General archtype/power balance

[Falcon Striker]

I just want to start an open discussion about the game balance, and end game viability and things like scope creep.  It's something my friends and I are starting to notice trying the archetypes out playing a lot recently after not playing for a long time

 

I'd like to first bring up what brought up this discussion, Brutes.  I guess they got nerfed a lot, and SURE you could maybe argue they can fill a dps slot and be some what viable with procs.  But then I'd argue scope creep.  Why pick a brute over a tanker or a scrapper or even a stalker?  They just seem inferior and their rage meter doesn't help them much at all.

 

I've also had some people tell me Sentinels are weak, it's why they get unique defensive abilities like enduring in SR. 

 

It also has me thinking about power sets.  Again, you can make arguments about viability but it's hard to just ignore scope creep unless you're willing to ignore it for the sake of theming your character.  That being said, not all power sets are created equal, and a lot of these issues seem to have been going on for years.

 

It kind of feels bad feeling this all creep up, loving the game for the freedom in builds it offers, to slowly come to the realization that some options are just, really bad or subpar, and wondering what choices are traps you'll waste your time leveling? 

 

You tell yourself "Well maybe when I get to level 20 it won't suck."  Then you tell yourself it gets better at 30, then 40, and you realize you wasted your time and have to go back to the drawing board.

 

Not even trying to find a super meta build, just be at least viable, do what the class/power says it does as advertised.  I should pick a brute for example (I know I'm harping on brutes a lot), and not have it feel flimsier than a scrapper while also doing less damage, and I can't even hold aggro.  But when I play a scrapper or a tank I feel powerful.

 

If someone asked me, "what's the worst class in the game?" It shouldn't be an easy answer, but it is (the answer is brute btw and a lot of people would agree I suspect).

 

EDIT:

INB4 skill issue comments or pointing out my lack of evidence.  "I can play brutes good".  Cool, good for you, I'd still argue scope creep. 

Edited Monday at 08:01 AM by Falcon Striker

[Snarky]

Brutes are NOT flimsier than Scrappers.  But Brutes are not in a very good place right now.  Tankers keep getting buffed, and that is the go-to armored AT.  

 

Sentinels got a nice rework.  They are decent.  They were in a horrid spot.  they are now.... There are meh.  Especially after 50.  

 

These are my opinions.  I have Tanked Recluse in MoMLTF twice successfully on a Dark Dark Brute.  But that does not make it in a good place.  That just means I did to the Brute what NASCAR does to a chevy.  And people have played that build (at least one person) and swore they died all the time.  I never think I am that good a player.  Maybe they were that bad?  I have run tons of Sentinels.  DPS with a gimmick.  and meh DPS.  

 

I am currently fixated on Corruptors.  But I do not like to heal or buff.   I like to Corrupt.  So I run Dark and Ice.  Dark has great heals but it is centered on me and applies a -regen.  debuff.  Corrupt.  Corruptors are the only "S" class AT in CoH.  Every Corruptor, regardless of powersets, is an "S" class pick for a team.  My opinion.  Depending on Powersets, AT, and opinions most non Corr toons are A to C.  Less kind players immediately assign Ds and Fs to certain powersets and/or ATs.  Is it fair?  Is it right?

 

Do not look to "balance" the game through change.  You will have a interesting fight.  

[Uun]

6 hours ago, Falcon Striker said:

I've also had some people tell me Sentinels are weak, it's why they get unique defensive abilities like enduring in SR. 

This may have been the case when sentinels were first released, but they've been in a pretty good place since the AT was revamped. That said, there's a wide range in performance between the best and worst performing sentinel primaries. This has to do with which powers were replaced (and with what) in each blast set when they were ported to sentinels. I would argue that the sentinel versions of Dark Blast and Electric Blast are better than the blaster/defender/corruptor versions. The changes to defense sets were required to eliminate PBAoE powers that targeted foes and/or required a target to work.

[arcane]

If you are using all of the various resources available to you, from inspirations to IO’s to Incarnates, you should never have a character that doesn’t even feel “viable”. 
 

Considering what you posted in the SR thread about enhancement slotting, I can confidently say that you are not using all of the various resources available to you yet.

Edited Monday at 02:28 PM by arcane

[Troo]

7 hours ago, Falcon Striker said:

just be at least viable

 

Just for my information.. could you point to an archetype or combination you feel is not viable? (you probably shouldn't answer that even though I am genuinely curious)

 

Viability is very subjective. 

• Some folks have taken characters to 50 with just Brawl.
• I have a character that capped Infamy several times over from zero as a level 1. Any combination or archetype would have been viable for this character.
• I don't like playing Dominators, Peacebringers, Masterminds, or Sentinels. They are still very viable.
• A petless Mastermind.. still viable.

Brutes - Sure, other achetypes have gotten more love. Brutes are villainsiders and very viable.

 

Theory crafting: Should Brutes be able to out damage a Scrapper or out survive a Tank? I'll leave that to others.

 

An excellent Brute will absolutely out play an average Tanker or Scrapper. 

On a level playing field.. just kidding there is no level playing field where someone could point and say definitively across the board Tanker > Brute > Scrapper or some other order.

Besides, everyone knows Stalkers are the best Melee class.

[Psyonico]

If you think that brutes are less survivable and have less aggro control than scrappers, you’re sorely mistaken.

 

Brutes get the same armor values as scrappers but have higher caps and higher HP, therefore they are at least as survivable as Scrappers.

 

 All brute armor sets have a taunt aura, that cannot be said for scrappers (scrapper damage auras don’t have a taunt aspect to them, but some sets, WP and Shield for example, do get a taunt aura).  Additionally, brutes get single target punch-voke and access to Taunt instead of Confront.  All of these things mean brutes have more aggro control than scrappers.

 

If you think that brutes are squishier than scrappers, it’s most likely because you catch more aggro on a brute.

[FFTMime]

6 hours ago, Snarky said:

Sentinels got a nice rework.  They are decent.  They were in a horrid spot.  they are now.... There are meh.  Especially after 50.  

I mean.. any ranged + armor AT is destined to mediocrity by function? The very idea of sentinels is as a safer AT to play all around. If they did something truly fantastic, you'd crunch an entire other AT. To people who are tired of randomly going splat playing ranged, survival is fantastic enough. Sometimes you want to feel more like Iron Man than Iron Sissy. 

It has a certain appeal to it, but playing them also made me finally just PLAY A BLASTER...

[mistagoat]

6 hours ago, Snarky said:

These are my opinions.  I have Tanked Recluse in MoMLTF twice successfully on a Dark Dark Brute.  But that does not make it in a good place.  That just means I did to the Brute what NASCAR does to a chevy.  And people have played that build (at least one person) and swore they died all the time.  I never think I am that good a player.  Maybe they were that bad?  I have run tons of Sentinels.  DPS with a gimmick.  and meh DPS.  

I built your Dark/Dark Brute a couple years back, it's a super tough brute that I really enjoy playing! I won't say I've never died on it but death is quite rare indeed. Great build!

 

 

On topic, I don't think I've run across anything that is straight up not viable, do you have any examples OP? Admittedly Brutes are not in a great place. IMHO they are viable but they aren't the best at anything so it can be difficult to select a Brute over the other Melee Classes. I'm not sure how to fix that.

[FFTMime]

I think part of the issue is having three melee AT's in the first place. If I'm going to be brutally honest about design choices of yesteryear. On that note, one spooky solution people may not like is picking one to center things around while the others are left as relics for those who are fond of them. Simplifies what to center game design around a lot. Similarly to how Willpower probably has always been the real Regeneration rework and why Regen never got a direct one. Particularly now that, uh, villain/hero AT's don't have exclusivity to red or blue sides. 

[Go0gleplex]

Keep in mind this is more or less logical conjecture: Originally the initial archtypes were set up to work in teams, each covering for a weakness(es) of the other ATs. Then CoV came and the ATs were set up to work decently as solo while not quite as effective in team play...being self-serving villains and all at heart. I leveled both a Tank (pre-nerf) and Brute to level 50 back then. I left prior to Going Rogue coming out...but Sentinels seem to be another AT meant to allow for a more solo-survivable play style.  As a solo gamer...Sentinels and Brutes are my go to with Blaster and Tank as a decent second choice for when I'm feeling like a bit more risk or simple change of pace. I've tried the other ATs and just not my cuppa for my play style...and that, at the end of the day, is really what matters since when the AT fits your play style it will seem stronger by comparison to others that don't....even when it may not be that way numerically/statistically.  As long as one is having fun with what they are playing, does the rest of the minutia matter? It could be that the folks complaining about a specific AT is more due to it not matching their play style rather than actually being broken or what. Though I'm sure the deep delver folks would slap me with a heresy warning for saying that. lol  😉 

[FFTMime]

Yeah, villains and heroes mixing has given us an excess of choices not meant to be together. You get weird choices like why be a brute when you can be a tank. Or why be a defender when you can corrupt? Why be a dominator when you can play an AT that actually works....

 

[Captain Fabulous]

11 minutes ago, FFTMime said:

Why be a dominator when you can play an AT that actually works....

You misspelled Mastermind. It's a common mistake.

[Uun]

49 minutes ago, FFTMime said:

I think part of the issue is having three four melee AT's in the first place.

Fixed it.

[Neiska]

Just my opinion but overall I think the ATs are pretty well balanced, it just depends on context. Builds that are great solo often aren’t the best option for hard modes or speedy teams. Difficulty also matters here as well. At 50/+0 anything can work, what changes is “how” and how long it takes. It’s when you go beyond that does differences is “power” get more complex. 
 

Personally I like how there is a kind of “extra” difficulty for us to enjoy. And if some ATs or powers cap out before that, that doesn’t mean things are unbalanced etc.

 

Overall- things are more balanced in CoH than some other games. There will always be a meta or kiss-your-elbow best setup for a particular situation, but nothing is 100% best at “everything” and I suspect that’s entirely by design.

[MTeague]

I don't believe it's actually possible to balance all combinations of powersets for all archtypes, and have them all perform the same by whatever metrics you choose to use.

I do believe it's possible to make them fun to play, and that is where the rubber meets the road for me.

 

Heresy #1:  I do not care about clear times. Not one bit. 

Heresy #2:  I do not care how fast or slow I finish a TF. It's not even on radar for me. 

 

I never invite people based on what powersets / archtype they bring. I invite people for fun. Bring the player, not the character.  It hasn't let me down yet.

[Maelwys]

I'd take an intelligently built and competently piloted Brute over a Scrapper or Tanker any day of the week. But then I'd also take an intelligently built and competently piloted Petless Mastermind over your average PUGer on a copy-pasta Ice/Cold Corruptor.

 

IMO build and Skill trumps AT every time. Even in hardmode where you sometimes can't win by just repeatedly rolling your face over the keyboard.

 

Edited Monday at 07:05 PM by Maelwys

[Healix]

I have never used Mids, and have managed to put together some pretty tough characters, even trollers who seldom die. I am not into stats and numbers, just fun, but have managed to learn what seems to work.

[Uncle Shags]

1 hour ago, FFTMime said:

Why be a dominator when you can play an AT that actually works....

I was going to make a long drawn out attempt to make a point about balance, but this right here does it for me.  When one player can have experiences that lead to this opinion, and the teammate next to them on the roster has come to the opposite conclusion of "Why play any other AT when I can play a Dom?", how can we make sweeping assumptions about balance?

 

The only way to "know" is to crunch numbers like a mad scientist, but even then most of the conclusions are iffy and hotly debated.

 

What I love about this game is you can go into a team mission with any build or AT and come out thinking your contributions to the team were key to success.  When I'm playing (subtly) on one of my maxed out toons on a team full of lowbies, to them it seems like they're the ones saving the day.  Even though I could solo the mission, on their screen and in their minds they are super. No matter what they're playing. I think that's great.

[Doc Spectre]

I find the feeling of scrapperlock is like a pale weak shadow of PERMA-Domination. Not much beats seeing Domination spammed across the screen for me. 
 

There may be something wrong with me.

[Falcon Striker]

11 hours ago, Snarky said:

Brutes are NOT flimsier than Scrappers.  But Brutes are not in a very good place right now.  Tankers keep getting buffed, and that is the go-to armored AT.  

 

Sentinels got a nice rework.  They are decent.  They were in a horrid spot.  they are now.... There are meh.  Especially after 50.  

 

These are my opinions.  I have Tanked Recluse in MoMLTF twice successfully on a Dark Dark Brute.  But that does not make it in a good place.  That just means I did to the Brute what NASCAR does to a chevy.  And people have played that build (at least one person) and swore they died all the time.  I never think I am that good a player.  Maybe they were that bad?  I have run tons of Sentinels.  DPS with a gimmick.  and meh DPS.  

 

I am currently fixated on Corruptors.  But I do not like to heal or buff.   I like to Corrupt.  So I run Dark and Ice.  Dark has great heals but it is centered on me and applies a -regen.  debuff.  Corrupt.  Corruptors are the only "S" class AT in CoH.  Every Corruptor, regardless of powersets, is an "S" class pick for a team.  My opinion.  Depending on Powersets, AT, and opinions most non Corr toons are A to C.  Less kind players immediately assign Ds and Fs to certain powersets and/or ATs.  Is it fair?  Is it right?

 

Do not look to "balance" the game through change.  You will have a interesting fight.  

 

I'm seeing a lot of mixed opinions after your post so it's going to influence my response a bit.  I guess sentinels bring mediocre dps to the table so it begs the question, does their inherent ability bring enough to the table?  It seems good to me but I haven't got one to 50 yet.  Seems we also both agree Brutes could use a bit of love.

 

I guess my friends have been dooming and glooming a lot lot about the balance.  Maybe his brute DOES get better after 20.  I myself played a DM/SR brute with super speed and I've been enjoying it so far, we both got to 13.  I believe his is super strength/invulnerability and he claims it feels worse than playing a scrapper at that level.  He claims he can't hold threat, he dies too easily.  I was healing him during this with empathy as a defender.  Just not sure what to say to him.  He said he tested things out solo too after we did Posi1 and his health would drop by half being hit by 1 yellow enemy.  Even my SR scrapper wouldn't get hit that hard.

 

But it seems regardless, at least some level of scope creep is real.

7 hours ago, Uun said:

This may have been the case when sentinels were first released, but they've been in a pretty good place since the AT was revamped. That said, there's a wide range in performance between the best and worst performing sentinel primaries. This has to do with which powers were replaced (and with what) in each blast set when they were ported to sentinels. I would argue that the sentinel versions of Dark Blast and Electric Blast are better than the blaster/defender/corruptor versions. The changes to defense sets were required to eliminate PBAoE powers that targeted foes and/or required a target to work.

Does their inherent ability make up for their lack of damage compared to other AT?

7 hours ago, arcane said:

If you are using all of the various resources available to you, from inspirations to IO’s to Incarnates, you should never have a character that doesn’t even feel “viable”. 
 

Considering what you posted in the SR thread about enhancement slotting, I can confidently say that you are not using all of the various resources available to you yet.

Fair enough man, but that kind of proves my point more, actually.  I can pick a scrapper, not do the golden ratio like I was supposed to, and still get to 50 smiling ear to ear and only seeking help to min max at the end game.  I took the advice btw, 3dmg/2acc/1end red works wonders, I'm slowly replacing them with attunement enhancements.

 

That being said, couldn't you take that knowledge so much further with better classes?  It kind of ignores what the thread is about, scope creep.

 

Like okay, sure, you could make a brute viable, I believe that now after reading the comments.  But.... why would I pick a brute over a tank?  Or a scrapper?  I feel like I'm knee capping my potential, and for what?  You could argue play style, I guess?  But so far I'm not seeing anyone even attempt to deny brutes could use a bit of reworking/buffs.  Among other classes that just fall behind performance wise. 

5 hours ago, Troo said:

 

Just for my information.. could you point to an archetype or combination you feel is not viable? (you probably shouldn't answer that even though I am genuinely curious)

 

Viability is very subjective. 

• Some folks have taken characters to 50 with just Brawl.
• I have a character that capped Infamy several times over from zero as a level 1. Any combination or archetype would have been viable for this character.
• I don't like playing Dominators, Peacebringers, Masterminds, or Sentinels. They are still very viable.
• A petless Mastermind.. still viable.

Brutes - Sure, other achetypes have gotten more love. Brutes are villainsiders and very viable.

 

Theory crafting: Should Brutes be able to out damage a Scrapper or out survive a Tank? I'll leave that to others.

 

An excellent Brute will absolutely out play an average Tanker or Scrapper. 

On a level playing field.. just kidding there is no level playing field where someone could point and say definitively across the board Tanker > Brute > Scrapper or some other order.

Besides, everyone knows Stalkers are the best Melee class.

I personally  used DM/SR and got to 13 like my friend and felt it was fine, I still feel tanks do their job better, and I don't think anyone will argue with me about that.  My friend was griping about his build, which I believe was super strength/invulnerability and he said it felt bad in every regard.  Holding threat, damage output, and especially just not dying.  He was testing it solo too.  I wasn't sure what to say to him.  But I did some digging in older threads, seems gripes about brutes are a common sentiment and they've got hit over the years with a lot of nerfs. 

 

Maybe I'm just naive but Tanker>Scrapper>Stalker> then waaaaaay down the list would be Brute, but I guess I have to put them in 4th if we're just going off of melee AT's.  But to me they seem like they're in a similar spot to sentinels, a weird hybrid class that's mediocre at everything, but at least the sentinel provides a rather potent debuff that's always useful, and they don't have to do much to use it, a brute has to work hard for their meter and they lose it so fast.

2 hours ago, MTeague said:

I don't believe it's actually possible to balance all combinations of powersets for all archtypes, and have them all perform the same by whatever metrics you choose to use.

I do believe it's possible to make them fun to play, and that is where the rubber meets the road for me.

 

Heresy #1:  I do not care about clear times. Not one bit. 

Heresy #2:  I do not care how fast or slow I finish a TF. It's not even on radar for me. 

 

I never invite people based on what powersets / archtype they bring. I invite people for fun. Bring the player, not the character.  It hasn't let me down yet.

I agree, you can't perfectly balance a game like this, or any mmorpg, that's just not a possible thing to achieve, I get that.  I'm just not sure what to say to my friend who's having a rough time with his brute.  He went Super strength and invulnerability and it seems a lot of people agree brutes do suffer a lot from scope creep. 

 

I think they can be viable at least, but don't you think it kind of sucks for people who don't know better?  They don't know how to min max or get the most out of a build.  The common theme with replies I see is that you need to know how to build a brute, and how to slot them, and with a lot of other AT's you just don't have that issue.  You can be a scrapper and kind of suck and still have a good time.  Or a blaster.  You're not going to be brutally punished for lack of game knowledge for picking them or how you build them, at least not as bad when compared to a brute and THAT's the issue I have.

 

Players who don't know better pick the class after trying others and they like the class but realize "wow this feels awful compared to a tanker, why am I wasting my time when there's better options?" 

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I guess in general guys, you make good points.  But it seems we also all agree scope creep happens with the classes.

 

Sure you can technically make all classes "viable"  Sure a bad scrapper is worse than a good brute, makes sense.

 

But at the end of the day, you can take that same game knowledge to a good class, and be even better, some of the classes could use some love.

 

It's kind of a hard sell on a new player who didn't know they picked an inferior class, to tell them well you shouldn't have picked those powers, and end game you'll need these attuned merit reward enhancements and you need these procs for your build, THEN you can tank efficiently.  Of course you'll need to farm merits or earn about 10 mil per enhancement for the AH, so about 40-60mil per power or proc mule.  Meanwhile they're trying to do Posi1 and struggle bussing, lol. 

Edited Monday at 09:32 PM by Falcon Striker

[FFTMime]

3 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

You misspelled Mastermind. It's a common mistake.

You know, I expected that to rile someone, but I didn't expect anyone to suddenly turn and shoot the masterminds...

[FFTMime]

1 hour ago, Uncle Shags said:

I was going to make a long drawn out attempt to make a point about balance, but this right here does it for me.  When one player can have experiences that lead to this opinion, and the teammate next to them on the roster has come to the opposite conclusion of "Why play any other AT when I can play a Dom?", how can we make sweeping assumptions about balance?

 

The only way to "know" is to crunch numbers like a mad scientist, but even then most of the conclusions are iffy and hotly debated.

 

What I love about this game is you can go into a team mission with any build or AT and come out thinking your contributions to the team were key to success.  When I'm playing (subtly) on one of my maxed out toons on a team full of lowbies, to them it seems like they're the ones saving the day.  Even though I could solo the mission, on their screen and in their minds they are super. No matter what they're playing. I think that's great.

I confess I would appreciate some coherent advice on making dominators.. work. They felt bad on live. Not quite so bad here, but they still can't really perform. 

[Snarky]

21 minutes ago, Falcon Striker said:

I'm seeing a lot of mixed opinions after your post so it's going to influence my response a bit.  I guess sentinels bring mediocre dps to the table so it begs the question, does their inherent ability bring enough to the table?  It seems good to me but I haven't got one to 50 yet.  Seems we also both agree Brutes could use a bit of love.

 

I guess my friends have been dooming and glooming a lot lot about the balance.  Maybe his brute DOES get better after 20.  I myself played a DM/SR brute with super speed and I've been enjoying it so far, we both got to 13.  I believe his is super strength/invulnerability and he claims it feels worse than playing a scrapper at that level.  He claims he can't hold threat, he dies too easily.  I was healing him during this with empathy as a defender.  Just not sure what to say to him.  He said he tested things out solo too after we did Posi1 and his health would drop by half being hit by 1 yellow enemy.  Even my SR scrapper wouldn't get hit that hard.

 

But it seems regardless, at least some level of scope creep is real.

Does their inherent ability make up for their lack of damage compared to other AT?

Fair enough man, but that kind of proves my point more, actually.  I can pick a scrapper, not do the golden ratio like I was supposed to, and still get to 50 smiling ear to ear and only seeking help to min max at the end game.  I took the advice btw, 3dmg/2acc/1end red works wonders, I'm slowly replacing them with attunement enhancements.

 

That being said, couldn't you take that knowledge so much further with better classes?  It kind of ignores what the thread is about, scope creep.

Brutes have ALWAYS sucked pre 20.  Before inherent fitness it was like trying to watch Strongmen run a Marathon.  Painful.

 

Sentinels are fun, and okay (never "OH WOW WE GOT A SENTINEL") (thats for kins...)  pre 50.  Aftyer 50 they get even less cool, because incarnate powers give everybody most of what they paid A LOT up front for.  (and will never get back)

[MTeague]

1 minute ago, FFTMime said:

I confess I would appreciate some coherent advice on making dominators.. work. They felt bad on live. Not quite so bad here, but they still can't really perform. 

Plant / Psi is stupidly fun for a Dominator.

• Standard roots and holds.
• Cone Confuse on a stupidly short recharge timer.
• Chaos with Carrion Creepers and a durable pet in Fly Trap.
• Options of heals in Spirit Tree (though that's less workable with a fast moving team), and Drain Psyche (AMAZING if you confuse, hop into the crowd and get several stacks).
• Multiple AE damage options to keep Exp where it should be after Seeds of Confusion.

[MTeague]

3 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Sentinels are fun, and okay (never "OH WOW WE GOT A SENTINEL")

To be fair, do you EVER see that reaction for ANY archtype ("Oh wow, we got a tank!  Oh wow, we got a blaster!") ? I don't.

Edited Monday at 09:58 PM by MTeague