Null da Gull Knockback

[Snarky]

17 hours ago, biostem said:

Can... can I just get a version of energy blast w/o the KB in every attack?  Elec is ok, but it's not the same, and I don't wanna play a WS to get a janky version of the blasts.  Heck, I'd even settle for being able to use the energy blast animations on other blast sets, at this point...

energy blast is so pretty.  and, besides (like everyone) doing less damage than Fire, pays a 1 slot penalty on every power... so does less DPS than any other Blast set in game.  

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Snarky said:

energy blast is so pretty.  and, besides (like everyone) doing less damage than Fire, pays a 1 slot penalty on every power... so does less DPS than any other Blast set in game.  

 

It's really not necessary to put it in the single target attacks.

[biostem]

Just now, Wavicle said:

It's really not necessary to put it in the single target attacks.

It isn't "necessary" to slot acc or damage, either, but it's sure nice to do so...

[Snarky]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

 

It's really not necessary to put it in the single target attacks.

i agree, although at this point we are dogs begging for scraps.  anything, just drop anything from the table up there!

[biostem]

Kind of a "side suggestion" - what if they added a few IO sets, (ranged, AoE, melee, melee AoE, or a universal damage set), that instead of having a special IO that changed KB to KD, it had decent set bonuses, with one of those being the conversion of KB->KD, (maybe from only slotting 2 or 3)?

Edited 21 hours ago by biostem

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, biostem said:

Kind of a "side suggestion" - what if they added a few IO sets, (ranged, AoE, melee, melee AoE, or a universal damage set), that instead of having a special IO that changed KB to KD, it had decent set bonuses, with one of those being the conversion of KB->KD, (maybe from only slotting 2 or 3)?

Then players would be decrying it as a garbage set for wasting a set bonus slot on converting KB to KD unless it was a global change. And I personally oppose a global set bonus or proc for converting KB to KD. Just like I oppose a Null the Gull toggle. I am firmly of the camp to make KB more appealing to the player base in general rather than trying to murder it and drop it in a forgotten ditch somewhere.

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I am firmly of the camp to make KB more appealing to the player base in general

It is literally impossible to make an effect that scatters enemies "more appealing", when keeping them all nicely clumped together is preferable, (short of having any KB effect 1-shot enemies).

[Rudra]

7 minutes ago, biostem said:

It is literally impossible to make an effect that scatters enemies "more appealing", when keeping them all nicely clumped together is preferable, (short of having any KB effect 1-shot enemies).

Given the ideas already proposed across multiple threads and that the main complaint from players complaining about KB is relevant to DPS? I disagree. (Edit: Especially since powers like Fold Space can be used to immediately yank scattered mobs back to the group.) And I'll leave it at that.

 

Edit again: That could be a fun power set to have.... a power set that includes a few attraction powers, like a reverse KB. Make an Energy Blast/New Set Blaster that alternates blasting enemies away and then bouncing them back in. Would make for hilarious crowd control.

 

Edited 21 hours ago by Rudra

[biostem]

5 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Given the ideas already proposed across multiple threads and that the main complaint from players complaining about KB is relevant to DPS? I disagree. (Edit: Especially since powers like Fold Space can be used to immediately yank scattered mobs back to the group.) And I'll leave it at that.

So you shoot down my suggestion of an IO set with a bonus being KB->KD, but are in favor of taking a completely separate power to re-group those knocked-back enemies?  This doesn't track...

[Rudra]

7 minutes ago, biostem said:

So you shoot down my suggestion of an IO set with a bonus being KB->KD

 

20 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Then players would be decrying it as a garbage set for wasting a set bonus slot on converting KB to KD unless it was a global change.

Do you really think this wouldn't happen? With everything we have both seen on these forums?

 

 

7 minutes ago, biostem said:

but are in favor of taking a completely separate power to re-group those knocked-back enemies? 

Options are options. Adding more options that falls in line with how the game has been made/presented is great. Including more powers that yank mobs to you. I really enjoy Teleport Target, it just doesn't work against as many mobs as I would like. Adding options that you know full well will be demanded of any player joining a team and takes away the whole point of an established game mechanic simply so the current meta group can keep facerolling game content isn't something I can support. (Edit: Especially as it has already been established that learning how to leverage KB to benefit teams is not a difficult skill to learn. It just takes a willingness to actually approach the situation tactically rather than trying to faceroll everything you see.)

 

Edited 21 hours ago by Rudra

[biostem]

Just now, Rudra said:

Do you really think this wouldn't happen? With everything we have both seen on these forums?

People will always complain, but people complaining is not grounds to *not* do something.

 

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

Options are options.

What I'm having difficulty in understanding is how providing a KB->KD set bonus is worse than advising people to just take another power, (one that, should be pointed out, requires 2 other TP powers to take).

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, biostem said:

What I'm having difficulty in understanding is how providing a KB->KD set bonus is worse than advising people to just take another power, (one that, should be pointed out, requires 2 other TP powers to take).

I wasn't saying it was. So kindly don't portray me as doing so.

 

Edited 21 hours ago by Rudra
Edited to correct "Still" to "So".

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

don't portray me as doing so.

 

17 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Especially since powers like Fold Space can be used to immediately yank scattered mobs back to the group.)

 

25 minutes ago, Rudra said:

players would be decrying it as a garbage set for wasting a set bonus slot on converting KB to KD

 

You seem to be implying, from the above quotes, that fold space is a better or more preferable alternative to introducing an IO set with a set bonus that converts KB->KD.

[Wavicle]

50 minutes ago, biostem said:

It isn't "necessary" to slot acc or damage, either, but it's sure nice to do so...

Not even remotely comparable.

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, biostem said:

4 minutes ago, Rudra said:

don't portray me as doing so.

 

20 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Especially since powers like Fold Space can be used to immediately yank scattered mobs back to the group.)

 

27 minutes ago, Rudra said:

players would be decrying it as a garbage set for wasting a set bonus slot on converting KB to KD

 

You seem to be implying, from the above quotes, that fold space is a better or more preferable alternative to introducing an IO set with a set bonus that converts KB->KD.

You are reading more into my comments than is there.

 

28 minutes ago, Rudra said:

32 minutes ago, biostem said:

Kind of a "side suggestion" - what if they added a few IO sets, (ranged, AoE, melee, melee AoE, or a universal damage set), that instead of having a special IO that changed KB to KD, it had decent set bonuses, with one of those being the conversion of KB->KD, (maybe from only slotting 2 or 3)?

Then players would be decrying it as a garbage set for wasting a set bonus slot on converting KB to KD unless it was a global change.

In this response, with your quote as further reference, I am telling you that just like where players complain about Sudden Acceleration and Overwhelming Force, though mostly Sudden Acceleration, the player base that is currently screaming about enhancement taxes will treat a set bonus the same way. Worse even depending on what the enhancements in the set do and what the preceding set bonuses up to the KB to KD effect are. That is not in and of itself a "no" to your suggestion. It is simply feedback.

 

31 minutes ago, Rudra said:

And I personally oppose a global set bonus or proc for converting KB to KD. Just like I oppose a Null the Gull toggle. I am firmly of the camp to make KB more appealing to the player base in general rather than trying to murder it and drop it in a forgotten ditch somewhere.

This response sets my position as opposed to any attempts to make a global KB to KD effect. If the set bonus applies to just the slotted power? I'm fine with it. Depending on the enhancements that form the set and what the other bonuses are, I may even use the set. However, if the bonus is intended as a global KB to KD change? I oppose it as already stated.

 

26 minutes ago, Rudra said:

(Edit: Especially since powers like Fold Space can be used to immediately yank scattered mobs back to the group.)

Aside from tactical deployment of KB effects, we do have the means available to us to counter sudden KB effects that may disrupt our teamwork. Using KB tactically is always an option, just an option that multiple players refuse to invest any effort in. There is also the option of Teleport Target. However, Teleport Target is a single target ability and does not affect a great many mobs. And then there is Fold Space. All these are options for teams dealing with KB from members. I support more such options, but I was giving an example of one such option.

 

19 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Options are options. Adding more options that falls in line with how the game has been made/presented is great. Including more powers that yank mobs to you. I really enjoy Teleport Target, it just doesn't work against as many mobs as I would like. Adding options that you know full well will be demanded of any player joining a team and takes away the whole point of an established game mechanic simply so the current meta group can keep facerolling game content isn't something I can support. (Edit: Especially as it has already been established that learning how to leverage KB to benefit teams is not a difficult skill to learn. It just takes a willingness to actually approach the situation tactically rather than trying to faceroll everything you see.)

Reiteration of preceding clarification.

[Wavicle]

30 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Edit again: That could be a fun power set to have.... a power set that includes a few attraction powers, like a reverse KB. Make an Energy Blast/New Set Blaster that alternates blasting enemies away and then bouncing them back in. Would make for hilarious crowd control.

 

 

Power Push should be redesigned to do that in some way, which I've suggested before.

Wouldn't help Peacebringers, Storm Summoners, or anyone else though.

[Techwright]

18 hours ago, Wavicle said:

I'm not entirely sure, but on the off chance you aren't just trolling me. The reason teams want you to add KB>KD enhancements is because NOT having them slows down the speed of killing, aka decreases DPS. Therefore adding them is a DPS increase.

 

If adding them was NOT a DPS increase, people wouldn't care.

Ah, I see now. Thank you for clarifying.  I wasn't trolling.  Perhaps I was just too tired when looking at it all.  I misinterpreted the DPS comment as something the enhancement inherently increased in the character, that is, built into the enhancement, not improvement of team speed external to the enhancement.  I've been aware for years that teams love the KB>KD to keep things moving.   I also long ago learned to line up the KB shots to bank flying opponents off walls and such to keep them contained, something I rarely see other ENG blasters do these days, but that's a slightly different kettle of fish from this discussion.

[tidge]

19 hours ago, DrRocket said:

I support this on and off switch via the Gull or via options like its done for teleport and should be also there for group fly...

 

We already have complaints from (some) players who don't want to visit Null the Gull so that Group Fly doesn't affect them, can you imagine the vitriol because (some) players wouldn't visit Null the Gull to "turn off Knockback"?

[Snarky]

54 minutes ago, biostem said:

Kind of a "side suggestion" - what if they added a few IO sets, (ranged, AoE, melee, melee AoE, or a universal damage set), that instead of having a special IO that changed KB to KD, it had decent set bonuses, with one of those being the conversion of KB->KD, (maybe from only slotting 2 or 3)?

Any new sets are a great idea in my opinion 

[biostem]

8 minutes ago, Rudra said:

You are reading more into my comments than is there

I keep revisiting energy blast hoping to find some eloquent solution to the KB.  Telling people they can take a power from the teleport pool, which requires 2 prerequisite powers, is not this.  IO set bonuses would be one way to address the loss of a more useful 6th slot instead of the KB->KD IO.  Either way, I'm not going to bother quoting quotes of prior quotes.  Do what you like, but I'm not going to bother responding on this any further.

[Luminara]

I see that some (most?) of the people arguing haven't read the developer post that I linked, in which he/she not only states that the team doesn't like the idea of uniform KB->KD, but goes on to outline their preferred method of dealing with the situation.

 

Or notice that three of the four things he/she outlined have been implemented.

 

And that the fourth thing is exactly what some of you have mentioned wanting, bonus damage on knocked foes.

 

This is like watching Kelly Bundy and Madison from Zombieland: Double Tap try to "educate" each other.

[tidge]

1 minute ago, biostem said:

I keep revisiting energy blast hoping to find some eloquent solution to the KB. 

 

Do what you like, but I'm not going to bother responding on this any further.

 

Playing Energy Blast is more-or-less it's own reward. FWIW, I only slot a KB->KD in Nova, because the 4π scatter is where I draw the line/circumference/surface/whatever.

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

I see that some (most?) of the people arguing haven't read the developer post that I linked, in which he/she not only states that the team doesn't like the idea of uniform KB->KD, but goes on to outline their preferred method of dealing with the situation.

 

Or notice that three of the four things he/she outlined have been implemented.

 

And that the fourth thing is exactly what some of you have mentioned wanting, bonus damage on knocked foes.

 

This is like watching Kelly Bundy and Madison from Zombieland: Double Tap try to "educate" each other.

No i read it.  It was ignorance in a pie crust.  Unheated.  
 

the dev likes the “feel” of knockback

 

killspeed should be looked at… somewhere else

 

if they “fix” knockback anyone who uses knockback will be unloved.  
 

1) knockback is cool

2) we are murder hobos.  How you going to fix that?

3) people that use Knockback were in the past, are now, and will forever be unloved

 

just a shit sandwich of drivel and stupidity. 
 

thanks for asking

[golstat2003]

3 hours ago, Snarky said:

Any new sets are a great idea in my opinion 

 

As a set bonus for a particular power, I too think it's a great idea.

[golstat2003]

I missed Lum's linked post. If a dev has already said a global change ain't happen then it ain't.

 

More damage on KB'd foes would be welcome, but I'd have to see just how much more damage it is.

 

And again for me if they do nothing, that's fine. I have no problem with KB.