Kinetic Melee Buff Idea

[BrandX]

First the original thoughts that I still believe need to be done for the set...

 

Focused Burst ... Needs to be taken to Total Focus level of damage.  It's a limited range blast on a melee AT.  It's likely to be used in melee more than just as a strictly range attack.  So up the damage!  Maybe give it a hold aspect as well!  Make this an attack worth taking for everyone!

 

Repulsing Torrent ... I think if it did more damage it might get taken more often, as more damage may make up for those who feel it needs a KB to KD IO in it.  However, this is the least worry imo.  Still useable as a defense power for those mobs that can actually be knocked around.

 

HOWEVER this post is really about a thought I had for Power Siphon.

 

Give it a PBAOE damage effect!  This is a 2.112 second animation.  That's 2.112 seconds of no damage!  Build Ups are usually 1.32 seconds.  Not to mention it always felt a little like a Blinding Feint and Follow Up style ability.  So, a little damage in there as you cast it, to keep the dps going.

 

Not saying make it Burst level of damage, but it's something to help the Scrappers/Tankers/Brutes with Kinetic Melee.

[biostem]

TBH, I'd take a different approach;  Divorce the "siphon strength" function from "Power Siphon", and instead give each power its own chance to apply a "Power Siphon" effect, and when you hit an enemy with this debuff on them, you gain a buff to your own damage and recharge...

[BrandX]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

TBH, I'd take a different approach;  Divorce the "siphon strength" function from "Power Siphon", and instead give each power its own chance to apply a "Power Siphon" effect, and when you hit an enemy with this debuff on them, you gain a buff to your own damage and recharge...

 

I'm trying to recall if it did any draining effect or if it was just flavor text for the power.  If it did imbue your attacks with some sort of debuff, I don't recall it.

 

However, it giving your attacks a Proc of -Regen or -HP or -Resist to feel like a Siphon ability could be a way to go too, besides just a +DMG and +ToHit Power.

[Rudra]

27 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

I'm trying to recall if it did any draining effect or if it was just flavor text for the power.  If it did imbue your attacks with some sort of debuff, I don't recall it.

 

However, it giving your attacks a Proc of -Regen or -HP or -Resist to feel like a Siphon ability could be a way to go too, besides just a +DMG and +ToHit Power.

Siphon Power does only two things. It boosts your ToHit by +7.5% for 20 seconds, and it applies a siphon ability (SiphonMode) to your other Kinetic Melee attacks for 20 seconds. I can't find SiphonMode in City of Data except as a mode set to your character for 20 seconds from Siphon Power, but it looks like it both reduces the struck enemy target's damage and boosts your damage.

[biostem]

35 minutes ago, Rudra said:

it looks like it both reduces the struck enemy target's damage and boosts your damage.

I think, much like savage melee's special ability, that it should be a more reliable mechanism, built into every power, instead of relying on its version of build up...

[BrandX]

58 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Siphon Power does only two things. It boosts your ToHit by +7.5% for 20 seconds, and it applies a siphon ability (SiphonMode) to your other Kinetic Melee attacks for 20 seconds. I can't find SiphonMode in City of Data except as a mode set to your character for 20 seconds from Siphon Power, but it looks like it both reduces the struck enemy target's damage and boosts your damage.

 

If the idea is that you don't want it tied to Power Siphon because Stalkers don't get Power Siphon, they could still do something a bit similar.  It'd last longer on non Stalkers, due to Power Siphon, but...

 

Click Power Siphon/Build Up.  For every stack of Power Siphon the Kinetic Melee attacks do a level of -Regen/-HP.  Stalker version would give one buff of it, but thew others can build up to 5 stacks to lay down the debuff.

 

 

[Rudra]

26 minutes ago, biostem said:

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

it looks like it both reduces the struck enemy target's damage and boosts your damage.

I think, much like savage melee's special ability, that it should be a more reliable mechanism, built into every power, instead of relying on its version of build up...

I'm not arguing for or against. All I am doing is providing the data to @BrandX in response to the comment I quoted.

[BrandX]

5 hours ago, Rudra said:

I'm not arguing for or against. All I am doing is providing the data to @BrandX in response to the comment I quoted.

 

And yes, I recall that, but it's -DMG seems so weak to not be noticeable.

[Snarky]

Technically speaking, if Kinetic Melee could suck less that would be great…

[BrandX]

The proc ideas aren't bad imo.  Still thought my idea for Power Siphon would work as it would leave the player open to still continuing to do damage as they activate it.  But yes, I'm just trying to get Kinetic Melee up a couple of notches in terms of "It sucks" to "It's not bad"

 

Not trying to get it to #1 status or anything.  Also, while at it, feel good idea to make all attacks worth while. 🙂

[Excraft]

6 hours ago, Snarky said:

Technically speaking, if Kinetic Melee could suck less that would be great…

 

I don't think it's the strongest set there is, but I don't know that I'd say it sucks.  At least not all the time.  It's fun to play solo.  On teams, it's absolutely terrible due to the lengthy animation times. 

[BrandX]

11 minutes ago, Excraft said:

 

I don't think it's the strongest set there is, but I don't know that I'd say it sucks.  At least not all the time.  It's fun to play solo.  On teams, it's absolutely terrible due to the lengthy animation times. 

 

I agree the set is technically fine and playable.  Had more than one Kinetic Melee and felt just fine.  Doesn't mean it couldn't use a few tweeks.

 

That said, last place sets will always be considered weak even if weak isn't all that weak.  Using pylon times as an example, you have a difference of less than 43 seconds from top set to KM.

[PoptartsNinja]

KM's biggest problem is that Concentrated Strike is worse DPS than nearly any combination of Quick Strike, Body Blow, or Smashing Blow you can fire off in the same amount of time.

 

You can pop Smashing Blow, Quick Strike, and then get 80% of the way through Body Blow before Concentrated Strike finishes animating.

 

With scrapper damage values, that's 101.9 + 57.81 + (79.83 * 0.8) = 223.574 combined damage vs. Concentrated Strike's 222.7. A small difference, except by splitting the damage into 3 attacks, the Smashing Blow -> Quick Strike -> Body Blow chain is less punished by misses. And since it's pretty trivial to have enough recharge to Smashing Blow -> Quick Strike -> Body Blow -> Quick Strike -> Repeat there's just no reason to ever use the back half of the set (with the exception of maybe Focused Burst for AoE).

 

And if you've got enough recharge to drop Quick Strike from the rotation and just Smashing Blow -> Body Blow -> Smashing Blow -> Body Blow on repeat forever, Concentrated Strike loses outright (101.9 + 79.83 + (101.9 * 0.5) = 232.68)

 

 

Concentrated Strike really needs its animation cut to 2.53 like Total Focus/Thunderstrike, if that happened KM would probably be in pretty decent shape.

 

 

... Although it'd also be funny to add a tiny duration Mag 4-6 single target fear that starts the instant CS's animation starts and has like a 3-4 second duration, so you lock down the target for as long as you're animating.

 

 

Edit: That said, KM is probably secretly really good on Stalkers since they trade Power Syphon for Build Up and Repulsing Torrent for Assassin's Strike. It wouldn't be the first time a mediocre powerset is secretly really good on Stalkers (Dual Blades and Staff Fighting say 'hello').

Edited November 22 by PoptartsNinja

[BrandX]

On 11/22/2024 at 8:52 AM, PoptartsNinja said:

KM's biggest problem is that Concentrated Strike is worse DPS than nearly any combination of Quick Strike, Body Blow, or Smashing Blow you can fire off in the same amount of time.

 

You can pop Smashing Blow, Quick Strike, and then get 80% of the way through Body Blow before Concentrated Strike finishes animating.

 

With scrapper damage values, that's 101.9 + 57.81 + (79.83 * 0.8) = 223.574 combined damage vs. Concentrated Strike's 222.7. A small difference, except by splitting the damage into 3 attacks, the Smashing Blow -> Quick Strike -> Body Blow chain is less punished by misses. And since it's pretty trivial to have enough recharge to Smashing Blow -> Quick Strike -> Body Blow -> Quick Strike -> Repeat there's just no reason to ever use the back half of the set (with the exception of maybe Focused Burst for AoE).

 

And if you've got enough recharge to drop Quick Strike from the rotation and just Smashing Blow -> Body Blow -> Smashing Blow -> Body Blow on repeat forever, Concentrated Strike loses outright (101.9 + 79.83 + (101.9 * 0.5) = 232.68)

 

 

Concentrated Strike really needs its animation cut to 2.53 like Total Focus/Thunderstrike, if that happened KM would probably be in pretty decent shape.

 

 

... Although it'd also be funny to add a tiny duration Mag 4-6 single target fear that starts the instant CS's animation starts and has like a 3-4 second duration, so you lock down the target for as long as you're animating.

 

 

Edit: That said, KM is probably secretly really good on Stalkers since they trade Power Syphon for Build Up and Repulsing Torrent for Assassin's Strike. It wouldn't be the first time a mediocre powerset is secretly really good on Stalkers (Dual Blades and Staff Fighting say 'hello').

 

I had forgotten about CS.  However, on my Scrapper, if I recall my testing, did better DPS with CS use than without, but I also don't recall it being a big difference (I'd have to go back to a post on it to double check).  At the same time, I do know, I didn't use CS except on tough targets, because it just wasn't needed on the lower ranked enemies.

 

I think a lowering of it's animation by just a bit would work.

[Techhead]

I've been playing a bit of a Dark/Kinetic Tanker recently and leveling it up (currently at 42), I honestly think the set is pretty fun, *including* power siphon b/c it gives such a sustained buff. The animation times are long but I don't know if animation tweaks are on the table or not, if not it might be more worth upping the juice of the slower powers. Also the animations are really really cool

Personal feel good rating for all the powers on tanker:
- Body Blow: Solid baseline strike
- Quick Strike: Feels amazingly snappy, esp with the 0.5s effect time

- Smashing Blow: Solid heavy strike

- Taunt: It's Taunt
- Repulsing Torrent: It's actually very fun, it has such a huge area with tanker inherent. W/o KBTKD it's a "shove 80% of a pack into the wall" power, useful but niche, with that enhancement you can use it way more often without feeling guilty

- Power Siphon: The sustained damage boost instead of a quick 10s one is a neat niche, yes it's a long animation but you can use it while advancing towards a pack or waiting for pulled mobs to approach, so it's workable. The damage debuff per attack (varies, but Body Blow is -7% per 5s) is a neat perk but not major

- Burst: A little slow, otherwise a solid PBAOE melee strike

- Focused Burst: Underwhelming damage, coinflip knockdown, and middling range for a single-target button

- Concentrated Strike: Cool when it lands, decent but not exceptional damage for the animation time, if in a team I've wasted that time because he's usually dead already

 

Recommendations? FBurst and CStrike could hit a little harder, maybe as a capstone the latter could have guaranteed mez like MA's Eagle Claw does. I wouldn't even object if it went to a higher cooldown in exchange. Power Siphon could maybe get a numbers buff too but I actually dunno if it really needs it

Edited November 23 by Techhead
Forgot the debuff

[PoptartsNinja]

On 11/23/2024 at 10:57 AM, BrandX said:

 

on my Scrapper, if I recall my testing, did better DPS with CS use than without

 

This is true on a Scrapper because of crits, but only on a Scrapper. Tanks don't lose much by using CS in their rotation, but it's outright bad for Brute fury (when you're down to that last target) and Stalker AS is just superior in every way.

 

I'd argue that the top half of Kinetic Melee is genuinely good, it just needs a little something in the bottom half. An improvement to CS's animation times is what I see asked for most commonly, but I do think a boost to KM's AoEs might be warranted. Since the set is generally lacking in AoE power, maybe firing off Focused Burst before Burst could turn Burst into a small AoE; or firing off Focused Burst before Repulsing Torrent could change it from a 45* 40ft cone to a 120* 20ft cone so it's more likely to strike more than 2-3 mobs.

 

KM wouldn't need much to bring it up. It just needs a little extra polish in the top half.

[BrandX]

19 hours ago, Techhead said:

I've been playing a bit of a Dark/Kinetic Tanker recently and leveling it up (currently at 42), I honestly think the set is pretty fun, *including* power siphon b/c it gives such a sustained buff. The animation times are long but I don't know if animation tweaks are on the table or not, if not it might be more worth upping the juice of the slower powers. Also the animations are really really cool

Personal feel good rating for all the powers on tanker:
- Body Blow: Solid baseline strike
- Quick Strike: Feels amazingly snappy, esp with the 0.5s effect time

- Smashing Blow: Solid heavy strike

- Taunt: It's Taunt
- Repulsing Torrent: It's actually very fun, it has such a huge area with tanker inherent. W/o KBTKD it's a "shove 80% of a pack into the wall" power, useful but niche, with that enhancement you can use it way more often without feeling guilty

- Power Siphon: The sustained damage boost instead of a quick 10s one is a neat niche, yes it's a long animation but you can use it while advancing towards a pack or waiting for pulled mobs to approach, so it's workable. The damage debuff per attack (varies, but Body Blow is -7% per 5s) is a neat perk but not major

- Burst: A little slow, otherwise a solid PBAOE melee strike

- Focused Burst: Underwhelming damage, coinflip knockdown, and middling range for a single-target button

- Concentrated Strike: Cool when it lands, decent but not exceptional damage for the animation time, if in a team I've wasted that time because he's usually dead already

 

Recommendations? FBurst and CStrike could hit a little harder, maybe as a capstone the latter could have guaranteed mez like MA's Eagle Claw does. I wouldn't even object if it went to a higher cooldown in exchange. Power Siphon could maybe get a numbers buff too but I actually dunno if it really needs it

 

For sure I think Focused Burst should be made to do Total Focus level damage.  I get that FB has range but for a melee class I don't feel that means to much.

 

My suggestion for Power Siphon being given a bit of PBAOE damage potential, is just because I don't think it should require a target (it doesn't now) and I can't imagine it would hit just one target otherwise.  However, using it and it adds proc kicker could be good, as suggested, to help all the ATs, I believe was the idea there.

 

CS getting a tiny animation shortening would help it as long as they don't touch anything else.

[Techhead]

I think minor PBAOE might actually make Power Siphon worse if it keeps you from moving while casting it, and IDK if it'd be kosher to do it otherwise, there's no click attack power I can think of that doesn't root you

[BrandX]

8 hours ago, Techhead said:

I think minor PBAOE might actually make Power Siphon worse if it keeps you from moving while casting it, and IDK if it'd be kosher to do it otherwise, there's no click attack power I can think of that doesn't root you

 

I figured it might put it in line with the likes of Follow Up or Blinding Feint.  Though, this was all just more thoughts on what to do.

[Monos King]

On 11/20/2024 at 6:40 PM, biostem said:

TBH, I'd take a different approach;  Divorce the "siphon strength" function from "Power Siphon", and instead give each power its own chance to apply a "Power Siphon" effect, and when you hit an enemy with this debuff on them, you gain a buff to your own damage and recharge...

That sounds similar to a little something something...

 

[WindDemon21]

What it mostly needs is having one of the wind ups removed from burst and especially concentrated strike to lower their cast times. Then power siphon, it should have that to hit apply to each stack, i think this was mistakenly done with the buff only lasting for 15s when cast, where i'm pretty sure it had to have been meant to be applied to each stack, or where PS should last 30seconds, and bump it to 10% for the full duration. Also CS needs fixed so that the crit boosts from the ATOs effect it on scrappers/stalkers, not just be stuck at 20% crit, and it should get some bonus crit damage as well.

[BrandX]

On 11/30/2024 at 1:18 PM, WindDemon21 said:

What it mostly needs is having one of the wind ups removed from burst and especially concentrated strike to lower their cast times. Then power siphon, it should have that to hit apply to each stack, i think this was mistakenly done with the buff only lasting for 15s when cast, where i'm pretty sure it had to have been meant to be applied to each stack, or where PS should last 30seconds, and bump it to 10% for the full duration. Also CS needs fixed so that the crit boosts from the ATOs effect it on scrappers/stalkers, not just be stuck at 20% crit, and it should get some bonus crit damage as well.

 

Agreed on CS crit issue.  Needs fixed too.  No reason these t9's shouldn't crit.

Edited December 5 by BrandX

[Tathya]

Power Siphon mostly annoys me because the +damage stacks are on independent timers, so missing an attack can make the entire power siphon window much weaker; plus it makes your longer-cast powers less useful in your Power Siphon window.  I imagine the devs wanted it to be "rapid fire your lower level abilities to build up your +damage, and then hit CS with five stacks."  It tends not to work out that way, I find.  So, here's a slightly alternate idea:

 

Make Concentrated Strike a melee range cone.  35 degree arc, 5 target max.  Reduce the damage to be in line with a tier 9 cone.  That would make the big wind-up feel more warranted, and emphasize chaining the earlier attacks for ST.

 

Make Power Siphon's stacks more meaningful.  Make them not fall off while PS is running, and give them two build-spend options, on Focused Burst for ST or Concentrated Strike for melee.  Using CS with five stacks of Siphon insta-recharges it, for all ATs, rather than Scrappers getting cheated out of their crits on it.  Using FB with five stacks drags the target back into melee range and immobilizes them briefly.  Either way, Power Siphon immediately ends if you use one of those.  Makes PS more reliable, makes CS more worth the big wind-up, gives a new use for FB.

 

Just idle thoughts at the end of the work-day.

[Techhead]

The different power siphon stacks are also not equal, they have differing strengths AND durations. Which does help out the slower abilities but it's so complex if trying to optimize an attack chain.

[BrandX]

16 hours ago, Tathya said:

Power Siphon mostly annoys me because the +damage stacks are on independent timers, so missing an attack can make the entire power siphon window much weaker; plus it makes your longer-cast powers less useful in your Power Siphon window.  I imagine the devs wanted it to be "rapid fire your lower level abilities to build up your +damage, and then hit CS with five stacks."  It tends not to work out that way, I find.  So, here's a slightly alternate idea:

 

Make Concentrated Strike a melee range cone.  35 degree arc, 5 target max.  Reduce the damage to be in line with a tier 9 cone.  That would make the big wind-up feel more warranted, and emphasize chaining the earlier attacks for ST.

 

Make Power Siphon's stacks more meaningful.  Make them not fall off while PS is running, and give them two build-spend options, on Focused Burst for ST or Concentrated Strike for melee.  Using CS with five stacks of Siphon insta-recharges it, for all ATs, rather than Scrappers getting cheated out of their crits on it.  Using FB with five stacks drags the target back into melee range and immobilizes them briefly.  Either way, Power Siphon immediately ends if you use one of those.  Makes PS more reliable, makes CS more worth the big wind-up, gives a new use for FB.

 

Just idle thoughts at the end of the work-day.

 

I did some testing with Kinetic Melee and I found the chain with CS was higher DPS, however, without CS, it wasn't that much lower.