Add Hitstop to Titan Weapons

[megaericzero]

3 minutes ago, biostem said:

How can you add a pause to all the attack powers in a set, as a mere "option"?  Again, I do not see this being worth the development time necessary to implement.  There's nothing stopping you, as a player, from "dramatically pausing" after the attacks...

TBH I haven't been reading every post in this thread diligently. I'd assume the hitstop was baked into the alternate animation, since I assume the engine isn't even capable of detecting the collision on top of the fact that it can't blend animations.

[PoptartsNinja]

I put together a better sample in Shotcut.

 

Here's Titan Weapons without hitstop, as it currently exists:

 

 

And this is with something akin to the proposed hitstop (and a free snare drum sound to punch up the hits):

 

[Psyonico]

3 hours ago, PoptartsNinja said:

Hitstop is a dramatic pause...

 

 

which emphasizes the power of the strike

Yeah... Looking at the gifs you've put in this thread, to me it makes the game seem choppy and unpolished, so the "dramatic impact" is lost on me.

 

Should I hazard a guess, I'd say anyone who hasn't spent 20 years playing games that have hitstop would feel similar.

[golstat2003]

5 hours ago, Rudra said:

Trying to sit this out, but I do have to point out that adding hitstop would impact other players using the set. Players that may be happy with how their big weapons aren't forced to stop when hitting a target and now would see their massive weapons stopping when hitting targets where other weapon sets do not. (Disclaimer, I do not currently have any Titan Weapons characters. I have not made any since the Live game shut down. However, Titan Weapons picking up an imposed stop/pause in their attacks for impacting targets will prevent me from making a Titan Weapons character on HC. Given my preference for fast attacks though, that isn't a consideration for the proposal. How it affects others already using the set however, should be considered.)

 

Agreed as a Titan weapon user this change would annoy the hell out of me. Espeically if it did not take into account whether my titan weapon were being used against stomething like a living rock wall versus a very squishy hellion. I don't care what you call it, such a change while not taking that into account would look terrible to me animation wise.

 

Hard pass from me.

[Indystruck]

hitstop feels so good dude

[srmalloy]

On 12/2/2024 at 3:17 PM, PoptartsNinja said:

For those not up on fighting games or (more appropriately), Monster Hunter: Hitstop is basically a state where your attack animation pauses for a brief period at the moment of impact to make the attack feel more impactful.

 

So it's more dramatic and impactful to have the locomotive instantly stop for a moment when it hits the vehicle stopped on the tracks? No; that's not the way momentum works, no matter how much you've been conditioned by other games to see it that way. What makes the attack feel more impactful is, if there's no 'crush/bisect' visual, to have the target flung away by the impact, or if it's large enough, knocked down, with the weapon continuing its swing as if the target wasn't there. Knockback, though, would be a reduction in the effectiveness of Titan Weapons as a melee set, in that you'd have to keep chasing your target (or in the case of the PBAoE/cone attacks, gather them back up again).

 

[Seed22]

18 hours ago, PoptartsNinja said:

But that isn't what hitstop represents.

I played MonHun, though as a lance main(waiting on wilds. That lance iteration is just *chef’s kiss*) so my hitstop was baked into my guard counter and charge. It really did create a sense of impact even for a weapon not really known for its’ impactful strikes.

 

But what you’re experiencing here is a videogame language barrier. CoH players who main CoH and or never played MonHun can’t really visualize the logic behind hitstop, just as if you only played MonHun and no CoH you would be looking at TW in disgust(I look at it in disgust because it was over nerfed and sucks ass but that’s a whole ‘nother can o’ worms)

 

 

 

Of course some just don’t like it and that’s fine too. Even in MonHun some don’t like it. It is what it is. 
 

I’d personally need to see a proper animator do the hitstop on TW and have it adjusted for CoH. I do hate the current server lag melee effect of TW, but I’m not sure how titan will look with hitstop without a proper animator imo

Edited December 4 by Seed22

[TheMoneyMaker]

Hitstop sounds awful. The point of the titan weapons is that they are big, heavy weapons that build momentum as you swing them around. If it stopped when it hits, momentum gone. And I'm not buying into the idea that the hitstop as proposed would show more oomph to the impact. I think a better case could be made for having an option to cause your screen to shake slightly on a successful hit, like the kind of shake that occurs with the seimic movement aura.

[gameboy1234]

I'm kinda on the fence about this.  Titan Weapon animations might need some love, but I'm not sure that hit-stop is it.  I think my biggest complaint is that when I take a swing, my animation is so huge that I lunge right through the enemy, causing my arms and legs to clip into the enemy model, but not my actual sword which goes well beyond the enemy's position.  I'd probably start by figuring out how to fix that. 

 

Second the momentum mechanic causes it to remove momentum at weird intervals, I'd like to see this looked at.  Momentum isn't "built up" you just have it and then you don't, I think it's a simple timer only, and that feels bad.

 

Third the timing is off on the damage with one of the first two attacks (can't recall atm which).

 

Fourth, maybe some hit-stop, but maybe I should have a larger chance of just knocking people down, or away, or something like that, that might feel good as well.  (I dunno if some unresistible repel might work here, and that also might fix the clipping with the animations.)

 

[megaericzero]

Couple thoughts.

 

1) This first one is mostly directed to Poptarts: is hitstop more exclusive to Japanese media? The majority of examples in the video linked were games originating in Japan - Street Fighter, Monster Hunter, Guilty Gear - and games that follow that media style like Skullgirls. They're also mostly fighting games. I'm used to it, personally, which is to say that I hadn't initially noticed. For people who don't consume that kind of media, it can be quite off-putting. There's always a question of how much to accommodate media tropes outside of western comic books since that's what the game is rooted in, even in the case of alternate options.

 

2) I know Poptarts established the suggestion is for the feel and to disregard realism but there's also looking at it as the weapon not cleaving in a single blow and the user continuing the swing to eventually cut through. Sure, that makes it weaker but trades raw power for showing the person's tenacity. Here's a couple gif examples; I don't think them being punches diminishes the point that the hits connect, visibly stop, and the user continues to apply force which could easily apply to a melee weapon swing.

(There's also a good number of western videogame examples in Mortal Kombat's x-ray attacks but those are quite gory so I'll abstain from posting/linking and let those curious look them up.)

Edited December 4 by megaericzero

[Rudra]

4 minutes ago, gameboy1234 said:

Momentum isn't "built up" you just have it and then you don't, I think it's a simple timer only, and that feels bad.

Yes, it is on a timer. When you use a Titan Weapon attack and you don't have Momentum, you get Momentum for the next 5 seconds. I don't know if Momentum refreshes or if you can only get it when you have none though. (If it doesn't refresh during its duration for having used another attack, it really should in my opinion.)

[gameboy1234]

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Yes, it is on a timer. When you use a Titan Weapon attack and you don't have Momentum, you get Momentum for the next 5 seconds. I don't know if Momentum refreshes or if you can only get it when you have none though. (If it doesn't refresh during its duration for having used another attack, it really should in my opinion.)

 

It doesn't refresh.  That's the main thing I'm commenting about here.

 

[Luminara]

This isn't making me think "impact", it's making me think "Jesus, sharpen that thing, it's duller than a countertop."

[El D]

I think a lot of the prior examples of hitstop in this thread emphasize that it works fantastically for a cinematic experience - such as in movies or anime - and in fighting games and 3rd person action RPGs where the gameplay is intended to be handled with a controller, designed to utilize haptic feedback, and made with movement and combat mechanics where weight and reach matter more directly/at all. Which is where the problem comes in, seeing as CoX has next to none of those things (and those it does have aren't implemented the same way). Combat in CoX provides no haptic feedback via any sort of controller and doesn't shift in perspective akin to Fatalities or zoom-in/repeat shots. There's no change in damage or functionality from mistiming a swing or not building up enough power (specifically as it works in Monster Hunter or a fighting game) and no mechanic for variances in character/weapon weight. None of the cinematic or numeric impacts of hitstop exist in CoX - the gameplay just isn't designed for it.

 

What CoX's gameplay is meant to be is functional, engaging, and quick. Specifically so in the framework of an MMO, which means the 'weight and impact' of Titan Weapons is purely visual. It's an illusion via animations and power FX to sell the aesthetic of the set. You could play Titan Weapons the exact same if the weapon and the FX were entirely invisible (call it Titan Interpretive Dance). There's no numerical difference with or without the weapon because the weapon itself isn't a gameplay mechanic (nor is the character model, for that matter). Also CoX's emphasis on frenetic gameplay is precisely why Titan Weapons was lambasted for being painfully slow ever since it was introduced. The lumbering, powerful swings fit the look, but they still didn't feel as quick as other sets (and in various cases, outright weren't as quick, even after they got adjusted). All that combines to mean that slowing down the animations on a set that is already considered very slow - even if it's just in player perception of the animation change rather than actual animation time - is not going to be taken as an improvement when the aesthetic is all that changes.

 

To play devil's advocate, bundling this with mechanic improvements? That could work. Hitstop being included with some number tweaks to enhance Titan Weapons performance might get more broad interest and player support, but I still see it as a hard sell just from the way the game operates. Also at that point, knowing our community, various folks would probably just ask for the mechanical boosts without the animation change.

Edited December 5 by El D

[srmalloy]

21 hours ago, Luminara said:

This isn't making me think "impact", it's making me think "Jesus, sharpen that thing, it's duller than a countertop."

And the associated thought "If the object you're hitting is so obdurate that it will completely absorb the momentum you built up during your swing, but you're strong enough to just push your weapon through your target from a dead stop, then why the hell didn't you use that strength during your swing so your weapon wouldn't have been stopped?"

[Indystruck]

"this sword isn't realistic" said super human who's armor set involves causing a nuclear meltdown and simultaneously damaging enemies while healing allies

[megaericzero]

6 hours ago, srmalloy said:

And the associated thought "If the object you're hitting is so obdurate that it will completely absorb the momentum you built up during your swing, but you're strong enough to just push your weapon through your target from a dead stop, then why the hell didn't you use that strength during your swing so your weapon wouldn't have been stopped?"

It's a funny punchline but not absurd. If you managed to wedge something that big into an object (or person), you've definitely done some structural damage. It/they could very well be one more stiff breeze away from crumbling; pushing it the rest of the way through is feasible.

[Rudra]

34 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

It's a funny punchline but not absurd. If you managed to wedge something that big into an object (or person), you've definitely done some structural damage. It/they could very well be one more stiff breeze away from crumbling; pushing it the rest of the way through is feasible.

Not with the way hitstop works. With hitstop, once the object hits the target's hit box, it stops. So there isn't any visible structure damage to the target, and then the object is pushed through. Hitstop works great for dramatic effect which is why you see it in anime and movies (edit again: , but much more often in fighting games where the pause in combat isn't detrimental to the flow of the game). Just like slow motion effects added to the combat sequence to heighten the perception of what is happening. (Edit: In anime and movies, hitstop is more of a slow motion combat interrupt effect to let the viewer get a better view of what is happening anyway.) And just like with slow motion for visual purpose effects, does not translate to MMORPG games. (Edit again: Not unless the game starts out designed that way and has it apply to every weapon/attack used.)

 

Edited December 6 by Rudra
Edited again to add "for visual purpose".

[megaericzero]

30 minutes ago, Rudra said:

So there isn't any visible structure damage to the target, and then the object is pushed through.

Just for clarity: Is that an issue with the limited graphics or that it's beyond your suspension of disbelief? (Or something else?) The quoted part specifically.

[Rudra]

24 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

Just for clarity: Is that an issue with the limited graphics or that it's beyond your suspension of disbelief? (Or something else?) The quoted part specifically.

Neither. It is about the request for hitstop and how it works as presented by the author. That the attack must stop when it hits to show impact. (Edit: But just for the very first target hit in the attack. Every other target hit just has the weapon function how it already does, simply passing through them.)

 

Edited December 6 by Rudra

[srmalloy]

15 hours ago, Rudra said:

Edit: But just for the very first target hit in the attack. Every other target hit just has the weapon function how it already does, simply passing through them.

And right there is a particularly solid argument against hitstop -- if you activate Whirling Smash, but the hitstop only occurs only against the first target hit in the PBAoE, which target in the area gets the hitstop, why don't you get it against the other targets in the AoE, and just how badly do you screw up the animation if you do have hitstop against each target in the AoE and the game engine has to account for that pause against each target, when one activation might hit a single target and the next might hit ten? Having your swing show off how 'powerful' and 'impactful' it is would get utterly janky-looking if it hit the first target, stopped, re-accelerated to the second target, stopped again, then continued re-accelerating to subsequent targets, stopping for a moment at each target hit. I'm pretty sure the game engine wouldn't be able to do this without an unreasonable amount of special-case programming. In my opinion, hitstop doesn't add anything useful to the existing combat style/mechanics in CoH, and I have to oppose it both on stylistic and mechanical grounds.