Focused Feedback: Tanker - Archetype Inherent Changes

[Erratic1]

2 hours ago, StompyOne said:

Thank you!  So another 20-21ish percent reduction across the board (be it 1 target or 16) for damage procs.  There's even more math for the -Res procs because of that change.  That's a very serious kick in the short pants for Tankers.

 

Ok, definitely not a fan...

 

For it to be a 20ish percent reduction across the board, all your damage would have to come from procs--something which is difficult since you're using a damaging power which is going to be dealing its damage regardless.

[StompyOne]

Perhaps I could have phrased it differently, but I'm aware it's "for damage procs."  I get that it's not a total reduction in damage, but it is a big deal for proc damage in AoEs.

[Gobbledigook]

Many will agree Tankers were a little over buffed, I was one who said so at the time, especially with the extra AoE/targets but just be careful you don't make the same mistakes and over nerf them also. The buffs were a little OTT but they transformed the Tanker into a more fun class and a lot of players play classes based on fun factor.

 

Maybe introduce this in stages starting with the AoE nerf and see how it goes then later add the self damage buff nerf if necessary. 

 

A competent Corruptor will shame most Tankers in damage anyway whilst being very sturdy and bring buffs for the whole team. 

Edited Sunday at 03:59 PM by Gobbledigook

[Warboss]

7 minutes ago, Gobbledigook said:

Many will agree Tankers were a little over buffed, I was one who said so at the time, especially with the extra AoE/targets but just be careful you don't make the same mistakes and over nerf them also. 

 

I am fully confident that this will occur. 

 

8 minutes ago, Gobbledigook said:

A competent Corruptor will shame most Tankers in damage anyway whilst being very sturdy and bring buffs for the whole team. 

 

Careful where you point the spotlight, but until they are used for farming, probably pretty safe.

[Uncle Shags]

1 hour ago, Gobbledigook said:

Maybe introduce this in stages

Agreed! 

 

It very well may be that the recoding of aoe areas directly impacts the proc damage problem and solves the upper end overperformance problem. 

 

Why use a hatchet when a scalpel could work? 

[Uun]

Ran the "Prove Yourself to Borea" mission on my Fire/Fire tank at +2/x8 on both live and beta servers. Same map for both runs. Didn't clear the map but cleared the same groups on both runs (cleared to objective). Took 10 minutes on live and 14 minutes on beta (29% decrease in performance). This is a largely non-proc build (1 proc each in Fire Sword, Breath of Fire, Burn, Fire Sword Circle, Incinerate and Greater Fire Sword). 

 

Also did paired runs on my SR/Staff tank, but didn't get the same map on both runs. Clearing to objective took 12 minutes on live and 16 minutes on beta (25% decrease in performance), with the beta run reflecting the buffs to Staff. Also a largely non-proc build (1 proc each in Precise Strike, Eye of the Storm, Serpent's Reach and Sky Splitter).

Edited Sunday at 09:56 PM by Uun
fixed math

[golstat2003]

On 5/29/2025 at 5:41 AM, Auroxis said:

Back when the Tanker changes were first introduced I warned against that exact scenario of Tankers competing against Brutes. The changes in this patch basically do away with the increased damage scalars on the AoE's, but keeping the AoE aggro machine alive and giving Tanker an identity that doesn't clash with anything other AT's have to offer.

 

This is a step in the right direction, and is a step that can be built upon. Whether it be by expanding on this theme (giving tanker taunt a higher target cap? giving tanker more team supporty stuff?) or by beginning work on Brute identity (even better early game? the ability to choose what fury gives you?).

 

I'd encourage continued work on this in a later page.

 

I'd appreciate if they FINALLY focus on the work of improving Brutes as you said. I disagree that they need to do anything else with Tankers for now (for now being in the next year or two). Enough is enough, let's please focus on making Brutes better as you and others allude to. Continuing to futz around with Tankers is just ignoring the large (FURIOUS 😝) elephant in the room. lol

[golstat2003]

On 5/30/2025 at 12:46 PM, Gerswin said:

These changes don't effect 4* or most speed teams at all. There is a minor effect on tank fire farmers. They hammer the 'All melee KM ITF' and tank tf soloists the most. I just find it amusing the types of gameplay that the devs feel they need to nerf.

 

Overall, I like the new content but I am disappointed in all the changes that make me respec 100+ toons with dev statements that more changes are coming that will necessitate even more respecs. I guess fine balancing details are important to some people but I just want stability so I can dust off an old toon without having a frustratingly obsolete build.

 

Honestly anything that doesn't feel fun to play will be getting mothballed. I don't have the patience anymore to deal with the ridiculousness of the respec system/screen. (IMO one of the worst parts of City of Heroes -- not HC fault, it's always been that way. Champions Online improved this a bit.).

 

I'll just play anything else (Set or AT as needed). I'm used to it with HC changes by now. lol

Edited Sunday at 08:32 PM by golstat2003

[golstat2003]

On 5/31/2025 at 2:08 PM, Crysis said:

 

There's a third way, but I doubt it will be any more popular.

 

Remove Tab-to-Target mechanic entirely.  Force manual targeting (click to target or similar) and decrease the base accuracy/to-hit across the board, forcing everyone to either dramatically increase accuracy slotting or look for external damage buffs (eg; Kin or -RES powers).  

 

They gave us tougher mobs, MUCH tougher 4-star content, tougher zones, etc.  Everyone clamors that the game is "too easy" but then clearly avoid all the built-in "difficulty sliders" you can apply in-game.  

 

Take away trivial targeting and actually make selecting the correct target and hitting it count, you'll see systemic challenges across the entire playerbase.

 

Yeah you are right. This is dead on arrival. lol

[Erratic1]

39 minutes ago, Uun said:

Ran the "Prove Yourself to Borea" mission on my Fire/Fire tank at +2/x8 on both live and beta servers. Same map for both runs. Didn't clear the map but cleared the same groups on both runs (cleared to objective). Took 10 minutes on live and 14 minutes on beta (40% decrease in performance). This is a largely non-proc build (1 proc each in Fire Sword, Breath of Fire, Burn, Fire Sword Circle, Incinerate and Greater Fire Sword). 

 

Quibble: It took you 40% longer. Performance decreased by 100%-1/1.4=28.57%. That is a value more in line with what other people are reporting.

 

If you do not use procs, then procs are not the source of the difference. That leaves increased mob regeneration and overcap to be considered.

1. On live, if foes had 40% more health it would take you just as long as it did on the beta server. For the monsters on beta to generate 40% more life they would have to live 12*(40/5) = 96 second longer than they do live. If every monster you were killing took 96 seconds longer to kill, then unless the mission has shockingly few opponents.  So in repetition of what I said previously, I do not think there is much explanation to be had there, though it might contribute in a small way.
2. The overcap change is basically dropping damage past cap values precipitously quickly. Qualitatively speaking, it only applies when (a) you are using an area attack and (b) there are enough foes to reach an overcap situation. A good way to test overcap impact would be to not run at x8 but at x1, where you are mostly not facing crowds of opponents which push past the overcap limit as that should in theory give the same results as live.

It is probably worth testing the overcap impact because, at this point, if the results are different, then some other, unmentioned/unknown factor is at work and it would be good to demonstrate that if that is the case.

 

[lemming]

I think testing on a tanker might be issue with figuring out the numbers.   Running a scrapper or Brute with one of the non-affected power sets might give us a better idea on how much mob regen is being an issue.   Though mob regen will be more an issue with lower DPS chars.  (Defenders maybe, I think they've been ignored...)

[Uncle Shags]

1 hour ago, Uun said:

Ran the "Prove Yourself to Borea" mission on my Fire/Fire tank at +2/x8 on both live and beta servers

Good work.  Thank you!

[Uncle Shags]

57 minutes ago, lemming said:

I think testing on a tanker might be issue with figuring out the numbers.   Running a scrapper or Brute with one of the non-affected power sets might give us a better idea on how much mob regen is being an issue.   Though mob regen will be more an issue with lower DPS chars.  (Defenders maybe, I think they've been ignored...)

I tested live/beta with my fairly low dps SoA.  Regen change didn't make a difference.

[Uun]

1 hour ago, Erratic1 said:

It is probably worth testing the overcap impact because, at this point, if the results are different, then some other, unmentioned/unknown factor is at work and it would be good to demonstrate that if that is the case.

Ran "Borea - Defeat the Rikti Leader before he attacks" set to +2/x4 on live/beta with my Fire/Fire tank. At x4 there's only 1 boss on the map and all the spawns are smaller than 16. Ran 2x each as the maps were all different and just defeated all. Average time was 6:07 on live and 5:44 on beta. I think it's safe to say that overcap changes were the cause of the performance drop in my previous runs and that mob health/regeneration changes aren't resulting in a material change in performance.

[Erratic1]

2 minutes ago, Uun said:

Ran "Borea - Defeat the Rikti Leader before he attacks" set to +2/x4 on live/beta with my Fire/Fire tank. At x4 there's only 1 boss on the map and all the spawns are smaller than 16. Ran 2x each as the maps were all different and just defeated all. Average time was 6:07 on live and 5:44 on beta. I think it's safe to say that overcap changes were the cause of the performance drop in my previous runs and that mob health/regeneration changes aren't resulting in a material change in performance.

 

Certainly seems to point that way.

[Groovy_Ghoul]

On 5/31/2025 at 10:45 AM, skoryy said:

 

Because tankers are overperforming since the tanker buff, and Rage is really overperforming which has been known since the last time they tried re-working Rage years ago.

Overperforming? By what measure? What is the "standard" performance level and how much above this level designates it as "overperforming?" Seems very subjective. I think the developers really need to comment on what lead to this decision.

 

If Tankers are "overperforming," and I don't believe they are, what is the negative impact when you play other ATs and/or COH in general?

[schrodingercat]

I did not think it was possible for Kinetic melee to feel even worse than it already does. I stand corrected! The animation speed coupled with lower damage is so painful. This change was ostensibly to rein in the higher performing sets. People who take power sets for theme shouldn't be punished for that.

[Neiska]

10 hours ago, Warboss said:

 

I am fully confident that this will occur. 

 

 

Careful where you point the spotlight, but until they are used for farming, probably pretty safe.

 

1. I wish I shared your confidence. Each time I thought "no way they are really going to do that" I was disappointed.

 

2. Challenge accepted. Maybe if I post farming guides on builds/ATs that I don't like, they will get hit with the nerfbat too. 

[drducker]

i play quite a bit but nearly never, if ever post on the forums

 

a dmg nerf is probably warranted but maybe more from a powerset to powerset basis, sure -- i don't think this is it at all

it'll take a lot of looking at the chalkboard but i concur with the people bringing up that the comparisons between brute and tanker drives this balancing act when it should be trying to make them inherently more unique from each other - whatever that ends up looking like (honestly, it doesn't sound like a terribly easy thing to do, or even to envision currently)

but since powersets have proliferated from AT to AT, the points of unique spots between brute and tanker have been too muddied to ignore, and now with regen coming to tanker too? stalkers and scrappers have managed the play style difference, even if one is typically more applicable and played, controllers and dominators have an overlap and a wonderfully different playstyle
 

tanker and brute need to get to that level

until then, this really just looks like a broad stealth nerf to AE, which is just more punishing to people that don't AE farm on the AT, play poor sets, do solo content, etc

and if thats the case, if thats the aim, hit the rewards rather than the offenders - it'll be more unpopular but at least it will not be an easily undone respec or AT change for farmers, and hundreds of abandoned off-meta tankers sitting in page nine of character select for everyone else

 

(edit: wow this is really my first post, thats crazy - from 2019 launch to now might be a record on the forums or something)

Edited Monday at 03:56 AM by drducker
i just saw my post count, crazy

[Maelwys]

16 hours ago, Uun said:

Ran the "Prove Yourself to Borea" mission on my Fire/Fire tank at +2/x8 on both live and beta servers. Same map for both runs. Didn't clear the map but cleared the same groups on both runs (cleared to objective). Took 10 minutes on live and 14 minutes on beta (29% decrease in performance). This is a largely non-proc build (1 proc each in Fire Sword, Breath of Fire, Burn, Fire Sword Circle, Incinerate and Greater Fire Sword). 

 

Also did paired runs on my SR/Staff tank, but didn't get the same map on both runs. Clearing to objective took 12 minutes on live and 16 minutes on beta (25% decrease in performance), with the beta run reflecting the buffs to Staff. Also a largely non-proc build (1 proc each in Precise Strike, Eye of the Storm, Serpent's Reach and Sky Splitter).

 

It's worth noting that Staff was slightly buffed; currently on Brainstorm whenever you have 3x Perfection of Body stacks Sky Splitter is now doing >20% more raw damage than before (Eye of the Storm is also doing a smidge more than before, but it's the region of ~20 damage so practically negligible).
Whilst bumping the damage of one Single-Target attack won't have a huge impact on a Staff Tanker woodchippering their way through huge hordes of mooks; it might well be partially offsetting the negative impact of the "overcap damage reduction" whenever you're running regular missions. So I'm not surprised that your /Staff Tanker isn't quite as badly hit as a /Fire Tanker in your testing despite the fact that Staff possesses two cones (Guarded Spin and Innocuous Strikes) which were both very badly affected by the overcap damage nerf...  (😢)

Also FWIW; I've run some Brutes, Scrappers and VEATs through the same missions as my Tankers in order to double-check if the NPC Regeneration Buffs are slowing things down. They're not. The only noteworthy performance degradation I can see on those other ATs is related to specific powersets (Battle Axe and Radiation Armor). So it's 100% the Tanker Overcap changes that are the "problem" here.

Speaking frankly, IMHO the proposed radius/arc changes (moving from a global Gauntlet buff --> individual Powers) by itself will sufficiently reduce "damage proc" performance to make a noteworthy difference to min-maxxed Procbombed AoE damage-orientated Tankers (whether they're used for farming or "Kill Most" runs!). However the proposed overcap damage reduction will hurt non-procbombed Tankers the most (which is becoming more + more evident as we gather more before/after clear time comparisons!) which is why I think the current overcap curves being employed on Brainstorm are far too steep.
@Devs: Please don't penalise non-min-maxxed Tankers this harshly; they are not the problem. Either skip this "overcap" damage reduction change; or at most apply a flat reduction or lessen the curve (a flat -50% damage; or scaling -10%/-20% damage for AoEs/Cones would IMHO be the extreme upper end of what would be reasonable here!) if you want to reduce Tanker damage across the board rather than just the extreme outliers.
 

Edited Monday at 12:38 PM by Maelwys

[dukedukes]

I graphed several of the nerfs (not the -res one) for my character, maybe it is useful for others to visualize the nerfs. Hopefully the math is correct, let me know if there's an issue: https://www.desmos.com/calculator/avjtyshvjp . shield/fire Fire Sword Circle with build-up activated, 1 proc.

It seems to suggest the biggest nerf is the lower base damage (between 12% and 23% less, depends on power) due to the range increase, then damage fall-off close in second, self-damage buff and reduced proc rate are roughly tied (much less impactful, factor of 4 roughly. procs would get worse if you have more), all together it's quite a reduction in damage output, 57% of the damage on test compared to live in this worst case scenario.

[Uncle Shags]

15 minutes ago, dukedukes said:

I graphed several of the nerfs

Holy smokes that's awesome. 

[skoryy]

If we're basing off of clear speeds, the next question is how do tanker clear speeds on beta compare to brutes and scrappers?

[Warboss]

10 hours ago, Neiska said:

 

1. I wish I shared your confidence. Each time I thought "no way they are really going to do that" I was disappointed.

 

 

Just to make sure we're on the same page, I'm from what I've seen here with recent changes, an "over-nerfing" is on the way. Changing the damage cap and instituting the damage reduction with range is too much (unless it's applied to all ATs and all power sets).

 

10 hours ago, Neiska said:

 

2. Challenge accepted. Maybe if I post farming guides on builds/ATs that I don't like, they will get hit with the nerfbat too. 

 

 

Go for it. It would be funny to see the response.

 

Edited Monday at 01:52 PM by Warboss

[Warboss]

15 minutes ago, Uncle Shags said:

Holy smokes that's awesome. 

 

Very enlightening.