Please make MM upgrade powers passive

[Jacke]

On 3/23/2025 at 1:04 PM, Jacke said:

So it comes down to:

• How hard it would be to implement, do so thoroughly, and be tested to be sure it's working right.
• Does it deserve to take up dev and tester time to do this.  As opposed to other projects pending.

Only the devs can answer them.  It seems to be a good idea.  Especially as Henchmen need a lot of replacing.  But I don't know enough of the fiddly bits underneath to be sure.

 

On 3/23/2025 at 5:19 PM, Rudra said:

No, that isn't what it comes down to. Yes, those are questions that need to be answered for the suggestion, but they aren't the only ones. It also comes down to how does it change how the AT interacts with the game.

 

How changing Henchmen Upgrades affect how Masterminds would interact with the game?  I agree with what @gameboy1234 said, current Upgrades as click Powers is just busy work.  There is no drawback to applying Upgrades except for the need for the Player to click the Powers.

 

2 hours ago, gameboy1234 said:

I'm still sticking with this: "the current implementation just makes the upgrades into busy work without any interesting or fun game play value."

 

There's no real argument against making the upgrades passive powers, other than developer time (which I can totally see).  A passive isn't that much different than a what we have now, just two less buttons to mash.  I'd love for some functionality to replace it, but I don't see what that would be atm.

 

As I showed above, the way the current click-Power Upgrades work could be translated into passive-Power Upgrades.  It's possible.  All that matters is how much Dev and Tester time the change would take to be approved and tested to make sure the change was done correctly and Masterminds perform much as they are now.  But without the Upgrade busy work.

 

@gameboy1234 continued to point out how Masterminds struggle in the game due to depending so much on their Henchmen.

 

2 hours ago, gameboy1234 said:

Once you get to fast moving or tricky incarnate content, MMs can fall apart pretty quickly.  Pet pathing is awful, your "powers" can get stuck behind random objects, and they can inadvertently aggro things or mess up the mission by using the wrong power.  Frankly a lot of times I just don't summon the pets, and I'll roll with my secondary.  In some content they're fine, I'll smash through an ITF with my bots just fine.  But other content is really designed around a single player, not a single player towing a bunch of pets.

 

I'd like some way to lock my pets in a phalanx behind me so they just automatically travel wherever I go, but that probably wouldn't actually cut it for most people, so I'm still at a loss for what would actually help with higher level content.

 

As I've pointed out elsewhere, like the vast majority of Pets, Henchmen get NO benefit from the Global Buffs of the Mastermind, like +ToHit, +Acc, +Dam, and +Level.  Even when the Mastermind has an Alpha Boost and Incarnate Powers aren't disabled, to Pets a +4 mission is +4 content.  I have 2 rules I used to avoid needing to calculate every time:

• Slot Pet Summons Powers with ED-capped Acc enhancement.
• If critical Pet Powers have less than 1.2 base Accuracy, also needs Tactics or -Def debuff on the target
  • Tactics is better because it will always apply, but needs a Pool Pick and 2 Power Picks.
  • -Def debuff may not be on the target the Pet is attacking.

Following these rules will at least get Pet Powers to or close to a final 95% chance to hit +4 targets.

 

 

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Jacke said:

 

How changing Henchmen Upgrades affect how Masterminds would interact with the game?  I agree with what @gameboy1234 said, current Upgrades as click Powers is just busy work.  There is no drawback to applying Upgrades except for the need for the Player to click the Powers.

You are both right and wrong. Making the upgrades passive or automatic means that the mastermind can focus on attacking or summoning. Because any defeated henchmen can be replaced with already fully upgraded pets, then the concern shifts from keeping your upgraded pets alive to improving how often you can summon those same pets in any given period of time. Right now, if I am playing any of my MMs and I come across a difficult foe or group, my focus is on debuffing those enemies to keep them from hitting the pets, spamming heals to recover the pets from the hits, and/or buffing the pets to reduce the frequency at which they are taking hits. Because I know that if I lose any of my pets, their replacements will lack the powers the upgraded pets have. The imperative is keeping the pets alive. If I instead come across a foe or group that rapidly drops my pets, my focus shifts from trying to keep the pets alive because they aren't going to last regardless of what I do, to simply keeping pets on the field re-summoning as quickly as I can. The pets don't get upgrades until there is a sufficient pause or the fight starts winding down. And when the pressure lets up, I can again focus on protecting the pets so they can protect me.

 

Now we give the pets automatic upgrades. Now it doesn't matter if the pets die because any and all replacements will already be at their max strength. So I no longer need to worry about debuffing enemies to protect the pets, healing the pets to keep them alive, or buffing them to keep them alive. All I need to do is make sure my recharge on the pet summon powers are as low as possible so that no matter what I come across, I can simply zerg them. That is how the AT interaction with the game changes. It takes a strategic AT and strips it of any need for strategy at all. Just unleash a never ending deluge of maxed out pets with no other considerations. Who cares if my fully upgraded pets are dying? They already come fully upgraded when I summon them anyway. Controllers and Dominators don't have to worry about upgrading their pets to be at max effectiveness, but they also have 4 minutes recharges for them. Right now, with no attempt to focus on recharge, my Ninja/Dark MM can summon the T1s every 5 seconds. (I turned the timers on my character, summoned the T1s, and watched the power icon for the recharge time.) And if I didn't need to devote so much effort in the build to making my pets as survivable as possible, including the enhancements devoted to my secondary powers to keep them alive? I can most definitely get that time down even further. I can even take enhancement slots from powers that don't benefit my team of players when I team (edit: like Petrifying Gaze which is always rendered moot by the team as soon as I use it) and re-assign those to improving how often I can summon my henchmen. That is how the proposal changes how the AT interacts with the game. By changing where the AT's focus lies.

 

(Edit again: Especially since now I can drop the 6 pet procs and re-assign them to other enhancements to further improve pet recharge times since keeping the pets alive is no longer a concern because I can just keep replacing them with fully upgraded pets as fast as I can activate those powers.)

 

1 hour ago, Jacke said:

As I showed above, the way the current click-Power Upgrades work could be translated into passive-Power Upgrades.  It's possible.  All that matters is how much Dev and Tester time the change would take to be approved and tested to make sure the change was done correctly and Masterminds perform much as they are now.  But without the Upgrade busy work.

I'm not saying it isn't possible. I know full well it is possible simply by virtue of the fact that when we change maps, all of our not upgraded pets spawn as fully upgraded as long as a single pet is fully upgraded. That is not the crux of my argument.

 

1 hour ago, Jacke said:

@gameboy1234 continued to point out how Masterminds struggle in the game due to depending so much on their Henchmen.

MMs only struggle in high difficulty settings. Things like +4/x8 settings and 3/4-star Advanced Mode content. Addressing those problems is not something that the OP will actually do anything about.

 

1 hour ago, Jacke said:

 

As I've pointed out elsewhere, like the vast majority of Pets, Henchmen get NO benefit from the Global Buffs of the Mastermind, like +ToHit, +Acc, +Dam, and +Level. 

Again, you are both correct and incorrect. The part where you are incorrect is the +levels. In case I was wrong, I just popped in the game on my main, standing in St. Martial, and summoned my T1s. When I checked them, they were getting my MM's Alpha level shift just like they were supposed to. They weren't getting the two incarnate level shifts, but neither was I because the character was not in an incarnate zone or mission map.

 

1 hour ago, Jacke said:

Even when the Mastermind has an Alpha Boost and Incarnate Powers aren't disabled, to Pets a +4 mission is +4 content. 

Again, yes and no. When not in an incarnate zone or mission map, the MM's pets get their normal level shifts. However, they also get the MM's level shift from the Alpha. In an incarnate zone or mission map, you can throw it all out the window. Because now all the MM's pets are the exact same level as the MM, but only if they are in Supremacy range. So those T1s with the -2 level shifts? They still get their -2 level shifts, but they also get the combat level shift of the Alpha, the two incarnate level shifts of the Lore and Destiny, and they get an extra +2 levels for being in an incarnate zone or mission map. So your level 50+3 MM has three level 48+5 T1s, two level 49+4 T2s, and a level 50+3 T3.

 

1 hour ago, Jacke said:

Following these rules will at least get Pet Powers to or close to a final 95% chance to hit +4 targets.

Looking at Mids this time because I can't quickly look anywhere else right now, my main's Genin have a 94.77% accuracy against +4 (to me) mobs, my Jounin have a 127% accuracy against +4 (to me) mobs, and my Oni has a 118.8% accuracy against +4 (to me) mobs. How that translates to them in the game though? I don't know.

 

Edited yesterday at 09:59 PM by Rudra
Edited to remove confusing "my or". And again to correct "his" to "is".

[battlewraith]

5 hours ago, Rudra said:

So I no longer need to worry about debuffing enemies to protect the pets, healing the pets to keep them alive, or buffing them to keep them alive. All I need to do is make sure my recharge on the pet summon powers are as low as possible so that no matter what I come across, I can simply zerg them. That is how the AT interaction with the game changes. It takes a strategic AT and strips it of any need for strategy at all. Just unleash a never ending deluge of maxed out pets with no other considerations. Who cares if my fully upgraded pets are dying?

 

This doesn't make any sense. You're describing two different scenarios.

 

In the first, you have a build (and presumably a "strategic" playstyle) where you try to keep the pets alive. This is the world that current MM players live in. One that involves a lot of repetitive upgrading because the pets die if you are doing content that actually poses a challenge. They die while you are actively trying to keep them alive and they have been upgraded.

 

In the second scenario, you build for recharge and end reduction and just zerg the enemies. Mmmm okayy.. but if you gimped your build to prioritize recharge and end reduction (and took less pains to keep them alive with the secondary)--there's no reason to expect better success than in scenario #1. It just sounds like an ongoing cascading failure unless your strategy is to constantly run away, respawn the pets and then come back. If that's what floats your boat, but it's not an improvement over the first scenario. 

5 hours ago, Rudra said:

MMs only struggle in high difficulty settings. Things like +4/x8 settings and 3/4-star Advanced Mode content. Addressing those problems is not something that the OP will actually do anything about.

 

A Kitted out MM with incarnates should be able handle something like +4/+8. And I think you're right that the OP won't make these struggles easier because the suggestion is about quality of life, not about making them stronger. And if you're saying that this change and the zerging you imagine won't help in higher difficulty--than that's kind of an admission that that objection is baseless.

 

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

A Kitted out MM with incarnates should be able handle something like +4/+8.

Except some builds already do this, but in general, +4/x8 should require 8 people.  After all, that's what the whole "x8" part of that descriptor represents...

[biostem]

7 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

This doesn't make any sense. You're describing two different scenarios.

Sure it does;  One method actually requires you utilize your secondary;  "As intended", so to speak.  The second approach essentially ignores your secondary, and with the pet powers having been buffed to only having a recharge time of a few seconds, this is imminently attainable without significant sacrifice, especially since, IIRC, various pet IO sets already include recharge...

Edited 19 hours ago by biostem

[Rudra]

23 minutes ago, biostem said:

Sure it does;  One method actually requires you utilize your secondary;  "As intended", so to speak.  The second approach essentially ignores your secondary, and with the pet powers having been buffed to only having a recharge time of a few seconds, this is imminently attainable without significant sacrifice, especially since, IIRC, various pet IO sets already include recharge...

3+1 sets. 1 set from the pet sets (the purple), both sets from the recharge intensive sets, and one of the MM sets. (I say 3+1 rather than 4 because three of the sets are available to everyone, while the last one is MM only.)

 

Edited 19 hours ago by Rudra
Edited to correct count to 1 MM set.

[battlewraith]

8 hours ago, biostem said:

Except some builds already do this, but in general, +4/x8 should require 8 people.  After all, that's what the whole "x8" part of that descriptor represents...

 

LOL, no. There's a reason you invest billions of inf in special IOs and grind out incarnate powers. And it's not to be mediocre in comparison to other people's performance.

 

8 hours ago, biostem said:

Sure it does;  One method actually requires you utilize your secondary;  "As intended", so to speak.  The second approach essentially ignores your secondary, and with the pet powers having been buffed to only having a recharge time of a few seconds, this is imminently attainable without significant sacrifice, especially since, IIRC, various pet IO sets already include recharge...

 

You completely glossed over the point of that post. The secondary approach you're talking about is completely hypothetical. It assumes that those upgraded pets, if summoned over and over, would be sufficient to zerg hard content. Nonsense. Those trash pets would get rolled over without having the backup of the secondaries. The closest anyone has come to supporting this notion was Rudra and his hilariously underwhelming "lazy day"-- walking an IOed build through 0-2/+3 content. And that only worked because after each fight, he'd stop and let the pets rest up. 

[tidge]

Anecdote: In the current game, the only open-world content I see Masterminds regularly having trouble zerging are Giant Monsters like nu-Eochai, Lusca (with Tentacles), and the Arachnos Flier (far less trouble IMO, but there are some subtleties with it relating to its shield, regeneration, and travel times). Every other GM (except for Rikti Dropship) is something I regularly see MM's fighting toe-to-toe.

 

The first two GMs are problematic because of AoEs... nuEochai's has an auto-hit patch, and Lusca with even just one tentacle can muster multiple AoEs to grief and MM+henchmen. This is not to say those GMs are unbeatable, rather they are in a category where many MMs don't bother with them because of the extra effort required. No-cost auto-upgrades of henches certainly would make life even easier against those two GMs... because now those MMs that can't/won't/don't zerg those GMs would zerg them. Right now my Lusca solo times (all 22 merits) are rate-limited by the 2-minutes between Destiny Barrier modulated by the resummoned henches not having their upgrades. Lusca would become very easy for me if the henches didn't have to be upgraded.

 

The next lower tier of annoying Giant Monsters is IMO nuJack-in-Irons and (a little bit) Kraken. nuJack because it can chain a bunch of AoE (including some controls) that "get lucky" and mess up an MM trying to zerg. Kraken has the Damage aura which isn't so much of a big deal, but with its AoEs it means that it (currently) it is smart not to resummon a hench too close to it. Most other GMs have some sort of AoE attack(s), but in practice I haven't observed them to be worried about (mostly because of ToHit checks).

 

There are adjacent points to be made about MM secondaries.... whatever team buffs are in those are the same types of buffs that other ATs have. That is: no "for free for the henches at all times". Any "Aura buffs" from a secondary will still have to wait for the timing of a complete summons before affecting a newly summoned henchmen. FWIW: I'd probably rank /Marine as the best of the MM secondaries because of every tool it brings to a fight, plus a "patch", and then either /Time or /Traps. Traps is very busy (but powerful) while Time should be slightly more laid-back.

[UltraAlt]

I seriously can't believe that this thread is still alive at this point.

 

Please stop. I have a friend that is somewhat forgetful and keeps bringing this thread up because they apparently think it is something new everytime they see it ... and then they rant on about how we had to walk to school through six feet of snow in our bare feet for 10 miles (obviously) in the freezing cold .... I'm paraphrasing their rant about how difficult it was to play masterminds back when they were originally released ... it really comes down to that ... and it is virtually the same rant every time.

 

Have pity on me. 

[Col. Kernel]

5 hours ago, tidge said:

Anecdote: In the current game, the only open-world content I see Masterminds regularly having trouble zerging are Giant Monsters like nu-Eochai, Lusca (with Tentacles), and the Arachnos Flier (far less trouble IMO, but there are some subtleties with it relating to its shield, regeneration, and travel times). Every other GM (except for Rikti Dropship) is something I regularly see MM's fighting toe-to-toe.

 

The first two GMs are problematic because of AoEs... nuEochai's has an auto-hit patch, and Lusca with even just one tentacle can muster multiple AoEs to grief and MM+henchmen. This is not to say those GMs are unbeatable, rather they are in a category where many MMs don't bother with them because of the extra effort required. No-cost auto-upgrades of henches certainly would make life even easier against those two GMs... because now those MMs that can't/won't/don't zerg those GMs would zerg them. Right now my Lusca solo times (all 22 merits) are rate-limited by the 2-minutes between Destiny Barrier modulated by the resummoned henches not having their upgrades. Lusca would become very easy for me if the henches didn't have to be upgraded.

 

The next lower tier of annoying Giant Monsters is IMO nuJack-in-Irons and (a little bit) Kraken. nuJack because it can chain a bunch of AoE (including some controls) that "get lucky" and mess up an MM trying to zerg. Kraken has the Damage aura which isn't so much of a big deal, but with its AoEs it means that it (currently) it is smart not to resummon a hench too close to it. Most other GMs have some sort of AoE attack(s), but in practice I haven't observed them to be worried about (mostly because of ToHit checks).

 

There are adjacent points to be made about MM secondaries.... whatever team buffs are in those are the same types of buffs that other ATs have. That is: no "for free for the henches at all times". Any "Aura buffs" from a secondary will still have to wait for the timing of a complete summons before affecting a newly summoned henchmen. FWIW: I'd probably rank /Marine as the best of the MM secondaries because of every tool it brings to a fight, plus a "patch", and then either /Time or /Traps. Traps is very busy (but powerful) while Time should be slightly more laid-back.

Can you solo a Pylon on your MM?

[tidge]

3 minutes ago, Col. Kernel said:

Can you solo a Pylon on your MM?

 

I have never tried!

 

A more complete answer is: I've never tried soloing a pylon with *any* of my characters. I understand why folks do this, but as a "task" it holds no appeal to me.

[DrRocket]

On 3/12/2025 at 11:24 PM, Rudra said:

Sure. I do that with my Corruptors routinely every time I team with my friends. That said, why the hostility?

 

Edit: Sorry, you said every 3rd fight. No, I tend to do that much more frequently than every 3rd fight.

 

Edit again: Besides, per the other threads requesting this, the devs have already stated they won't be making MM pet upgrades passive or automatic.

 

 

Way to put an end to a dream, ha ha ha ha

[Fira]

I haven't tried since 54 Pylons, but with level-less pylons of before, it was actually quite easy to solo ALL the pylons to do the raid alone on a MM, by virtue of them having the "insp the pets" feature that you can damage-insp Lores, Temp EBs, and Sig Summon.

 

Also, this isn't the case anymore, but there was a very real usecase before Bots rework to NOT upgrade them to avoid them having Flamethrower and Full Auto with ridiculously high activation times if you use them to pull, because they'll be sitting ducks for a long while. Of course this isn't relevant anymore since rework, but i suspect there are other such usecases.

 

Edit: Another usecase I've ran into is to not grant missiles to Assault Bot at lower levels, like 27-32, where you'd have them just due to the exemp bonus. Because it can just be too impactful when you're exemp'ing with lower level people. But then you can just not summon it i guess..

Edited 3 hours ago by Fira