73 said:

Because that one piece from Crushing Impact adds to both in just one IO. You need two SOs to get similar figures. Standard slotting for attacks for SOs is 1 Acc, 3 Dam, 1 Rech, and 1 End Redux. You can get all of that (almost identical numbers) with 5 IO set pieces along with the bonuses they give. Slot 5 attacks with Crushing Impact and they are all giving stacking bonuses which will definitely make an impact. 

 

 

I can understand that, but like using the same example, Crushing Impact Damage/Endurance gives 26.5% for both in one IO at level 50, but a single level 50 Damage IO gives 42.4% Damage and a single level 50 Endurance Reduction IO gives 42.4%. So why slot Crushing impact, even if it's 1 less slot and giving Set Bonuses, for nearly half the benefit being gone? Unless you mean that like, slotting the whole Crushing Impact set would result in much more damage then slotting 3 Level 50 Damage IO's (since the rule of 3 applies) overall?

Edited November 8 by TheMultiVitamin

[Ukase]

1 minute ago, TheMultiVitamin said:

But now my question is why slot a Set IO (aside from the Set Bonuses and Procs) when for example level 50 Crushing Impacts Damage/Endurance just gives 26.5% Damage and 26.5% Endurance, when it'd just be better to slot 2 +3 SO's or regularly level 50 IO's of that type?

So, the tough part is - sometimes it won't make sense to do that. It all depends on your "combat attributes", and the goals you have for them. 

In some cases, it can make perfect sense to slot 1 acc, 3 damage and 1 or 2 recharge. But, sometimes, it makes more sense to determine when diminishing returns kicks in. 

Diminishing returns is tough to explain. There are "rules of thumb", but we don't just play with our thumbs. The saying goes, any more than 3 SOs is a waste. 

Consider this particular power, Fire Blast: 

 

So, they're purples, they're supposed to be "Superior". The best thing they have going for them are the 10% global recharge. For others that may not be aware, Global recharge means EVERY power now has the recharge time boosted by 10%. (and that's not as fantastic as you might first think, given the way the game does the math) 

But, I've got 5/6 pieces in the set in the power now. What does it mean? Why use it? Well, for a corruptor, the secondaries are generally buffs or debuffs or a mix of both. Sometimes, it's advantageous to have certain powers recharged ASAP. Still, for this corruptor, why not just slot one acc, 2 dam and 2 recharge? 

There's so many options. And let's take a look at the boosts the apocs do for this attack: 

 

See the red numbers? This set is basically a poor design, other than the set bonuses which include: 

There's a lot there worth having on any character! And, because purple/very rare sets are automatically attuned, you get that recharge bonus and the rest of those bonuses when you're exemplared down, too. 

Now, if I find I need more slots for another power, I have options. 
I can forgo this set, and go this way: 

These are called respectively, a D-Sync and the other two are Hami-Os. (Hamidon Origin) 
Some are super expensive like this specific D-Sync. Acc/threat/recharge. 
It's the only "special" enhancement that boosts Accuracy and recharge BOTH in one enhancement. How much? 38.295%, rounded up 38.3. 

Mind you, I'd have to be super desperate to resort to this, because the acc/threat/recharge enhancement would cost me a patient bid of 300M. And to boost to 53 would cost me closer to 1.4 - 1.8M
These are very rare. Most folks will put them in fold space, and not a blast. But it would save me two slots, and the resulting figures look pretty good: 

 

CAVEAT: I am trusting the numbers I see from this program called Mids Reborn. Generally, they're accurate, but sometimes, they make a mistake here or there and you can get super confused. 

But, the best thing about this tool, Mids, is you can experiment with different slotting strategies and see which gives you the best dps AND the best odds of surviving long enough to dish out that dps. 

   

 

 83.32 is better than the above - but look at the recharge. Not so good. In a power like Fire Blast that recharges fairly quickly anyway, the common IOs might be the better approach. Only YOU can answer what's best for your playstyle AND your budget. 

 

There are a lot of other players that know the math inside and out and can probably explain things much better, and certainly with fewer words than me, but I think this is enough to get the idea of why the set bonuses are worth pursuing. 

 

[Psyonico]

1 hour ago, TheMultiVitamin said:

a level 50 IO will just give a bonus of 25.5%,

 

This is not accurate, unless you mean an io with 3 effects (which I still think is not quite this number).

 

(Doing this from memory) A common level 50 IO gives well over 40% boost, a 50+5 gives over 50% boost (assuming schedule A)

 

If you do mean something with 3 effects, then you end up better off as well, since you're getting something between a DO and an SO for 3 aspects.

[Snarky]

50 minutes ago, TheMultiVitamin said:

 

It's really that notable? Cause like for example looking at Crushing Impact, at 3 it increases Max Health by 1.13%, which is the trend for other sets that also increase Max HP, but having 5 sets at 3 would just mean a 5.65% increase in health which isn't really anything at all to my eyes, or when a set increases a resistance 1.5% or 2.5%, still not that much of an increase even with a lot of sets doing it.

 

And how would global recharge result in over 100% when the bonuses I set in sets are just, 3.75% or 7%? Wouldn't you need over 10 sets, with powers slotted to reach those set bonuses, just for 70% global recharge?
 

 

My current is a Brute with SR as my secondary, so I've just been slotting Defense and Endurance Reduction for those. And yea I saw some that give procs and the like, though some didn't make sense to me, like I read a guide about slotting Panacea Chance for +HP/Endurance into the Health inherent for Endurance gain, but it says just for the target of healing on the IO while Health is just your regular regen rate isn't it?

 

 

Ah, I was looking at the Defense Buff level 50 IO which only gives a 25.5% Buff to defense, while a +3 SO Defense Buff gives +23%. 

I did look at the schedules on the Wiki but they just confused me, though that might've been early morning brain lag cause looking at it again is making more sense now.

But now my question is why slot a Set IO (aside from the Set Bonuses and Procs) when for example level 50 Crushing Impacts Damage/Endurance just gives 26.5% Damage and 26.5% Endurance, when it'd just be better to slot 2 +3 SO's or regular level 50 IO's of that type?

Also still what does "Triple Set IO 63.60" mean on the table?

Yes. It adds up. But you have to have build goals.  Not just random bonuses.  Take my resistance dark Brute.  Who chased resistance bonuses and can tank Lord Recluse on a master ms liberty.  Or, again, perma doms chasing global hasten. Or my 100% ranged attack blasters who build for 45-60% ranged defense.  It does indeed add up

[TheMultiVitamin]

47 minutes ago, Ukase said:

So, the tough part is - sometimes it won't make sense to do that. It all depends on your "combat attributes", and the goals you have for them. 

In some cases, it can make perfect sense to slot 1 acc, 3 damage and 1 or 2 recharge. But, sometimes, it makes more sense to determine when diminishing returns kicks in. 

Diminishing returns is tough to explain. There are "rules of thumb", but we don't just play with our thumbs. The saying goes, any more than 3 SOs is a waste. 

Consider this particular power, Fire Blast: 

 

So, they're purples, they're supposed to be "Superior". The best thing they have going for them are the 10% global recharge. For others that may not be aware, Global recharge means EVERY power now has the recharge time boosted by 10%. (and that's not as fantastic as you might first think, given the way the game does the math) 

But, I've got 5/6 pieces in the set in the power now. What does it mean? Why use it? Well, for a corruptor, the secondaries are generally buffs or debuffs or a mix of both. Sometimes, it's advantageous to have certain powers recharged ASAP. Still, for this corruptor, why not just slot one acc, 2 dam and 2 recharge? 

There's so many options. And let's take a look at the boosts the apocs do for this attack: 

 

See the red numbers? This set is basically a poor design, other than the set bonuses which include: 

There's a lot there worth having on any character! And, because purple/very rare sets are automatically attuned, you get that recharge bonus and the rest of those bonuses when you're exemplared down, too. 

Now, if I find I need more slots for another power, I have options. 
I can forgo this set, and go this way: 

These are called respectively, a D-Sync and the other two are Hami-Os. (Hamidon Origin) 
Some are super expensive like this specific D-Sync. Acc/threat/recharge. 
It's the only "special" enhancement that boosts Accuracy and recharge BOTH in one enhancement. How much? 38.295%, rounded up 38.3. 

Mind you, I'd have to be super desperate to resort to this, because the acc/threat/recharge enhancement would cost me a patient bid of 300M. And to boost to 53 would cost me closer to 1.4 - 1.8M
These are very rare. Most folks will put them in fold space, and not a blast. But it would save me two slots, and the resulting figures look pretty good: 

 

CAVEAT: I am trusting the numbers I see from this program called Mids Reborn. Generally, they're accurate, but sometimes, they make a mistake here or there and you can get super confused. 

But, the best thing about this tool, Mids, is you can experiment with different slotting strategies and see which gives you the best dps AND the best odds of surviving long enough to dish out that dps. 

   

 

 83.32 is better than the above - but look at the recharge. Not so good. In a power like Fire Blast that recharges fairly quickly anyway, the common IOs might be the better approach. Only YOU can answer what's best for your playstyle AND your budget. 

 

There are a lot of other players that know the math inside and out and can probably explain things much better, and certainly with fewer words than me, but I think this is enough to get the idea of why the set bonuses are worth pursuing. 

 

Oh okay, so ultimately while you do want Set Bonuses for stuff, it generally depends on what you're trying to build for specifically (which is kind of obvious in hindsight). So if you want to just go pure damage on something, then sure 2-3 normal DMG IO's are fine, but if you're trying to get 2/3 other stats up higher then sets are generally better because they also give you the passive global bonuses from their set bonuses, got it, while the HO's and other special kinds of enhancements (of which I'm aware exist but couldn't mentally figure out a use-case until your post) are sometimes better depending exactly on what you're trying to build specifically for that power.

Also yea I have MIDS Reborn but haven't touched it yet cause of my struggles with understanding the benefits of IO's and Sets opposed to SO's.

 

46 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

 

This is not accurate, unless you mean an io with 3 effects (which I still think is not quite this number).

 

(Doing this from memory) A common level 50 IO gives well over 40% boost, a 50+5 gives over 50% boost (assuming schedule A)

 

If you do mean something with 3 effects, then you end up better off as well, since you're getting something between a DO and an SO for 3 aspects.

The 25.5% was from looking at a LVL 50 Defense Buff non-set IO, which didn't click to me that the different schedules had different scaling until an earlier post by @Ukase that showed a LVL 50 Damage non-set IO having a 42.4% bonus.

 

 

23 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Yes. It adds up. But you have to have build goals.  Not just random bonuses.  Take my resistance dark Brute.  Who chased resistance bonuses and can tank Lord Recluse on a master ms liberty.  Or, again, perma doms chasing global hasten. Or my 100% ranged attack blasters who build for 45-60% ranged defense.  It does indeed add up

 

It never even occurred to me that the while sets will generally have some similar set bonuses like Global Recharge, regen, max hp, etc, but the *amount* of that bonus varies from set to set. My brain really struggling today gods 😭


Thanks a ton to all of you helping to answer my questions! Though I still haven no clue what this all means



As in what exactly is a Triple Set IO and a Dual Set IO?

Edited November 8 by TheMultiVitamin

[tidge]

Many good points were in the responses, but the walls of text make it hard for me to quote out what I think are the key points:

 

1) Enhancement sets (with multiple attributes per enhancement) help to reach and/or avoid the point at which Enhancement Diversification would make using non-set pieces a losing game... at least in terms of slot investment. Fewer slots to get similar goals means that there are more slots to go around.

 

2) Set bonuses *do* add up. Mileage varies on which bonuses to pursue.

 

For example: I typically find that for non-Tanker/Brute (i.e. low HP) characters, chasing Regeneration doesn't make much sense. In contrast: +MaxHP almost always makes sense. Most characters can benefit from more Recovery, Global Endurance Discounts, and MaxEnd.

 

Getting global Accuracy bonuses means that when facing those +4 enemies that also happen to debuff you, you aren't near the floor of ToHit chances.

 

 

 

[Hedgefund]

1 hour ago, TheMultiVitamin said:

As in what exactly is a Triple Set IO and a Dual Set IO?

 

A "Triple Set IO" means something boosts 3 attributes, like Accuracy/Damage/Recharge.  This, for example:

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Ragnarok:_Damage/Recharge/Accuracy_(Superior)

 

A "Dual Set IO" means one that boosts 2 attributes, like Damage/Recharge.  This, for example:

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Ragnarok:_Damage/Recharge_(Superior)

 

So when the above table says "Superior Triple Set IO" and shows 79.5, that's a result of 26.5 (accuracy) + 26.5 (damage) + 26.5 (recharge).  The same follows for the double.

Edited November 8 by Hedgefund

[Without_Pause]

1 hour ago, TheMultiVitamin said:

As in what exactly is a Triple Set IO and a Dual Set IO?

How many aspects are boosted. A dual Level 50 set totals at 53%. That means each aspect, ie Damage and Recharge, are boosted by 26.5%. For a triple set Level 50, that means 63.60% boosts Acc, Damage, Recharge by 21.2% each. If you slot both of them, you are now getting 21.2% Acc and 47.7% Damage and Recharge. Compare that to a Level IO single where those two slots give you 42.4% in Damage and Recharge and no two set bonus.

[Nerio72]

Also the rarity of the Enh can make a difference, Uncommon are generally not as good of a bonus as Rare, so look at what they are (uncommon are yellow, rare are orange.) Your example, Crushing impact is an uncommon.

[TheMultiVitamin]

23 minutes ago, Hedgefund said:

 

A "Triple Set IO" means something boosts 3 attributes, like Accuracy/Damage/Recharge.  This, for example:

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Ragnarok:_Damage/Recharge/Accuracy_(Superior)

 

A "Dual Set IO" means one that boosts 2 attributes, like Damage/Recharge.  This, for example:

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Ragnarok:_Damage/Recharge_(Superior)

 

So when the above table says "Superior Triple Set IO" and shows 79.5, that's a result of 26.5 (accuracy) + 26.5 (damage) + 26.5 (recharge).  The same follows for the double.

 

19 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

How many aspects are boosted. A dual Level 50 set totals at 53%. That means each aspect, ie Damage and Recharge, are boosted by 26.5%. For a triple set Level 50, that means 63.60% boosts Acc, Damage, Recharge by 21.2% each. If you slot both of them, you are now getting 21.2% Acc and 47.7% Damage and Recharge. Compare that to a Level IO single where those two slots give you 42.4% in Damage and Recharge and no two set bonus.

Oh I see, so I imagine you'd want to mix and match sets on a singular power too to get the most benefit like slotting 2 different enhancements from 2 different sets in a single power that are both Damage/Accuracy for example?

 

 

50 minutes ago, tidge said:

Many good points were in the responses, but the walls of text make it hard for me to quote out what I think are the key points:

 

1) Enhancement sets (with multiple attributes per enhancement) help to reach and/or avoid the point at which Enhancement Diversification would make using non-set pieces a losing game... at least in terms of slot investment. Fewer slots to get similar goals means that there are more slots to go around.

 

2) Set bonuses *do* add up. Mileage varies on which bonuses to pursue.

 

For example: I typically find that for non-Tanker/Brute (i.e. low HP) characters, chasing Regeneration doesn't make much sense. In contrast: +MaxHP almost always makes sense. Most characters can benefit from more Recovery, Global Endurance Discounts, and MaxEnd.

 

Getting global Accuracy bonuses means that when facing those +4 enemies that also happen to debuff you, you aren't near the floor of ToHit chances.

 

 

 

Hmm, so it helps avoid the drop off a bit better when you have too many of a single effect modifier like Damage or Defense, while freeing up slots and giving more overall benefits just spread out across multiple stats (when stacked properly) instead of singular large benefits like normal IO's do? So depending on what you're trying to do you'd even potentially want a mix of both IO sets and regular non-set IO's in the same power? And the only reasoning you'd want to full slot an entire IO set in a single power is if you want the set bonuses from higher set numbers on it, since the modifiers would be drastically dropping off (like how many Damage IO Sets have all the IO's in the set typically give more damage, so slotting all of the IO's from the set means not nearly as much damage as it implies due to ED, but you get the benefit of the other stat increases from the other IO's in the Set and the Set Bonuses too?)

 

6 minutes ago, Nerio72 said:

Also the rarity of the Enh can make a difference, Uncommon are generally not as good of a bonus as Rare, so look at what they are (uncommon are yellow, rare are orange.) Your example, Crushing impact is an uncommon.

Gotcha, almost forgot that rarities exist, especially given Purples.

[tidge]

38 minutes ago, TheMultiVitamin said:

Hmm, so it helps avoid the drop off a bit better when you have too many of a single effect modifier like Damage or Defense, while freeing up slots and giving more overall benefits just spread out across multiple stats (when stacked properly) instead of singular large benefits like normal IO's do? So depending on what you're trying to do you'd even potentially want a mix of both IO sets and regular non-set IO's in the same power? And the only reasoning you'd want to full slot an entire IO set in a single power is if you want the set bonuses from higher set numbers on it, since the modifiers would be drastically dropping off (like how many Damage IO Sets have all the IO's in the set typically give more damage, so slotting all of the IO's from the set means not nearly as much damage as it implies due to ED, but you get the benefit of the other stat increases from the other IO's in the Set and the Set Bonuses too?)

 

Only rarely do I mix IOs and pieces from Enhancement sets. There are occasions, but when I do, it is usually because there is only one attribute I want boosted and there is no set that offers more than one piece that only boosts the same attribute. For example, if I want to only boost the defense of something like a Force Field Generator, I may start with the Global recharge piece from LotG, but after that the set only has one Defense (only) piece. I may as well use only a IO Defense piece.

 

For attacks, generally a mix of Accuracy, Damage and Endurance is important. MMV depending on the inherent Recharge time of a power. Sets let you get those, plus bonuses.

 

Another thing: sometimes the only way to increase the attribute of a power is with a set. Mind Link/Link Minds will not take recharge reduction IOs, but you can slot the Recharge piece from the ToHit set to improve recharge times. (Hami-O/Dsyncs that include a recharge reduction can be slotted, but they don't improve the recharge times, because they act like IOs)

[Psyonico]

45 minutes ago, TheMultiVitamin said:

I imagine you'd want to mix and match sets on a singular power too to get the most benefit like slotting 2 different enhancements from 2 different sets

 

That kind of depends on a couple things.  If you're chasing 5 or 6 slot set bonuses, the you want to stay in set. 

 

Sets that have different level caps are also a consideration. Basilisks Gaze, for example, caps at level 30, so the raw stats can't get as high as something like  Lockdown, which caps at 50.

 

Most sets that cap at 50 do a good job getting you at or near ED caps for the most important aspect of that set (so, damage, hold, etc) and do a decent job getting you above the 33ish percent an even level SO provides for several other aspects.

[biostem]

IOs, unlike SOs or DOs, have their bonus based upon their "absolute level", instead of their relative level - the notion of -3 to +3 doesn't really apply to IOs, (other than determining which you can slot).  I have created an alternate build for at least 1 level 50 character that only used 53 SOs, and while they're functional, the lack of set bonuses does lower their level of performance vs other builds on the same character that *do* make full use of IOs...

Edited November 8 by biostem

[Without_Pause]

1 hour ago, TheMultiVitamin said:

Oh I see, so I imagine you'd want to mix and match sets on a singular power too to get the most benefit like slotting 2 different enhancements from 2 different sets in a single power that are both Damage/Accuracy for example?

I would do this type of slotting only really with uncommons when leveling. I would do this since slots are limited, I don't care as much about their set bonuses, they are less likely to be impacted by ED in terms of values, and if they are low level enough sets, they might only have 3 pieces to them. I vastly use attuned versions of IOs so uncommon IOs which scale up to Level 40 are great ones to pop in early and just leave them for whenever you want to do an upgrade. Note, the more impactful set bonuses come as you slot more of the same set. Note, Def bonuses can be highly valued depending on what a person is going for.

 

I self PLed two characters to Level 50 with Level 25 common IOs. Once I switched to even a budget build and ran it, it was "Oh, so that's what this is like." I can't recall if I flipped from +0 or +1, but I know I was suddenly doing +3 after the switch.

[Riverdusk]

4 hours ago, TheMultiVitamin said:

I can understand that, but like using the same example, Crushing Impact Damage/Endurance gives 26.5% for both in one IO at level 50, but a single level 50 Damage IO gives 42.4% Damage and a single level 50 Endurance Reduction IO gives 42.4%. So why slot Crushing impact, even if it's 1 less slot and giving Set Bonuses, for nearly half the benefit being gone? Unless you mean that like, slotting the whole Crushing Impact set would result in much more damage then slotting 3 Level 50 Damage IO's (since the rule of 3 applies) overall?

 

Because you could also slot a Dam/End from two different sets (say crushing impact and mako's bite) and then you'd end up with +53% damage and +53% endurance reduction for two slots compared to just 42.4 in each for the same two slots of "normal" IO's.  Multi aspect IO's are almost always a better deal for the same amount of slots.

 

That's called "Frankenslotting" (mixing sets).  It can be useful if you don't care as much about set bonuses and are just trying to maximize certain aspects in the fewest possible slots used.  But the set bonuses can be very nice and often are worth it.

[TheMultiVitamin]

I see, thanks y'all for answering my questions! I think I understand it much better now, though my brain is still railing against the math I've been using Mids Reborn to try and test out what you've been saying and they absolutely do add up, even more so if you're attempting to focus on specific parts. I imagine as I build my characters and slot them it'll be easier for my brain to click with it.

[Uncle Shags]

1 hour ago, TheMultiVitamin said:

Oh I see, so I imagine you'd want to mix and match sets on a singular power too to get the most benefit like slotting 2 different enhancements from 2 different sets in a single power that are both Damage/Accuracy for example?

Maybe, maybe not. Depending on lots of different factors. 

 

Let's be clear...this shit is complicated.  Those of us who've been tinkering with builds for years may forget how overwhelming and confusing it can be in the beginning. 

 

The idea you suggest above about mixing sets might work depending on your needs, but it gets complicated quickly.  One factor is the loss of set bonuses that happens with mix and match, both in quantity and quality. 

 

As the set bonuses don't start until you reach two of the same kind, you lose a bonus when you mix sets.  For instance, when you have 4 of one set you get 3 different bonuses.  But that same 4 total slots with 2 different sets gets you only 2 bonuses. 

 

On top of that, once you start looking at bonuses you will see that most of the more powerful ones come with the 4th, 5th, or 6th combo.  The early bonuses are usually weaker.  It can often pay off to get a complete, or nearly complete set. 

 

Like I said, complicated...  But the good news is that it's a pretty neat system that allows for an absolutely bonkers level of customization and min/maxing that some folks find the most fun part of the game. 

[TheMultiVitamin]

3 minutes ago, Uncle Shags said:

Maybe, maybe not. Depending on lots of different factors. 

 

Let's be clear...this shit is complicated.  Those of us who've been tinkering with builds for years may forget how overwhelming and confusing it can be in the beginning. 

 

The idea you suggest above about mixing sets might work depending on your needs, but it gets complicated quickly.  One factor is the loss of set bonuses that happens with mix and match, both in quantity and quality. 

 

As the set bonuses don't start until you reach two of the same kind, you lose a bonus when you mix sets.  For instance, when you have 4 of one set you get 3 different bonuses.  But that same 4 total slots with 2 different sets gets you only 2 bonuses. 

 

On top of that, once you start looking at bonuses you will see that most of the more powerful ones come with the 4th, 5th, or 6th combo.  The early bonuses are usually weaker.  It can often pay off to get a complete, or nearly complete set. 

 

Like I said, complicated...  But the good news is that it's a pretty neat system that allows for an absolutely bonkers level of customization and min/maxing that some folks find the most fun part of the game. 

Yea absolutely, I love making builds in games like Warframe and the like, but with this for the last few years I've been playing it the math and my own brains reasoning just went "Why bother with sets, just slot some SO +3's or some regular non-set IO's, no need to think hard on it cause the numbers say this way is better at a glance!" So I figured I'd just, ask people more experienced with builds in this game then me.