The "greying" of Longbow

[ZamuelNow]

While I haven't read the comics yet and there's in game plots I've missed, I'm a little weirded out that people thought that Miss Liberty was a teenager.  But I think that ties to the comment that not all of the game's writing is good combined with comic book time.

 

I've always felt that Longbow was the game's best faction due to the ability to tell so many different stories with them ranging G.I. Joe pure heroics to vigilantes going too far.  The problem is that the devs seemed to only want to go darker.  While the Horrors of War is a great storyline, in a lot of ways it feels more like a way to showcase (again) that Nemesis is a racist madman as opposed to showcasing Tendaji's goodness or Dietrich's change of heart.  Then the issue where real world perception of things like the military and police affects the view of the game's factions.  I think the PPD in particular get hit by this on multiple different layers but I think that may require a separate post.

[Octogoat]

Longbow always seemed like the coh version of S.H.I.E.L.D to me and miss liberty is the nick fury so to speak.

[El D]

4 hours ago, huang3721 said:

It is possible most if not all story arcs about Ms. Liberty commanding Longbow was happening between Issue 5 and 10. Assuming we could use their publication dates, that would mean the whole Longbow thing happened two years after the initial Rikti invasion (2006 ish). It could be even shorter if CoH is using comic book time.

My point is others' interpretation can be as valid as yours, because what we have here are mostly based on assumptions.

 

CoH doesn't use comic book time. They didn't use comic book time for the canon lore timeline and every Issue introducing content on Live accounted for that content occurring in the year it was released (they even had Paragon Times news articles released referencing these events as new and current changes explicitly occurring on the Issue release dates). There's also Penelope Yin, who aged a fitting 8 years in the same timespan from Issue 8 to Issue 23. That's not an assumption, that's how the devs ran the timeline. It's also how the HC devs run the timeline, given the plaques for the Bicentennial badge (and the Bicentennial badge itself).

 

Quote

Monument 1: 200 Years of Paragon

 

In 1823, during the 'Era of Good Feelings' that followed the War of 1812, the town of Smithport united with neighboring villages to create a large and bustling port city. The first mayor of the city, George Maylor, named the region after his desire to build a city to represent the pinnacle of virtue, justice, freedom, and prosperity within the United States: Paragon City. The city that would one day become known as the birthplace of the modern hero. As guardian and champion of the people, the Hero remains the truest symbol of those noble, defiant ideals; the exalted spirit of Paragon made manifest.

 

This plaque was placed in 2023, alongside a number of others, to celebrate the 200th anniversary of the birth of the city. These streets have changed in many ways since that first union, and the people have been through many trials, but those ideals remain true within us, and we remain victorious.

 

Also on the topic of time passing, to bring this back around, that could also make Ms. Liberty stepping up and Longbow shaping up a stronger arc to have. How Libby has handled leading Longbow in that time frame is an interesting question. How have her personal views changed and how has she handled taking up Statesman's legacy? How did the death of Statesman and the reshaping of the Phalanx impact Longbow's morale and motivation? What about the wake of the Praetorian war and integrating various Big Name Praetorians into Primal society? I imagine many agents doubled down on the need for true blue heroism and were willing to accept anyone who'd earnestly stand with them, while some others might've abandoned the cause. Shoot, Longbow could even address the 'vigilantism' in their ranks with a Hero morality arc, where they deal with a group of the Redside Candy Canes and tackle that whole depiction - a 'We don't seeing a place for that kind of thing in modern Longbow' approach. It'd even fit with Ms. Liberty's idea of wanting to reform Recluse. Arachnos having to contend with gun-happy Longbow in the Isles is an active detriment to her plan, so they scale down offensive operations, discipline the agents who engaged in it, and focus more on humanitarian aid to the citizens.

Edited Sunday at 04:06 PM by El D

[Zhym]

On 3/9/2025 at 12:26 AM, El D said:

Alternately (spoilers)

  Reveal hidden contents

Just bring Sefu back. Off the cuff I'm not in-favor of that narrative choice since it kind of undercuts his death but also, it's not like resurrection handwaves aren't available out the wazoo in this setting as is. Why not give it to the good dude who deserves it? That way there could be a Hero morality arc with Sefu and a Vigilante arc with Dietrich, bring some of those Praetorian mission tech choices into Primal Earth.

 

This is a trivial fix in a game in which Ouroboros exists.  Especially since Ouroboros seems sadly underutilized for story purposes, IMO.  It could use more arcs like Laura Lockhart's that do more than just let you run content you leveled out of. 

[Andreah]

I don't mind that Longbow has a dark side. But these should be splinter faction that the main body of Longbow rejects and even enlists us (as heroes) to help find, break off, and bring to justice. And as villains... there could be other opportunities in that.

[Octogoat]

3 minutes ago, Andreah said:

I don't mind that Longbow has a dark side. But these should be splinter faction that the main body of Longbow rejects and even enlists us (as heroes) to help find, break off, and bring to justice. And as villains... there could be other opportunities in that.

Could do something down the line where you recruit corrupted longbow and start your own villainous enterprise in Etoile and decisions you've made up to that point decide which Etoile building you've converted into your evil fortress. Kind of a bridge between SG bases and the rest of the game.

[El D]

1 hour ago, Zhym said:

This is a trivial fix in a game in which Ouroboros exists.  Especially since Ouroboros seems sadly underutilized for story purposes, IMO.  It could use more arcs like Laura Lockhart's that do more than just let you run content you leveled out of. 

 

The quibble with that is the Laura Lockhart flashback arc is a deliberate subversion of Ouroboros' purpose to maintain canon integrity against time travel shenanigans. It's an example of what the menders aim to avoid if at all possible, with Laura getting a very specific exception. If flashback arcs provided the option of undoing or changing the canon outcome, there ceases to be collective continuity to advance and write with. Also, there'd be an avalanche of posts with people demanding specific revised endings to their favorite arcs, which by itself would probably make that too much of a dev headache.

 

That said, I would be interested in seeing a very angry Ms. Liberty interrogating Mender Silos about why Statesman had to die the way he did. Possibly even backed up by Recluse. Even years later I imagine that he's still absolutely furious some no-name ex-Midnighter was the one to get Marcus and not him.

[Zhym]

16 minutes ago, El D said:

The quibble with that is the Laura Lockhart flashback arc is a deliberate subversion of Ouroboros' purpose to maintain canon integrity against time travel shenanigans.

Of course, the answer to that is that "canon integrity" is whatever the devs want to say it is.  Ouroboros is a license to retcon. :)

[huang3721]

On 3/9/2025 at 11:05 PM, El D said:

There's also Penelope Yin, who aged a fitting 8 years in the same timespan from Issue 8 to Issue 23. That's not an assumption, that's how the devs ran the timeline. It's also how the HC devs run the timeline, given the plaques for the Bicentennial badge (and the Bicentennial badge itself).

 

Yes, there's that bicentennial monument, and Ms. Liberty can't be a teenage girl forever. However, the Ms. Liberty I've encountered is the one who made poorly planned incursions into Rogue Isles, resulting in her defeat. It is the same girl who's caused unnecessary friction between Longbow and Vanguard by trying to take over Vanguard's job.

Ms. Liberty can be stuck as a teenager  immature young adult(but my point still stands) because that's the only part of her life we see. I'll leave the unseen parts as they are: unknown. I don't assume she would lead other incursions into the Isles, outgrow her immature tendency, or make it to her 40s. Maybe she would. Perhaps she wouldn't.

If people can freely fill in the blanks and believe their way is still OK, then leaving the lore intact (no more, no less) should be good, too.

Edited 17 hours ago by huang3721

[El D]

11 hours ago, huang3721 said:

 

Yes, there's that bicentennial monument, and Ms. Liberty can't be a teenage girl forever. However, the Ms. Liberty I've encountered is the one who made poorly planned incursions into Rogue Isles, resulting in her defeat. It is the same girl who's caused unnecessary friction between Longbow and Vanguard by trying to take over Vanguard's job.

Ms. Liberty can be stuck as a teenager because that's the only part of her life we see. I'll leave the unseen parts as they are: unknown. I don't assume she would lead other incursions into the Isles, outgrow her immature tendency, or make it to her 40s. Maybe she would. Perhaps she wouldn't.

If people can freely fill in the blanks and believe their way is still OK, then leaving the lore intact (no more, no less) should be good, too.

 

So this says teenager? The adult woman depicted the exact same way as all the other adult women from the Vindicators, Carnies, and Arachnos? From all the way back in 2007?

 

 

Sure, we can attempt to handwave 'that's actually Dominatrix!' - except she's still the exact same age as Ms. Liberty. Which would raise even more questions regarding the background the original devs wrote before Praetoria revamp. 'What should we do with the evil alternate counterpart to our idealistic teenage girl? Name her Dominatrix, give her a gimp army, and heavily imply she's involved with her own grandfather!' Personally I'd prefer to think that wasn't written for a teenage girl, much less one who would be an eternal teenager due to comic book time, but hey, interpretation. We can even run with the comics being non-canon, but the art still had to be officially approved. I sincerely doubt 'draw the teenage girl to look like every other adult woman there and have her pose provocatively on the bar counter to be stared at by her dimensional counterpart's explicitly adult co. workers' was the specific direction they picked, irrespective of David Nakayama's penchant for pin ups. Also yes, the Vindicators are all adults. Mynx was considered the youngest one and she was born in 1982.

 

Of course, everyone's free to interpret characters however they like. My interpretation just happens to align with objective facts about the game's timeline, canon, character depictions, and the general idea that comic book logic be damned, they wouldn't put a highschool student in-charge of a NATO-backed paramilitary organization (no matter how poorly written some of the arcs or content involving said NATO-backed paramilitary organization may be).

[catsi563]

On 3/7/2025 at 5:08 AM, Forager said:

Can you give an example of a group like what you describe? An untarnished faction? It could be from anywhere, fact or fiction.

 

The Jedi

 

Lucas intended them from the start to be very white hats. the good guys the guardians of peace and justice of the old republic

 

then the prequels came and we got this ridiculous and inane gray tarring of the noble order, with even stupider tropes such as the jedi kidnapping children or oppressing other force religions  and being warmongers etc etc so on

 

the Jedi were never meant to be perfect but it was made clear in the novel of Revenge of the Sith that their being good people was what was used against them most effectively. they were meant to be peacekeepers and to save lives. So they could not just sit idly by when the war raged on and innocent lives were being threatened but they also were not soldiers and so had to go into a meatgrinder to protect the clones who were assigned to them until the clones tuned on them

 

the Jedi were heroes like fairy tale knights of old Paladins of good helping people its only the recent surge in modernism that has seen them tarnished and turned into the ridiculous pastiches theyve been turned into

Edited yesterday at 04:26 PM by catsi563

[Stormwalker]

Honestly, I have never had a particularly high opinion of Longbow.  More than that, Longbow has seriously tarnished my view of Ms. Liberty.

 

In the RWZ arcs, we see a Longbow which is putting itself ahead of a legitimate military (Vanguard) charged by the world's governments with the task of protecting Earth from external threats such as the Rikti.  Longbow has no authority and no jurisdiction, and they are  not only meddling in Vanguard ops but conducting espionage against  Vanguard and witholding crucial intelligence from Vanguard.  That's not OK.  It could in fact be called treasonous.  And from Lt. Tendaji's dialogue in those missions, it looks like their orders to conduct these illegal activities come directly from Ms. Liberty.  It gives me the distinct impression that Ms. Liberty is a loose cannon who either has no idea what she is doing (which is bad) or puts herself above legal authority granted by governments (which is worse).

 

And then, in Praetorian content, we see them doing it again, and even some of their own agents questioning their orders.

 

Aside from that, Longbow actions in redside story arcs and described by certain redside exploration badges strongly suggest that Longbow in the Rogue Isles regularly ignores it own regulations and engages in unethical experimentation and other decidedly unheroic actions like large-scale mind control.

 

Honestly, sometimes Longbow acts more like a villain faction than a hero faction.

Edited 22 hours ago by Stormwalker

[Octogoat]

I don't think ms.liberty was a teenager at launch. Also I think it's actually a good thing that she and longbow are flawed. No one likes a Mary-sue. And nepotism appointments as well as family expectations do happen.

[BasiliskXVIII]

22 minutes ago, Octogoat said:

I don't think ms.liberty was a teenager at launch. Also I think it's actually a good thing that she and longbow are flawed. No one likes a Mary-sue. And nepotism appointments as well as family expectations do happen.

 

Aspiring to be good, working to try to better yourself, and maintaining a moral code is not a Mary-Sue.

[huang3721]

9 hours ago, El D said:

Of course, everyone's free to interpret characters however they like.

 

On 3/8/2025 at 4:37 AM, Snarky said:

Longbow are accurate, in my opinion.  NO "good" groups in the real world have EVER stayed 100% moral.

 

On 3/8/2025 at 5:45 AM, El D said:

...

but the catch that they absolutely can't be paragons of morality because 'those doesn't exist in the real world' is an odd restraint to keep in a game

 

a few moments later

On 3/8/2025 at 9:14 AM, El D said:

In-retrospect your assessment was more nuanced than I realized and my prior post was overly dismissive, so for that I apologize.

 

 

 

On 3/9/2025 at 5:50 AM, keyguardactive said:

They are run by a superpowered teenage girl, so they are by their nature idealistic, short sighted, and reactionary. 

 

On 3/9/2025 at 7:26 AM, El D said:

Ms. Liberty can't be a teenage girl via the game's original lifespan alone.

 

 

On 3/9/2025 at 7:02 PM, huang3721 said:

It is possible most if not all story arcs about Ms. Liberty commanding Longbow was happening between Issue 5 and 10. ... It *could* be even shorter *if* CoH is using comic book time.

 

 

On 3/9/2025 at 11:05 PM, El D said:

CoH doesn't use comic book time.

[biostem]

6 hours ago, BasiliskXVIII said:

Aspiring to be good, working to try to better yourself, and maintaining a moral code is not a Mary-Sue.

No, but having no flaws is one tell-tale sign that you may be dealing with one, but that's fine, because the person you responded to very clearly pointed out that they were NOT saying Ms. Liberty or Longbow were Mary Sues.  Further, having a "moral code" doesn't make one good, either - it's just a set of rules of conduct - but those could include things like "kill anyone who doesn't think as I do"...

[El D]

32 minutes ago, huang3721 said:

<a lot of assorted quotes>

 

I think you might've missed something there! Your collage of quotes seems to have accidentally skipped over every single bit of factual evidence I cited in my prior post about Ms. Liberty's depiction, her age, the comparative age of her allies in the Vindicators, and the set timeline of the game. Surely that's just a coincidence.

 

Now, to get things back on topic...

 

47 minutes ago, biostem said:

No, but having no flaws is one tell-tale sign that you may be dealing with one, but that's fine, because the person you responded to very clearly pointed out that they were NOT saying Ms. Liberty or Longbow were Mary Sues.  Further, having a "moral code" doesn't make one good, either - it's just a set of rules of conduct - but those could include things like "kill anyone who doesn't think as I do"...

 

This comment made me think that an examination of their moral code and how it has changed could be a fun avenue to take Longbow in. Libby too, given that a lot of her prior writing - at least background-wise - was a stated desire to get out from under Statesman's shadow. Longbow seeing all the distrust and skepticism could be a solid motivation to improve their standards, and Ms. Liberty has had no greater avenue to build her own legacy than examining how her prior decisions were shaped by following States' example. The whole thing with Red Widow and wanting to redeem Recluse would also be Libby succeeding where grandpa Marcus never had, and plays really strongly into her work with the Vindicators given that redemptive justice was her whole motivation for founding that supergroup. Heck, at that point Libby having to contend Longbow's more extreme elements with her desire to see the best in others and give them a second chance is an arc that practically writes itself. Maybe even with Praetor Duncan trying to poach some of them (wanting to spite her counterpart still) but only getting a handful of the really disillusioned on her side. Longbow rising above moral gray influence of war, Praetoria, and their own checkered past to be a better version of themselves and help better others in the process via the example of their founder seems like a fitting Hero Morality mission-style approach.

[Snarky]

4 hours ago, El D said:

 

I think you might've missed something there! Your collage of quotes seems to have accidentally skipped over every single bit of factual evidence I cited in my prior post about Ms. Liberty's depiction, her age, the comparative age of her allies in the Vindicators, and the set timeline of the game. Surely that's just a coincidence.

 

Now, to get things back on topic...

 

 

This comment made me think that an examination of their moral code and how it has changed could be a fun avenue to take Longbow in. Libby too, given that a lot of her prior writing - at least background-wise - was a stated desire to get out from under Statesman's shadow. Longbow seeing all the distrust and skepticism could be a solid motivation to improve their standards, and Ms. Liberty has had no greater avenue to build her own legacy than examining how her prior decisions were shaped by following States' example. The whole thing with Red Widow and wanting to redeem Recluse would also be Libby succeeding where grandpa Marcus never had, and plays really strongly into her work with the Vindicators given that redemptive justice was her whole motivation for founding that supergroup. Heck, at that point Libby having to contend Longbow's more extreme elements with her desire to see the best in others and give them a second chance is an arc that practically writes itself. Maybe even with Praetor Duncan trying to poach some of them (wanting to spite her counterpart still) but only getting a handful of the really disillusioned on her side. Longbow rising above moral gray influence of war, Praetoria, and their own checkered past to be a better version of themselves and help better others in the process via the example of their founder seems like a fitting Hero Morality mission-style approach.

The “timeline” of the game is about a year.  Period.  Yes, things have been added.   Yes, you can use Ouro to “edit”.  But, from one characters perspective, if you really do the content, the timeline is not “our” timeline.  It is a “fixed in amber” “world in a snow globe” strange snippet of time.  Based on the cars and comps and such…. From a mystical alternate timeline about 25 years ago.  But just one year or so.  

[Andreah]

4 hours ago, Snarky said:

The “timeline” of the game is about a year.  Period.  Yes, things have been added.   Yes, you can use Ouro to “edit”.  But, from one characters perspective, if you really do the content, the timeline is not “our” timeline.  It is a “fixed in amber” “world in a snow globe” strange snippet of time.  Based on the cars and comps and such…. From a mystical alternate timeline about 25 years ago.  But just one year or so.  

I tend to agree. Even though in player-RP we tend to advance the calendar, the design of the game doesn't really accommodate time moving on. There were a few attempts, but they don't really change much.

[Andreah]

Re Ms. Liberty, I highly doubt she was ever a teenager in the game's "Present Day", just based on her mother's demographic cohort.

[El D]

5 hours ago, Snarky said:

The “timeline” of the game is about a year.  Period.  Yes, things have been added.   Yes, you can use Ouro to “edit”.  But, from one characters perspective, if you really do the content, the timeline is not “our” timeline.  It is a “fixed in amber” “world in a snow globe” strange snippet of time.  Based on the cars and comps and such…. From a mystical alternate timeline about 25 years ago.  But just one year or so.  

 

8 minutes ago, Andreah said:

I tend to agree. Even though in player-RP we tend to advance the calendar, the design of the game doesn't really accommodate time moving on. There were a few attempts, but they don't really change much.

 

The game literally has events that mark the passage of each year in concert with real time. Graphical restraints =/= 'Timeline never advances' though if we are going to use that as a marker, there's also the fact that every character can use a modern smartphone. Would be real odd to have one of these back in 2004, wouldn't it?

 

 

Also, to tap the Bicentennial Badge again, with the explicit references in bold for emphasis

 

Quote

Monument 1: 200 Years of Paragon

 

In 1823, during the 'Era of Good Feelings' that followed the War of 1812, the town of Smithport united with neighboring villages to create a large and bustling port city. The first mayor of the city, George Maylor, named the region after his desire to build a city to represent the pinnacle of virtue, justice, freedom, and prosperity within the United States: Paragon City. The city that would one day become known as the birthplace of the modern hero. As guardian and champion of the people, the Hero remains the truest symbol of those noble, defiant ideals; the exalted spirit of Paragon made manifest.

 

This plaque was placed in 2023, alongside a number of others, to celebrate the 200th anniversary of the birth of the city. These streets have changed in many ways since that first union, and the people have been through many trials, but those ideals remain true within us, and we remain victorious.

 

Quote

Monument 13: The Outbreak

 

April 28, 2004: This date marks the beginning of what has since been referred to as 'The Outbreak Incident'. On this day, the neighborhood of Rivera Heights was placed into immediate and sudden quarantine, following the distribution of an illicit drug containing a powerful mutagen believed to be of Rikti origin. While at first seemingly harmless, the drug caused significant increases in strength amongst those who imbibed it, as well as blind aggression and a lack of regard for one's own life. Identifiable by a powerful green glow in the eyes, individuals ingesting the drug turned Rivera Heights into an outright warzone, requiring Paragon City to call in a multitude of heroes to help round up the villains. The day marked the largest organized effort by heroes since the Rikti invasion two years prior.

 

Due to the sheer numbers of infected, Rivera Heights remained in total quarantine past the efforts to suppress the riots, when it was discovered that the effects of the drug were viral in nature and had mutated to become highly transmissible via skin-to-skin contact or bodily fluids. Only a small number of occupants had been allowed to leave, after rigorous testing determined they were clean of the virus. This quarantine lasted for a number of years as cures and vaccines were researched by Vanguard scientists, with the Hazard Doors to Rivera Heights only being opened again to limited civilian entry in 2013. Tragically, most of those infected in the first incident of the Outbreak did not live to see the day.

 

Quote

Monument 14: The Ferry

 

For citizens living and working on the Peregrine Island, the Melody, also known as the Paragon City Ferry, is a lifeline. Since first starting its route between Peregrine and Talos Island in 1983, the Melody has maintained a spotless record even until now on its 40th anniversary. Through the darkest times of Paragon City's history, this vessel has maintained its course without failure. First commanded by Captain Alfred Walker, the Melody's leadership was passed down to Captain Erika Janssen in 1988, who has been at the helm ever since.

 

"This ship's the one true queen of Paragon City's waters. I couldn't be prouder to have been by her side all these years. It is a privilege and an honor," said Captain Janssen. Looking towards retirement after her long tenure, the Captain is now seeking out her future successor for her position.

 

"The Melody will go on, however turbulent the tide."

 

Quote

Monument 19: Galaxy City

 

Formerly known as Paragon Heights, Galaxy City was renamed after Kelly Graham, aka Galaxy Girl, as a tribute to her immense impact on Paragon City over her years as a hero.

 

Galaxy City was once a place of beauty, featuring a wide array of statues paying tribute to some of the greatest heroes that Paragon has ever had to offer. It was a relatively small, but deeply beloved part of the city by visitors, as well as those who lived there - cozy and remarkably quiet for being so close to the city's center and Atlas Park. It was notably home to iconic hero Back Alley Brawler, who could be seen patrolling the streets on a daily basis, working diligently to keep Galaxy City as safe as could be.

 

On September 13, 2011, Galaxy City was destroyed. Meteorites poured from the sky, devastating almost every part of the city zone. Strange, terrifying creatures emerged from these meteorites, now known as 'Neo-Shivans'. Their origins remain unknown, as does their purpose. From the focused nature of the impacts, experts assume that there was a deliberate reason for targeting Galaxy City. The area remains in ruins to this day, with the city gates being shut for over a decade after evacuation.

 

Still, who knows? Maybe the constant in-universe references of decades passing, the set, specific dates for content added during Live that matches the release dates, and the repeated emphasis that the modern day Paragon City is in the 2020s is all just a Nemesis plot. Has anyone checked the plaques for steam vents? Maybe call Ms. Liberty and have Longbow investigate them (but not the ones from the Rogue Isles, they'd just shoot everything).

[Andreah]

Yes, it has a history. And there were attempts, which I admitted. But for the vast majority of the game content, it's a static world. 

[Doc_Scorpion]

4 hours ago, Andreah said:

I tend to agree. Even though in player-RP we tend to advance the calendar, the design of the game doesn't really accommodate time moving on. There were a few attempts, but they don't really change much.

That's mostly down to the fundamental weirdness that emerges when you make a MMO that tells a story/plays like a video game...  You end up with a situation where time passes for the player (character) but time doesn't (and can't) pass in the setting.

Both Dev teams (OG and HC) have repeatedly tried to square that circle, but essentially it's impossible to do so more than cosmetically.

[Skyhawke]

Penelope Yinn goes from young teenager to young woman within what, 30ish levels of the game? If I remember correctly, it's hinted by the time we hit Faultline that our character has been active at least a year or so. Time does move forward, it's just that the original devs, as is custom in comic books in general, were terrible at keeping a coherent timeline.