How would you 'fix' Rage & Super Strength?

[Hopeling]

2 minutes ago, ParagonKid said:

 

A set that carries extra penalties for being merely middle of the road is NOT okay.

 

SS isn't middle of the road though. It was #1 for brutes in Ston's rankings, for example, and not #1 but still S tier for tanks. Without the crash it would likely be a pre-nerf-TW level outlier; you can get an idea of what that would look like by shaving 10-20s off Ston's pylon times and 30-40s off the Trapdoor times.  I don't think this should be surprising to anyone; just glancing at the power info will tell you that Rage is Build Up except with quadruple the uptime. It is a very good power even with its downside, so good that it props up the whole set (and any actually-good attacks you can get from elsewhere).

 

I mean, I hate the damage crash; it's incredibly annoying to play. But just removing that would be a pretty significant buff to SS, without addressing the fact that the attacks are mostly trash, and that seems like the wrong place to start.

The defense crash could easily go; it already basically didn't exist on live, and it is disproportionately punishing to some armor sets while ignorable to others. The -def should at least be resistable, or replaced with a resistable -res, which would be exactly equally punishing to all sets due to the way that damage resistance is also resistance debuff resistance.

 

The end crash is fine. Nobody cares that eg Hasten has an end crash, and it's kind of thematic that going into a rage could leave you exhausted.

[ParagonKid]

1 minute ago, Andreah said:

Especially one that is THE ICONIC superhero powerset.

That's a subjective track of argument I try to avoid.

 

Objectively, if a set has severe penalties built into and other sets do not, and it merely breaks even with those other sets, that is NOT BALANCED.

 

To correct this, you either buff that one set until its performance is superior, you nerf ALL the other sets, or you remove the penalties.

 

Or, the  fourth option, you pretend it IS balanced, even overpowered, and try to gaslight anyone pointing out that it is not.

[arcane]

My understanding is that all testing, be it pylons or trapdoors or ston missions, is going to show the net effectiveness of Super Strength after any “penalties” are applied. So if SS has come out as S tier post-penalties, then ParagonKid is just plainly mistaken or purposefully untruthful.

[Forager]

6 minutes ago, ParagonKid said:

Objectively, if a set has severe penalties built into and other sets do not, and it merely breaks even with those other sets, that is NOT BALANCED.

 

If it has penalties that other sets do not, how does it still break even?

 

Does something counteract those penalties? Maybe even... balance them?

Edited July 7 by Forager

[ParagonKid]

19 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

SS isn't middle of the road though. It was #1 for brutes in Ston's rankings, for example, and not #1 but still S tier for tanks. 

 

 

Ah yes, the tests that used Super Strength's iconic attacks "Gloom" and "Crosspunch".

 

Where SS ranked well for AoE Trapdoor, only on Brutes, but was decidedly mediocre for single target damage, but carries the penalties all the same even when you're not fighting something that plays to its strength and carries penalties that sets ranked as good or better still don't have.

 

Do you really feel 200 milliseconds of difference from the next guy warrants a crash?

 

Ice, Katana, Fire and Battleaxe do not have a crash. SS does not outperform anyone enough to warrant a special crash. It simply does not.

 

In a course graded on a curve, SS scored an A on its Math test, a C on its English, someone declares SS Valedictorian and then shoots it in the foot as a reward even though most of the class did better in English and the next best Math score was also an A.

Edited July 7 by ParagonKid

[arcane]

2 minutes ago, ParagonKid said:

 

Ah yes, the tests that used Super Strength's iconic attacks "Gloom" and "Crosspunch".

 

Where SS ranked well for AoE Trapdoor, only on Brutes, but was decidedly mediocre for single target damage, but carries the penalties all the same even when you're not fighting something that plays to its strength and carries penalties that sets ranked as good or better still don't have.

 

Do you really feel 200 milliseconds of difference from the next guy warrants a crash?

 

Ice, Katana, Fire and Battleaxe do not have a crash. SS does not outperform anyone enough to warrant a special crash. It simply does not.

You are still thinking about this incorrectly. SS is only not outperforming things because the crash is there to balance it. You seem to be confusing SS pre- and post-penalties.

[El D]

If Rage were to get a rework, I think it should reflect the intentions of the existing ATs better. Spitballing various ideas, Tanker and Brute Rage could increase the effect of taunts and available aggro limit while active. Give greater damage boosts to the lower tier attacks and proc effects to Knockout Blow and Foostomp rather than just flat +damage across the board. -Resistance/-Defense could work, the classic 'I put my back in it this time' of hitting harder to break through the opponent's protection. The more you hit, the harder you hit the next time. Works with Fury as a mechanic and with Gauntlet. Hell, maybe even tie it into the inherent powers - Brute Rage builds in-conjunction with Fury for even higher damage numbers and enemies affected by Gauntlet while Tanker Rage is up have their Resistance debuffed. Brute spends Fury to negate the lessened damage of the crash and keep punching, while Tankers - even with the -damage - can still be the center of the mob and dole out debuffs.

 

Bonus points, having AT bespoke Rage seems like it would make it easier to proliferate to Scrappers and Stalkers. Maybe call their variant Frenzy or Rampage to illustrate the difference. Have it boost accuracy and damage but also offer crit chance effects. Greater crit chances for lower tier attacks, proc options for Knockout Blow/Hurl/Foostomp. Scrapper could proc additional effects like holds or immobs while Stalker could proc Hide. Hit someone so hard they just recoil in pain for a moment or lose all track of where the opponent is. Thematically the idea of 'precisely applied' Super Strength feels more fitting for those ATs than Rage as is.

[SeraphimKensai]

Well as this pops up frequently enough given the recent patch I have a new opinion....

 

Why not keep Rage as is but make it mutually exclusive with a toggle similar to Reactive Regeneration in that the power starts off fairly weak, but builds up in its damage buff every time your attacked through micro stacking damage buffs (with say a 30 second duration, so they gradually break off as well) received when taking damage to top out where double stacked rage is.

 

There would naturally be an end cost to the power, and it leads itself to the fact that it has to ramp up the damage over the course of a fight. It would probably lead itself to constantly looking to fight more and more, so who knows maybe the end cost gradually builds as well rather than a -damage crash.

 

Just an idea.

[ParagonKid]

41 minutes ago, arcane said:

You are still thinking about this incorrectly. SS is only not outperforming things because the crash is there to balance it. You seem to be confusing SS pre- and post-penalties.

 

No. You're thinking about it the wrong way.

 

Take Rage out of the picture.

 

Now SS has no extra penalties.

It's now just a collection of terrible attacks plus KO Blow.

It's being outperformed by every set including Kinetic Melee, probably.

 

So, bring Rage back in. Now you've taken on a unique 'tax' to endurance and defense. Now you're marginally better than the #2 Trapdoor set, who didn't have to play a price for that. And you're still only middling at Pylons, being outclassed by sets that, again, pay nothing for being better than you.

 

So, no. SS should not be uniquely paying a "crash tax" for landing midway on any chart. You're insane to try and rationalize it.

Edited July 7 by ParagonKid

[Hopeling]

26 minutes ago, ParagonKid said:

Ah yes, the tests that used Super Strength's iconic attacks "Gloom" and "Crosspunch".

Right, we agree that the attacks in SS itself are mostly bad. Removing the crash wouldn't fix that. You would still keep leaning on Gloom and Cross Punch, you just would be better at it.

 

If anything, Ston testing with Willpower underplays how impactful Rage is, because it's not buffing Burn or a damage aura. Yes Battle Axe doesn't have a crash, but it doesn't get a 120-second duration on Build Up either.

 

26 minutes ago, ParagonKid said:

Do you really feel 200 milliseconds of difference from the next guy warrants a crash?

A defense crash, no, as I said before. A damage crash, objectively yes, because that tiny difference is after accounting for the crash. It's not on-par and then has a crash to boot, it's well ahead and then brought back to mid-to-high-tier due to the crash.

 

Again, I hate the crash and I would be happy to see it go; it's simply not fun regardless of how good the power is overall. But removing the crash and leaving the power otherwise the same would just buff the set to outlier levels without fixing the weird reliance on pool attacks. I think you have to make broader changes to both Rage and the other SS powers to address that.

Edited July 7 by Hopeling

[ParagonKid]

"Yes Battle Axe doesn't have a crash, but it doesn't get a 120-second duration on Build Up either."

 

It doesn't need a 120 second Build Up when it's beating/nearly matching Rage+SS without it, does it?

 

Because SS is a worse set. And a worse set should not have to pay a crash penalty because of a power that merely bring it up to par.

 

I would accept the crash if SS's actual performance towered over everything else. Power with a price. It simply does not, though. And that's on TOP of SS being boring and basic.

Edited July 7 by ParagonKid

[Hopeling]

Right, again, I agree that the defense crash is unnecessary and should probably go. The endurance crash could go too, I don't feel strongly about that either way.

 

The damage crash, you can't just remove without other changes, because that crash is why SS is merely on par with the other best sets, instead of a huge outlier.

[ParagonKid]

I'm saying you can keep the -def and -end IF SS is actually allowed to be a huge outlier.

 

How that should be done is debatable. I'd look at the ST attacks, seeing as that is where SS lags in the standings.

[Forager]

33 minutes ago, ParagonKid said:

So, no. SS should not be uniquely paying a "crash tax" for landing midway on any chart. You're insane to try and rationalize it.

 

This is really fun to watch, but I would like to help you.

 

You are arguing, quite passionately, that SS shouldn't have a crash to just end up even with the other sets. Most of the people are trying to explain to you that it is even because of the crash.

 

You have not made it clear that you understand this. It's either because "duh obviously" or just "duh." But either way, your argument would be more effective if you included an alternative.

 

So are you saying...

 

A) In exchange for figuring out what to do with yourself for 10 seconds, you should get a bigger buff?

 

OR

 

B) They should remove the crash and then nerf the set a little?

 

OR

 

C) Some other choice?

 

 

 

Edited July 7 by Forager

[PeregrineFalcon]

Rage should be replaced with another attack power and then the damage on all of the powers brought up to almost where it would be if double stacked Rage was running.

 

Boom! Problem solved.

[Hopeling]

1 minute ago, Forager said:

 

You are arguing, quite passionately, that SS shouldn't have a crash to just end up even with the other sets. Most of the people are trying to explain to you that it is even because of the crash.

I think we are talking past each other somewhat here. SS should not have a defense and endurance crash just to do the same damage as other sets. That's just true. People specifically avoid playing SS with defense sets because the crash is too punishing.

[ParagonKid]

18 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

I think we are talking past each other somewhat here. SS should not have a defense and endurance crash just to do the same damage as other sets. That's just true. People specifically avoid playing SS with defense sets because the crash is too punishing.

Correct. And I'm personally OK with Rage having a defense, endurance and damage time out if SS was actually crushing every other set for ST and AoE damage. It barely nudges into first place for Trapdoor on one AT.

 

And all of this just discussing SS's numerical performance. Even if that issue was solved, it's still got thematic issues and is boring.

[Hopeling]

For what it's worth, I think it would make significantly more sense to remove the defense crash, rather than to leave it in and make the set OP to compensate. For one thing because that's just weird design, and for another because how much of a penalty it is varies wildly by armor set. It's OK for attacks sets to have some degree of synergy or anti-synergy with primary/secondary, but "borderline unplayable with SR and you don't even notice it with Elec" is too much variance IMO.

 

6 minutes ago, ParagonKid said:

And all of this just discussing SS's numerical performance. Even if that issue was solved, it's still got thematic issues and is boring.

That second part is totally fixable; just make Hurl and Hand Clap powers you actually want to take. The set already has powers that aren't just punching, they're just terrible.

[arcane]

30 minutes ago, ParagonKid said:

Correct. And I'm personally OK with Rage having a defense, endurance and damage time out if SS was actually crushing every other set for ST and AoE damage. It barely nudges into first place for Trapdoor on one AT.

 

And all of this just discussing SS's numerical performance. Even if that issue was solved, it's still got thematic issues and is boring.

SS isn’t crushing the opposition because it is balanced by the Rage crash. If you see SS merely tying for 1st place with the Rage crash, that means SS was actually the clear front runner before being balanced by the crash.

 

Reading comprehension helps

[Forager]

I have a fix!

 

Reduce Rage duration to a minute and put it on a 7 minute timer that ignores enhancements.

 

Greatly increase the damage buff, like astronomically high, insane numbers.

 

You would lose access to taunt, gauntlet would stop working... and it should probably add a fear effect to your attacks and taunt auras.

 

The crash includes a massive PBAoE knockback that drains all your endurance, stuns you, THEN placates you. 

 

Then I would make all the punches in the set not look so stupid and remove the knockback from Hand Clap. It's just a stun.

 

I would then put anyone with a spreadsheet or "pylon times" on ignore and go join a bunch of PUGs and see if it's fun.

 

Then I would take one or two off ignore if they promise not to whine and just tell me the numbers. I would balance the whole thing so that a build without rage at all is slightly above average.

 

Boom. The power is thematic, the set is balanced, it doesn't look so goofy and it makes Controllers, Defenders and teamwork relevant again.

 

Oh yeah, and make Hurl a very narrow cone.

 

 

Edited July 7 by Forager

[Lazarus]

This is my RAGE idea 

RAGE 

toggle   .39 end/sec or .56 end/sec

+50% DAMAGE,  +10% TO HIT, +DAMAGE ON KB/KD, ( dam. proc on kd/kb)

 

With this rage looks more like the OFFENSIVE STANCE from bio armor.

 

BY doing it like this, it eliminates the stacking and crash problems. 

[Erratic1]

3 hours ago, ParagonKid said:

Ah yes, the tests that used Super Strength's iconic attacks "Gloom" and "Crosspunch".

 

I could probably argue with a straight face that if you do not take Cross Punch, given SS has only one damaging AoE attack, you're doing something intentionally sub-optimal.

 

As goes Gloom, the fact that Rage empowers it is meaningful as Rage IS part of the set. Obviously, Rage could be restricted to only work with set powers, but at that point some serious retuning needs to occur to the set.

[Biff Pow]

My problem with the -damage crash is it just feels kludge-y. I think an increased endurance crash gives the same effect (better calm down) but it would feel more natural than 'no damage for ten seconds.'

 

Yes, there are other things to do during those ten seconds and powers that will work, but mostly you're just hovering over the key for Footstomp or KO Blow waiting for the crash to end.

[Erratic1]

51 minutes ago, Biff Pow said:

My problem with the -damage crash is it just feels kludge-y. I think an increased endurance crash gives the same effect (better calm down) but it would feel more natural than 'no damage for ten seconds.'

 

Make Rage a toggle, have it grant a Fatigue debuff with every attack made which increases endurance costs by 10% every 6 seconds to a maximum Fatigue cap of 20. Fatigue fades only when Rage is toggled off based on your Endurance recovery rate, but with a default rate of one stack every 6 seconds. 

 

No more double stacking, a downside which is controllable, and some mitigation of downside based on how you build.

[skoryy]

I see we're at the same discourse that killed the last attempts at 'fixing' Rage.

 

Now for my hot take: Super Strength for Scrappers doesn't work thematically. How do you get someone stronger than a tank or a brute yet only has middling HP and a 75% resist cap.