Ice Tanks...tell me more... :)

[BurtHutt]

So, I continue to try powers that I never really tried before (here or Live). Can anyone chime in and discuss the merits of having an ice shield tank? I guess it's mostly a DEF set with some RES. What are the pros and cons to this set? Anything I should skip and, conversely, what's essential? Any and all input is much appreciated. Lastly, I'd really love some builds! Maybe an Ice/SS tank? Both are sets I haven't take too far.

[TygerDarkstorm]

I don't have like detailed knowledge since I'm not a number cruncher, but what I do know of Ice Armor is that you will have ALL THE AGGRO and ain't no one taking it from you. I have a little Ice/Claws tank who was doing a TF or missions with higher level tankers/brutes and kept ripping their aggro away. Like many of the older armor sets, it's dated, has holes, and other armor sets do what Ice does better. I still think it's fun though and really need to spend more time with mine.

[SeraphimKensai]

I tend to avoid SS on a defense based toon due to rage crash chipping away at your defense and possibly causing you to get overwhelmed.

 

Ice armor you pick honestly everything.nyou can get by without hibernate, but it's nice to have.

[Zect]

 

3 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

I tend to avoid SS on a defense based toon due to rage crash chipping away at your defense and possibly causing you to get overwhelmed.

 

Tanks get around this, because tankers are overpowered: you just build for 65% def to softcap despite the crash and continue raging away. I call it cold fury.

 

Out of the box, an ice tank is softcapped with just the toggles, both +3 uniques, weave, and 1 more def pool power (CJ/hover/maneuvers/stealth). So you just add some set bonuses and energy absorption on top of that (which gives around +10% def to all) and not even rage can un-softcap you.

 

[BurtHutt]

53 minutes ago, Zect said:

 

 

Tanks get around this, because tankers are overpowered: you just build for 65% def to softcap despite the crash and continue raging away. I call it cold fury.

 

Out of the box, an ice tank is softcapped with just the toggles, both +3 uniques, weave, and 1 more def pool power (CJ/hover/maneuvers/stealth). So you just add some set bonuses and energy absorption on top of that (which gives around +10% def to all) and not even rage can un-softcap you.

 

Fascinating. Do you have a build by chance?

[SeraphimKensai]

5 hours ago, Zect said:

 Tanks get around this, because tankers are overpowered: you just build for 65% def to softcap despite the crash and continue raging away. I call it cold fury.

 

Out of the box, an ice tank is softcapped with just the toggles, both +3 uniques, weave, and 1 more def pool power (CJ/hover/maneuvers/stealth). So you just add some set bonuses and energy absorption on top of that (which gives around +10% def to all) and not even rage can un-softcap you.

 

You're absolutely right that you can build to compensate for it in most non incarnate content. It gets tricky when exterior defense debuffs comes into play, and playing incarnate content and higher (but at that point most people are coordinating barrier).

[ZemX]

14 hours ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

I don't have like detailed knowledge since I'm not a number cruncher, but what I do know of Ice Armor is that you will have ALL THE AGGRO and ain't no one taking it from you.

 

I keep hearing this but have never heard an explanation.  Yeah, it has both a debuff aura and a damage aura but Dark Armor has that AND a fear aura on top and nobody talks about it being an aggro monster (just an endurance monster).  Have always been curious if this thing about Ice Armor is real or just perception bias.  But threat and how it is calculated has always been something of a mystery so anything is possible.

[Psyonico]

11 minutes ago, ZemX said:

I keep hearing this but have never heard an explanation. 

For most of the game's history, different taunt auras had different threat magnitudes.  While this was the case, Ice Armor had the highest threat magnitude.  I remember specifically that WP had the lowest.

 

I believe it was HC that normalized taunt auras.

[ZemX]

12 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

For most of the game's history, different taunt auras had different threat magnitudes.  While this was the case, Ice Armor had the highest threat magnitude.  I remember specifically that WP had the lowest.

 

That's interesting because what we know (or think we know) about threat calculation comes FROM back then in a post by Castle on the official forums.  The equation given did not mention threat magnitude at all but instead threat duration as being the factor on which threat was multiplied.  The ranged Taunt power, thus, has a stronger taunt effect because it has a much longer base duration (41 seconds) than Gauntlet's "punch-voke" (15 seconds).

 

Unless taunt mag somehow factors into the initial amount of threat that is applied by just the power itself.  It's unclear how powers that don't deal damage (like Taunt itself) factor into threat.  We know they do because just tossing ranged Taunt out there almost always peels a target off whoever they were attacking as long as that person wasn't themselves taunting or punch-voking.

 

The threat-value of debuffs seems the most likely explanation if Ice seems to do better at taunting.  Especially if each separate debuff effect adds its own threat multplier.  Chilling Embrace is 5 separate debuff effects in one power (jump height, recharge time, move speed, damage, and max run speed).

 

It's all a bit academic, I suppose.  The actual amount of threat any Tanker is doing only really matters when vying for aggro FROM other taunt-capable teammates.  Nice if you have some baby tankers with you on a radio mission or something but otherwise not often relevant.  Maybe most useful to know when YOU are the baby tanker leveling up. 🤪

[TygerDarkstorm]

Yeah, I know nothing behind the math in how the game calculates threat, but Ice Armor is a threat magnet. Like I said, my baby Ice Tanker was pulling threat even without using taunt from tankers much higher in level than her. Perhaps something between the combo of Icicles and Chilling Embrace helps keep the baddies glued?

[Psyonico]

2 hours ago, ZemX said:

The equation given did not mention threat magnitude at all but instead threat duration

 

I may be wrong about magnitude rather than duration, but I do know that taunt auras were normalized at some point.

 

I don't think its just a matter of 2 taunt auras, because Bio also has 2 and yet people don't usually say that Bio is a threat machine.

 

An interesting thing I just noticed looking at COD... Some taunt auras have a Taunt (mag 3) and some just have a Gauntlet redirect. Both Chilling Embrace and Icicles only have the Gauntlet Redirect, not the baked in Taunt (mag 3).

 

 

[ZemX]

1 hour ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

Like I said, my baby Ice Tanker was pulling threat even without using taunt from tankers much higher in level than her. Perhaps something between the combo of Icicles and Chilling Embrace helps keep the baddies glued?

 

It probably IS just Chilling Embrace.  It also has a 0.5 second refresh period so it is pulsing out five debuffs twice per second and refreshing a 15 second taunt effect at the same time.  By comparison, my Rad Tanker's taunt aura is refreshing half as fast and only doing two debuffs.  Threat is an accumulated value over time, not an override.   The more you keep hitting or debuffing something you have already taunted, the faster your threat counter is going up with that enemy.  So as far as that goes, yeah, what Icicles is adding is that it is reliably hitting everything around you once every two seconds which is more often than anybody else without a damage aura is probably hitting that many enemies.

[Sanguinesun]

19 hours ago, BurtHutt said:

So, I continue to try powers that I never really tried before (here or Live). Can anyone chime in and discuss the merits of having an ice shield tank? I guess it's mostly a DEF set with some RES. What are the pros and cons to this set? Anything I should skip and, conversely, what's essential? Any and all input is much appreciated. Lastly, I'd really love some builds! Maybe an Ice/SS tank? Both are sets I haven't take too far.

 

Its one of the more challenging sets due to the way it hibridizes its resistances.  You can build it (post incarnates) to maintain most all of the time to have resistances in the 60% or higher range but at the sacrifice of other aspects to the build depending on the secondary and pools you choose.  Leveling, enduance is also going to be an issue until incarnated(and depending on your alpha choice).

 

Casual play= anything is fine if you are teaming but may struggle with soloing on some set builds.

Challenging content= There are better set options.

[Psyonico]

7 minutes ago, Sanguinesun said:

enduance is also going to be an issue until incarnated

 

I've played a handful of ice tanks, their endurance issues disappear once you have a couple of recharges in Energy Absorption.

[Spaghetti Betty]

Ice Armor is great! It's been one of my favorites since Live and has only gotten better with the addition of ATOs, other pools, and a greater understanding of IOs, There aren't many Tank armors that can potentially have softcapped DEF, mostly capped resists, and capped HP. There are just so many toggles to run, and depending on how you're running it, you might be running it a bit close waiting on that next Energy Absorption, but it gets the job done!

 

It just kinda falls a bit short to massive -DEF and psi attacks! But just how prevalent are strong psi attacks, anyway?

[BurtHutt]

18 minutes ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

Ice Armor is great! It's been one of my favorites since Live and has only gotten better with the addition of ATOs, other pools, and a greater understanding of IOs, There aren't many Tank armors that can potentially have softcapped DEF, mostly capped resists, and capped HP. There are just so many toggles to run, and depending on how you're running it, you might be running it a bit close waiting on that next Energy Absorption, but it gets the job done!

 

It just kinda falls a bit short to massive -DEF and psi attacks! But just how prevalent are strong psi attacks, anyway?

Yeah, I was messing around with some builds and it does look challenging in a way...but I may still give it a go! Do you have a build by chance?

[Heatstroke]

I have played a few Ice Armor tanks. My original tank was an Ice/Stone back on live, but I made an Ice/Spines tank which plays much better IMO.

 

Ice has several things that work in its favor.

 

Chilling Embrace isnt just a good taunt aura (and its one of the best), but it also has a -recharge,  and -damage. You get attacked less and you take less damage.

 

Hoarfrost is both a massive HP boost and a Massive Heal. So you can either use it t buff your HP, or use it as a heal and with enough recharge you can also make it Perma.

 

Hibernate is a great OH CRAP power makes you invulnerable while you heal. but your taunt will stop working so you team is on its own for a moment.

 

Energy Absorption. Is not just an End recovery power. It is also a + Defense power. Very Useful when facing things with annoying -defense.

I went with Spines because adding in Quills with its -recharge and -spd was great synergy with Ice Armor.

I went with Cardiac for my Incarnate Alpha.. Zero end issues.. Barrier for the Defense and Resists...


Good Luck killing me..

 

 

 

 

[TTRPGWhiz]

I had an Ice/Kin/Soul Tanker that I liked a lot, but it was built for a pretty specific trick: stacking as much -Dam as possible.
(no I don't have a build  🙃)

[Heatstroke]

This is my current build for Shiv'R.  Hope it helps with some ideas.

 

https://api.midsreborn.com/legacy/download?uc=1839&c=756&a=1512&f=HEX&dc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

 

I hope this helps. I have forgotten how to place the actual build on the forums

 

Edited December 5 by Heatstroke
spelling errors corrected

[Heatstroke]

This might help also 

ShiverTankerBuild - Ice Armor - Spines.mbd

[StriderIV]

On 12/2/2024 at 12:06 PM, Spaghetti Betty said:

Ice Armor is great! It's been one of my favorites since Live and has only gotten better with the addition of ATOs, other pools, and a greater understanding of IOs, There aren't many Tank armors that can potentially have softcapped DEF, mostly capped resists, and capped HP. There are just so many toggles to run, and depending on how you're running it, you might be running it a bit close waiting on that next Energy Absorption, but it gets the job done!

 

It just kinda falls a bit short to massive -DEF and psi attacks! But just how prevalent are strong psi attacks, anyway?

I know you loved pairing Ice Armor with Energy Melee! Any other secondaries you feel pair well with Ice Armor?

[Yomo Kimyata]

On 12/2/2024 at 11:42 AM, ZemX said:

That's interesting because what we know (or think we know) about threat calculation comes FROM back then in a post by Castle on the official forums.  The equation given did not mention threat magnitude at all but instead threat duration as being the factor on which threat was multiplied. 

I don’t care a flying flughaven about taunt most of the time, but I would guess this is a combination of duration and magnitude.  Is it possible or probable that specific taunts from one player are able to stack to very high levels of mag?  A long duration of a mez power gives you a long time to stack mag.

[ZemX]

47 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I don’t care a flying flughaven about taunt most of the time, but I would guess this is a combination of duration and magnitude.  Is it possible or probable that specific taunts from one player are able to stack to very high levels of mag?  A long duration of a mez power gives you a long time to stack mag.

 

It seems counter-intuitive but as I said, Castle's formula does not include mag.  Only duration.  Taunt effects tend not to stack from the same caster but instead "replace existing effect".  Presumably a longer duration taunt isn't replaced by a shorter duration but who knows?  This is all a bit hidden from view in the actual game.  We just see the effects of it when we manage to taunt a mob off of someone.

 

But like you say, you don't really NEED to care about this unless you are trying to taunt something away from another person who is ALSO taunting.  And if some other tanker managed to taunt something away from me or prevent me from taunting something away from them.... that's just not a big deal either.  Sharing is caring.

[SeraphimKensai]

1 hour ago, StriderIV said:

I know you loved pairing Ice Armor with Energy Melee! Any other secondaries you feel pair well with Ice Armor?

I really like the synergy of Ice and Spines. Slows, extra damage aura some ranged attacks. Darkest Night from Soul Mastery for -THD and stacking -Dam with Chilling Embrace.

 

That said most tankers secondaries fit well with Ice Armor. I also have ice armor paired with Savage, Ice Melee and War Mace.

[StriderIV]

4 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

I really like the synergy of Ice and Spines. Slows, extra damage aura some ranged attacks. Darkest Night from Soul Mastery for -THD and stacking -Dam with Chilling Embrace.

 

That said most tankers secondaries fit well with Ice Armor. I also have ice armor paired with Savage, Ice Melee and War Mace.

Yeah there seems to be a lot of synergy there!