Never Tanked (except with a Brute)

[Spaghetti Betty]

2 hours ago, WuTang said:

@Spaghetti Betty Do you remember the /Bio Brute build you helped me with some weeks back?

 

For a Tanker, do I take a similar approach, or is it more about survivability?

You can build in exactly the same way and the Tank will be more durable and only sacrifice a tiny bit of damage over the Brute!

[tidge]

9 hours ago, Sovera said:

Not to pull shade on Tidge because A)  they mean well, and B) they are correct. But in actual practice, especially for things of such dubious difficulty as Yin and Posi as the examples cited, can and are done without a Tanker or Brute in the team.

 

I often find that PUGs for Positron, Synapse go smoother without a non-exemplared Tanker or Brute. Of course, exemplared characters can pretty much carry anyone for a lot of this low level content.

 

Yin is a different sort of kettle of Freaks, because the one point I wanted to make about Clamor was that her Radiation Infection is going to end up on somebody, and that somebody shouldn't be adjacent to teammates. A Tanker's Taunt is the most reliable way to get it and not have to stand adjacent to here (and any melee friends). As a practical matter, whichever of my characters gets the toggle I move away from my teammates... even if I'm playing something like a Scrapper (unless the rest of the team is staying out of melee range of Clamor... but that is rarely the case in my experience). A Tanker/Brute that relies on punchvoke and/or auras for aggro is often staying toe-to-toe with Clamor, and any other melee types. The Radiation Infection debuff is probably bears more responsibility for player defeats  in the reactor room than anything else.

[Jacke]

21 hours ago, Nemu said:

3 pages of recommendations by scrubs for scrubs. This is what you really need

 

Real Tanks Don't Need No Toggles - Tanker (Super Reflexes - Martial Arts).mbd 41.82 kB · 8 downloads

 

Interesting build.  I'll have to compare my SR/MA Tanker build and think about adjusting mine.

 

I would suggest dropping Eagle's Claw for Crane Kick.  Better DPA, shorter Arcanatime, and on a Tanker I slot a KB>KD IO.  I think the +Damage effect isn't enough to make up for its shortcomings.

[Nemu]

2 hours ago, Jacke said:

Better DPA, shorter Arcanatime

If only everyone cared about that for every build...

 

Also I don't disagree with you, but having played this game for so long, I've long passed the absolute min/max performance phase of my COH life. Now I just min/max within the goals I set for the build ^_^ If damage was one of my goals I surely would not have build it like this.

[Onlyasandwich]

58 minutes ago, Nemu said:

Now I just min/max within the goals I set for the build

This is the way!

 

Pick the fun thing you want to do, embrace it, and optimize towards it within the parameters of fun.

[WuTang]

On 12/6/2024 at 9:15 AM, Onlyasandwich said:

This is the way!

 

Pick the fun thing you want to do, embrace it, and optimize towards it within the parameters of fun.

Yup I agree!

 

My only thing is that each AT is different. Knowing how to play/build a Blaster doesn't really help you with a Corruptor and knowing a Corruptor doesn't help you know a Defender. I like hollering at the community and getting educated on how the specific AT works and maybe look over some builds to see how people are slotting certain powers. I can build a tough AT, but most of the time my damage output isn't terribly high...until after I've learned what can be loosened or what it can live without. I also haven't yet experienced at the different power sets, nor all the powers within the sets I have used. Like I've got 2 Dark Blast Corruptors and only just found out how great Torrent is.

 

But sometimes I can't be trusted even with an AT I think I know...I absolutely ruined my SS/Inv Brute lol  Gotta fix that guy!

 

I'm coming up on a year with this community...and I'm still learning from each of you.

 

 

[Thraxen]

Take taunt. You can get by without it but it comes in handy a lot. The -range is huge. Keeps rom and director 11 from running. Someone aggros another group?  Taunt them and they come to you. Instead of ignoring them or jumping away to them. It’s a one slot power although some of the set bonuses are great if you happen to have extra. 

[Thraxen]

Also, I’ll still never get a tank using fold space on an ITF. They are the easiest shit to herd probably in any game. Aside from surgeons but that  is what I’m usually on the team for anyway lol. 

[WuTang]

OK after much deliberation....and taking everyone's advice into account....and wanting to at least try one power set I haven't yet....I've chosen Rad/Stone.

 

And so more questions are likely to follow, Like...

 

Does Fault knock up or back? Also, why does /Stone seem to have such low accuracy?

 

Let me know where I can improve or if I've made some poor choices. I wanted it to recharge quick and max out as many resists as possible and pepper in some defense. I know Rad fairly well, @Sovera helped me build one of my best Brutes an Energy/Rad. I also wanted to throw in as many -res as I could and try to make it so I could maintain -20% on the mobs. I shot for as many debuff resists as I could get as well. My endurance use came out a bit high, IMO but I think it'll be OK.

 

Thanks!

-WT

Tanker (Radiation Armor - Stone Melee)1.0.mbd

[Sanguinesun]

39 minutes ago, WuTang said:

OK after much deliberation....and taking everyone's advice into account....and wanting to at least try one power set I haven't yet....I've chosen Rad/Stone.

 

And so more questions are likely to follow, Like...

 

Does Fault knock up or back? Also, why does /Stone seem to have such low accuracy?

 

Let me know where I can improve or if I've made some poor choices. I wanted it to recharge quick and max out as many resists as possible and pepper in some defense. I know Rad fairly well, @Sovera helped me build one of my best Brutes an Energy/Rad. I also wanted to throw in as many -res as I could and try to make it so I could maintain -20% on the mobs. I shot for as many debuff resists as I could get as well. My endurance use came out a bit high, IMO but I think it'll be OK.

 

Thanks!

-WT

Tanker (Radiation Armor - Stone Melee)1.0.mbd 42.73 kB · 0 downloads

 

Just fiddling around  for a moment with your considerations:

 

If you didnt proc-a-billy RT and made some different choices, you could achieve:

 

1. 90% cap on all res but cold(45%'d)

2. higher overall defense (2%-4% depending on the type except slightly lower in melee positional (3%ish) and less than 1% difference in s/l defense)

3. slighly lower +recharge(255% only meaning a very minimal difference (less than a sec on faster recharges and 1-2 sec on longer ones mostly)

4. have your some of your stone melee attacks jump significantly in damage (Seismic Smash would go from 488 to 688(before build up and proc... 989 with it) as one example).

5. 200%+ more to your regen

6. and have roughly the same recovery to end drain ratio(different stats mind you) but with slightly better end discount across powers(2% better).

7. 12%+ better overall +tohit

8. Higher max end and max hp.

 

And the only primary sacrifice you'd have to make is taking a S.T.A.R.T travel power and dropping super jump(and that slow resist IO).

 

I'll attach the build but of note, from that build its not hard to also make other melee set variations maintaining similar/better/slightly less results over all.

 

 

 

 

 

Tanker - All Res Radiation Armor - StoneV2.mbd

[WuTang]

41 minutes ago, Sanguinesun said:

 

Just fiddling around  for a moment with your considerations:

 

If you didnt proc-a-billy RT and made some different choices, you could achieve:

 

1. 90% cap on all res but cold(45%'d)

2. higher overall defense (2%-4% depending on the type except slightly lower in melee positional (3%ish) and less than 1% difference in s/l defense)

3. slighly lower +recharge(255% only meaning a very minimal difference (less than a sec on faster recharges and 1-2 sec on longer ones mostly)

4. have your some of your stone melee attacks jump significantly in damage (Seismic Smash would go from 488 to 688(before build up and proc... 989 with it) as one example).

5. 200%+ more to your regen

6. and have roughly the same recovery to end drain ratio(different stats mind you) but with slightly better end discount across powers(2% better).

7. 12%+ better overall +tohit

8. Higher max end and max hp.

 

And the only primary sacrifice you'd have to make is taking a S.T.A.R.T travel power and dropping super jump(and that slow resist IO).

 

I'll attach the build but of note, from that build its not hard to also make other melee set variations maintaining similar/better/slightly less results over all.

 

 

 

 

 

Tanker - All Res Radiation Armor - StoneV2.mbd 42.92 kB · 0 downloads

With that level of resists coupled with the Tanker's ATO resist proc, does that make it basically deduff proof?

Also, insane regen!

[Sanguinesun]

Not really.

 

Also I didnt mention but from choosing tactics vs your focused accuracy, you're also getting fear/confuse protections which are a hole with your rad build as well. 

 

You should also have better absorb results too due to the incarn choice.

 

Edited December 10 by Sanguinesun

[Sovera]

Sanguinesun is spot on. Personally I never bother with Fault but your mileage may vary. I find it costs too much, recharges too slowly, and hits like a noddle. I don't need the CC (again, mileage, variance, etc).

 

Because it does all of this Fault needs actual slotting instead of proc bombage.

 

 

I notice you don't have Stone Fists. Annoying as it is to fit another attack and actually use a T1 the rotation has gaps without it. In my experience with Stone Melee the ST rotation goes something like Seismic Smash, Stone Fists, Heavy Stone Mallet, Stone Fists, Heavy Mallet, Stone Fists. Depending on recharge you can remove one of those Stone Fists.

 

Six slotting the purple in Seismic Smash gives you no dividends. 5% defense to psi? You have no defense to psi so what's 5% more going to do? That's actually 6% to T/P, maybe worth it. But I'd still put in the purple damage proc since it adds to the ST damage that Tankers are lacking. Replace the Damage one for a purple damage proc from the Hold sets.

 

I would also five slot Armageddon in Tremor and the 6th slot a FF.

 

You have WAY too much S/L res so you don't need both 6th slots in Stone Mallet and Heavy Stone Mallet. Replace one for a FF proc.

 

I'd six slot Bombardment into Fault tbh.

 

 

And of course you're well aware by now that the Tanker ATO adds 13% so no need to aim for 90%. You want 77%. If you want to account for Barrier it's around 73%. You can shave a lot of your slotting away and put those in more useful places.

Edited December 10 by Sovera

[WuTang]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

Sanguinesun is spot on. Personally I never bother with Fault but your mileage may vary. I find it costs too much, recharges too slowly, and hits like a noddle. I don't need the CC (again, mileage, variance, etc).

 

Because it does all of this Fault needs actual slotting instead of proc bombage.

 

 

I notice you don't have Stone Fists. Annoying as it is to fit another attack and actually use a T1 the rotation has gaps without it. In my experience with Stone Melee the ST rotation goes something like Seismic Smash, Stone Fists, Heavy Stone Mallet, Stone Fists, Heavy Mallet, Stone Fists. Depending on recharge you can remove one of those Stone Fists.

 

Six slotting the purple in Seismic Smash gives you no dividends. 5% defense to psi? You have no defense to psi so what's 5% more going to do? That's actually 6% to T/P, maybe worth it. But I'd still put in the purple damage proc since it adds to the ST damage that Tankers are lacking. Replace the Damage one for a purple damage proc from the Hold sets.

 

I would also five slot Armageddon in Tremor and the 6th slot a FF.

 

You have WAY too much S/L res so you don't need both 6th slots in Stone Mallet and Heavy Stone Mallet. Replace one for a FF proc.

 

I'd six slot Bombardment into Fault tbh.

 

 

And of course you're well aware by now that the Tanker ATO adds 13% so no need to aim for 90%. You want 77%. If you want to account for Barrier it's around 73%. You can shave a lot of your slotting away and put those in more useful places.

I was using Fault for +recharge and acc set bonus from Armageddon flipping slots between Fault and Tremor net the same result for my goal. The only reason I took Fault was to have 2 AOE +recharge procs that all but guarantees 100% up time.

 

I did notice, somewhere, that Tankers can get away with ~76% resist and let the ATO proc fill in the rest. If that is the case, wouldn't 90% be overkill? But then again I read that 100% resistance levels help resist debuffs.

 

Edit: also...  Fault and Tremor are they knockback, up, or down?

Edited December 10 by WuTang

[Psyonico]

2 hours ago, WuTang said:

I was using Fault for +recharge and acc set bonus from Armageddon flipping slots between Fault and Tremor net the same result for my goal. The only reason I took Fault was to have 2 AOE +recharge procs that all but guarantees 100% up time.

 

I did notice, somewhere, that Tankers can get away with ~76% resist and let the ATO proc fill in the rest. If that is the case, wouldn't 90% be overkill? But then again I read that 100% resistance levels help resist debuffs.

 

Edit: also...  Fault and Tremor are they knockback, up, or down?

Fault is knock up, tremor is knock down

[tidge]

Some minor suggestion about Tanker builds that I try to incorporate:

 

Health: *if* the Numina's Convalescence +Recovery piece is going in Health (which is often an excellent spot for it), I usually try to include another slot for the Numina Healing/Absorb piece as well. Normally I'm cold on extra Regeneration, but for Tankers' large HP pool I think this is a good choice.

 

Build Up: I almost never 1-slot this. If the slotting is going to be minimal, I'll add a second slot (behind the %BuildUp piece) for a Recharge IO.

 

Hasten: I occasionally do take this on Tankers, also late, but considering where it ends up in my builds I usually don't bother adding a second slot to it. Depending on teh content you intend to play, a mule power for a LotG Global Recharge piece might end up helping the build play smoother.

 

Unbreakable Guard: I usually don't slot this set with more than 4 pieces.

 

Power Transfer: I *believe* there was a slight patch that made it such that the %Heal piece can be in more than one power and each of them has a chance to fire. For Tankers, the %Heal from Power Transfer is IIRC providing more +HP than the Panacea piece (but don't skip the Panacea unique) I don't MIDS so I can't see what is in Gamma Boost and Stamina, so I don't know if this is applicable, but only one Performance Shifter +End does anything, and any singleton EndMod piece may as well be a (boosted) EndMod IO.

 

I didn't notice the Reactive Defenses Scaling Damage Resistance piece in the build. I'd include that before adding any of the Impervium Armor globals.

[WuTang]

50 minutes ago, tidge said:

Some minor suggestion about Tanker builds that I try to incorporate:

 

Health: *if* the Numina's Convalescence +Recovery piece is going in Health (which is often an excellent spot for it), I usually try to include another slot for the Numina Healing/Absorb piece as well. Normally I'm cold on extra Regeneration, but for Tankers' large HP pool I think this is a good choice.

 

Build Up: I almost never 1-slot this. If the slotting is going to be minimal, I'll add a second slot (behind the %BuildUp piece) for a Recharge IO.

 

Hasten: I occasionally do take this on Tankers, also late, but considering where it ends up in my builds I usually don't bother adding a second slot to it. Depending on teh content you intend to play, a mule power for a LotG Global Recharge piece might end up helping the build play smoother.

 

Unbreakable Guard: I usually don't slot this set with more than 4 pieces.

 

Power Transfer: I *believe* there was a slight patch that made it such that the %Heal piece can be in more than one power and each of them has a chance to fire. For Tankers, the %Heal from Power Transfer is IIRC providing more +HP than the Panacea piece (but don't skip the Panacea unique) I don't MIDS so I can't see what is in Gamma Boost and Stamina, so I don't know if this is applicable, but only one Performance Shifter +End does anything, and any singleton EndMod piece may as well be a (boosted) EndMod IO.

 

I didn't notice the Reactive Defenses Scaling Damage Resistance piece in the build. I'd include that before adding any of the Impervium Armor globals.

With all the recharge in the build, according to MIDs Build UP will have approximately 50% up time.

 

On Hasten I was building towards a fast recharge build. I monkeyed around with the powers quite alot before I finished but plan to take Hasten much earlier than the build shows. It could probably be argued that it could get away with 1 slot, but when I exemp down the build's recharge will be affected and Hasten won't likely be perma at that point.

 

Unbreakable Guard can only be 6 slotted once and those fat 3.75% T/P and 5.25% F/C resists are tasty.

 

Not arguing, just giving my reasons. but I'm going to rearrange the slotting any ways cause @Soveraanswered my question about the ATO resist proc....before I even asked.

[tidge]

One of the things I generally dislike about Hasten, Hasten, Eggs, Bacon and Hasten is that builds often include it and then get pigeon-holed into making other decisions to attempt to make it "perma". I used to do this! I stopped after experimenting with playing content without putting Hasten on auto, and found that I either didn't need Hasten at all, or that I really only needed it for very limited circumstances. For Tankers, that could be some sort of self-heal or long-recharge defensive boost for face-engaging certain AVs. I definitely wouldn't rely on the FF +Recharge to make Hasten "perma", any attack that can take a FF +Recharge can take at least one %damage piece, or a soft-control KB->KD piece, or something else that will improve damage/survival.

 

When I do take Hasten, it's usually just before or just after taking the power that I feel needs it, or if it is exclusively for 50+ content it can come really late in the build and have no practical impact by taking it so late. MIDS of course can show what the cycle time on powers will be with-or-without using Hasten. Generally I find in the time reduction is on the order of the Arcana time I won't bother with Hasten.

[WuTang]

42 minutes ago, tidge said:

One of the things I generally dislike about Hasten, Hasten, Eggs, Bacon and Hasten is that builds often include it and then get pigeon-holed into making other decisions to attempt to make it "perma". I used to do this! I stopped after experimenting with playing content without putting Hasten on auto, and found that I either didn't need Hasten at all, or that I really only needed it for very limited circumstances. For Tankers, that could be some sort of self-heal or long-recharge defensive boost for face-engaging certain AVs. I definitely wouldn't rely on the FF +Recharge to make Hasten "perma", any attack that can take a FF +Recharge can take at least one %damage piece, or a soft-control KB->KD piece, or something else that will improve damage/survival.

 

When I do take Hasten, it's usually just before or just after taking the power that I feel needs it, or if it is exclusively for 50+ content it can come really late in the build and have no practical impact by taking it so late. MIDS of course can show what the cycle time on powers will be with-or-without using Hasten. Generally I find in the time reduction is on the order of the Arcana time I won't bother with Hasten.

I get that. But the powers FF +recharge are in already have control aspects and to be honest, don't think I need them...just like to make bad guys flop around at will. The fact that I get a +recharge boost is just icing on the cake. Without the FF +recharge it's only 6 sec off perma, but with them they knock 13 sec off Particle Shield, 12 sec off Ground Zero, and 13 sec off Radiation Therapy. In-game be slightly different, but those are some significant recharge reductions on some powerful powers.

[Octogoat]

I hate tankers but this chrismey I was determined to make an ice character I could stick with so tired ice/spines where spines are ice crystals. I am now addicted to my tank. The thing cannot die as I'm leveling it. And using path aura + superspeed + power slide for an ice surfing power is fun

[WuTang]

Ok might be pivoting a little... Stone Melee isn't looking too good to me. Will level it out a bit more and see, but with that I've worked on another build Rad/MA.

 

Quick question about Storm Kick. In MIDs the tooltip implies a plus to positional defenses, but all defenses seem to be affected, except P/T. Which is correct?

 

Edit:

 

And which is better to skip, Crane Kick or Crippling Axe Kick?

Edited December 13 by WuTang

[Sanguinesun]

2 hours ago, WuTang said:

Ok might be pivoting a little... Stone Melee isn't looking too good to me. Will level it out a bit more and see, but with that I've worked on another build Rad/MA.

 

Quick question about Storm Kick. In MIDs the tooltip implies a plus to positional defenses, but all defenses seem to be affected, except P/T. Which is correct?

 

Edit:

 

And which is better to skip, Crane Kick or Crippling Axe Kick?

 

 

Remember not all toons level well 1-50. Some are smooth and others are roller coasters and others are just a pit of hell until incarnates are done.

 

Mids tends to have all sorts issues and should only be used as a basic guidelines.  tool tips, stats and more can be anomalous.  Just the other day I was toggling on and off just ONE power and the endurance listed globally was giving between 2-4 different numbers.   Current care takers of Mids basically are dealing with it being a bit of a spaghetti code situation.  

 

Always when you intend a build that you really want to push beyond gen pop casual to 50, make sure you test out information on it via the beta server if you want to have the closest in game stat applications for it.  If its just for gen pop causual though mids does what it needs.  Most people who get cookie cutter builds from here or mids discord etc rarely fully incarn out to the max the builds they get.

 

That said, Its 10% all but p/t for SK.  

[WuTang]

42 minutes ago, Sanguinesun said:

 

 

Remember not all toons level well 1-50. Some are smooth and others are roller coasters and others are just a pit of hell until incarnates are done.

 

Mids tends to have all sorts issues and should only be used as a basic guidelines.  tool tips, stats and more can be anomalous.  Just the other day I was toggling on and off just ONE power and the endurance listed globally was giving between 2-4 different numbers.   Current care takers of Mids basically are dealing with it being a bit of a spaghetti code situation.  

 

Always when you intend a build that you really want to push beyond gen pop casual to 50, make sure you test out information on it via the beta server if you want to have the closest in game stat applications for it.  If its just for gen pop causual though mids does what it needs.  Most people who get cookie cutter builds from here or mids discord etc rarely fully incarn out to the max the builds they get.

 

That said, Its 10% all but p/t for SK.  

Yeah, I've noticed some so small inconsistencies as well, but on the whole it's a very useful tool, especially as I'm not experienced well enough with CoH to just look at a screen shot and know what's someone has done. 

Preciate the heads up on the info. And I ended up skipping Crane Kick and took Crippling Axe Kick so I could stack another -res.

[Maelwys]

3 hours ago, WuTang said:

Quick question about Storm Kick. In MIDs the tooltip implies a plus to positional defenses, but all defenses seem to be affected, except P/T. Which is correct?

https://cod.uberguy.net./html/power.html?power=tanker_melee.martial_arts.storm_kick&at=tanker

[WuTang]

Just a quick update...at level 45 now and feeling good about the build. I've stacked four -20% res, and I could be wrong, but I think that's helping the ST damage out a good bit. It doesn't feel mushy.

 

I've had a thought though.... Would it be beneficial to swap the +res ATO set into Storm Kick instead of Cobra Strike? My thinking is that Storm Kick is a must as it benefits my defenses so adding the +res seems like a "WTH didn't I do that in the first place stupid?!" But would the reduced proc chance gimp the ATO set? It would allow me to skip Cobra Strike if needed. Right now I'm hitting it on recharge to ensure I keep the 2 to 3 stacks maintained.

 

I could throw it into Dragon's Tail instead but if I expemp below 20 I won't have access to it. Also, if it's in the PBAOE, can it stack with one power cycle, or no?

 

This is the current build...

Tanker (Radiation Armor - Martial Arts)1.1.mbd