MiDs continues it's years long downhill slide

[Snarky]

6 hours ago, Jacke said:

Welp, @Snarky, no versions from you.  I'll just give you the best but briefest instructions.

 

Alas, brief means a bunch of instructions, but I'll make every one of them simple.

 

And testing it on my own machine.  Which is taking a while because it's being a bit too "baroque".  Sigh.

 

When I get it done, I'll post it here. in a new reply.

 

 

Hey, Donations take time to get to the proper charities!  

 

Windows 10 (Old comp I keep to the side for Wiki, Discord, MRB, etc...)

MRB 3.7.11 rev 2

I do not know how to check HCDB, isnt that just Homecoming, which I keep updated to newest?

[tidge]

While I recognize that some of the suggested methods to help @Snarky diagnose the issue... I've lost track of all the extra software pieces suggested along the way... on top of connecting to Discord for help and updates. I'm trying to recall the last time I encountered a 'user-level' piece of software that required as much effort... I don't recall setting up old USENET newservers taking up as much effort, and even things like MUD/MUSH weren't as complicated.

[Maelwys]

The main problem is that the App has changed prerequisites a LOT over the years, and the updater has gone through some very buggy iterations.

If you have a clean Win10 or Win11 PC with the three prerequisites (DotNet 8.0 Desktop Runtime and DotNet Framework 4.8 and the latest Visual C++ redistributable) then it'll install just fine and update just fine - I've done that recently on two laptops.

If however you've got a PC that isn't clean there could be other software/configuration bits blocking it (like Firewalls/Antivirus/etc).

And if you've got an older version of Mids which predates the Bootloader changes, then it's quite possible that you'll likely only get the notification that a patch is available but pressing the update button does nothing (because the bootloader is the thing that actually performs the newer updates; so if it can't run properly then nothing happens). In that case the only way to fix it is to install the Visual C++ Redistributable and manually replace the existing "MRBBootstrap.exe" file within your Mids installation folder with an up-to-date copy (the patcher will try to do this; but it often fails to extract the zip file containing the new exe).

In most cases, ensuring you have the three prerequisite DotNet and Visual C++ bits and then downloading a working copy of the software (NOT just the latest database, but the whole installation folder) e.g. "mids_3.7.14.3+db_25.6.1082.zip" from https://updates.midsreborn.com/full_updates/ works and will let you run the update successfully.

[Skyhawke]

I think Snarky's ghouls are mucking with his machine when he's not around. 

[tidge]

Since I don't use MIDS, my comments are more along the lines of wondering why spend the effort sustaining this and not refactoring it? I've worked with industrial solutions where the 'fear of $$ investment' that kept us supporting/maintaining/updating old code bases... but not to the extent it looks like is happening here. This is obviously a hobby software, but there are other pieces of software that fall into a similar category that have been maintained as 'one-person efforts' for long periods of time, and require far less overhead (in terms of external reliance, both in terms of software and network).

 

I'm not unaware of the complications, but for what it does: it shouldn't need to be more complicated than a GUI, a database, and 'calculations/rules enforcing' module.

[lemming]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

While I recognize that some of the suggested methods to help @Snarky diagnose the issue... I've lost track of all the extra software pieces suggested along the way... on top of connecting to Discord for help and updates. I'm trying to recall the last time I encountered a 'user-level' piece of software that required as much effort... I don't recall setting up old USENET newservers taking up as much effort, and even things like MUD/MUSH weren't as complicated.

Hey, at least we're not sitting in an office feeding 40 floppy disks into a system to install an OS.  (And then setting up uucp to be able to upload the rest of the SW so you could go to bed while it chugged away)

[Snarky]

1 minute ago, lemming said:

Hey, at least we're not sitting in an office feeding 40 floppy disks into a system to install an OS.  (And then setting up uucp to be able to upload the rest of the SW so you could go to bed while it chugged away)

No, we are using high speed internet to fail to get this MiDs thing to work for two years…

[lemming]

11 minutes ago, Snarky said:

No, we are using high speed internet to fail to get this MiDs thing to work for two years…

See! We're failing much faster now!

[Derek Icelord]

2 hours ago, tidge said:

Since I don't use MIDS, my comments are more along the lines of wondering why spend the effort sustaining this and not refactoring it? I've worked with industrial solutions where the 'fear of $$ investment' that kept us supporting/maintaining/updating old code bases... but not to the extent it looks like is happening here. This is obviously a hobby software, but there are other pieces of software that fall into a similar category that have been maintained as 'one-person efforts' for long periods of time, and require far less overhead (in terms of external reliance, both in terms of software and network).

 

I'm not unaware of the complications, but for what it does: it shouldn't need to be more complicated than a GUI, a database, and 'calculations/rules enforcing' module.

 

As I understand it this point, refactoring would be more work than burning it down and rebuilding from scratch. As to why that hasn't been done yet, I can only assume it's actually a lot more complicated than just a GUI, database, and rules enforcing. A wish for a new builder program goes all the way back to the retail days and people wanting a web based version. No one's made anything comparable yet.

[Ghost]

I’m thinking that some people are just not worthy.

 

There is something so egregious in their past, that the gods looked down upon them and said “No Mids for you!!!”

 

[RandoHero]

Mids? I still can't get HeroStats to work 😔

[Jacke]

My highlight.

 

6 hours ago, Snarky said:

Windows 10 (Old comp I keep to the side for Wiki, Discord, MRB, etc...)

MRB 3.7.11 rev 2

I do not know how to check HCDB, isnt that just Homecoming, which I keep updated to newest?

 

The HCDB version is in the MRB Window Title Bar, the one that starts "2025....".

 

Both versions are in the About Window, which you can bring up via the Help Menu:

• Help > About....

That App version should be able to update to the new release today..

• Help > Check for Updates > Click the Update button

If that doesn't work, it'll take a while for me to write a good install script for you.

 

 

5 minutes ago, RandoHero said:

Mids? I still can't get HeroStats to work 😔

 

@ineffablebob, last maintainer of HeroStats, hasn't been on Homecoming since 2024 January.  And as I remember it, he last said it wasn't possible to make a HeroStats for current City without an API to get the information from the game client in a robust and stable manner.

 

 

[Championess]

Anyone having troubles with mids I've got just the program for you...

 

[tidge]

2 hours ago, Derek Icelord said:

 I can only assume it's actually a lot more complicated than just a GUI, database, and rules enforcing. 

 

Without a GUI, and and minimal rules-enfocing, I think it could be done in Excel. It would be HIGHLY painful, but possible... at least for something like a single AT.

 

With an actual database, many programs run SQL under-the-hood, there can't possible be anything more complicated that have a GUI to present the possible choices (starting with ATs, then primary/secondary/pools/epics, then powers) enforced by rules.

 

I almost started this as a proof-of-concept... what stopped me was that I simply don't use/need MIDS.... I am comfortable checking City of Data and/or in game for power details. I 'know' the ED scales. I know the sets and their bonuses... and then there is my personal iconoclasm,,, it is really hard to get me to care about 'set bonuses' and stats, especially once certain personal 'point of diminishing returns' is past. This point varies depending on AT (and power picks).

[lemming]

My main use of Mids was to look at other people's builds.

[Skyhawke]

1 hour ago, Championess said:

Anyone having troubles with mids I've got just the program for you...

 

 

 

 

[Scarlet Shocker]

5 hours ago, lemming said:

My main use of Mids was to look at other people's builds.

 

You can get arrested for that these days

[Championess]

9 minutes ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

 

You can get arrested for that these days

 

 

Throw 'im in the pen, no juicebox Mister!

 

[BurtHutt]

I am still absolutely amazed that there isn't a more inherent toon build that is connected to the game. MIDS is rather wonky but it....works...

 

I'll honestly say, I doubt I'd make any new toons without a planner/builder. I am hoping the DEVS can make a proper toon planner and implement it.

[Snarky]

Edited 23 hours ago by Snarky

[Derek Icelord]

On 11/25/2025 at 10:27 AM, tidge said:

 

Without a GUI, and and minimal rules-enfocing, I think it could be done in Excel. It would be HIGHLY painful, but possible... at least for something like a single AT.

 

With an actual database, many programs run SQL under-the-hood, there can't possible be anything more complicated that have a GUI to present the possible choices (starting with ATs, then primary/secondary/pools/epics, then powers) enforced by rules.

 

I almost started this as a proof-of-concept... what stopped me was that I simply don't use/need MIDS.... I am comfortable checking City of Data and/or in game for power details. I 'know' the ED scales. I know the sets and their bonuses... and then there is my personal iconoclasm,,, it is really hard to get me to care about 'set bonuses' and stats, especially once certain personal 'point of diminishing returns' is past. This point varies depending on AT (and power picks).

 

Given what Zed has gone through to keep the existing program up-to-date and (mostly) accurate, I feel rather confident in saying it's more than "just a database". At the very least that glosses over a lot of complexity. Otherwise, I have to imagine someone would have built an alternative already.

Edited 21 hours ago by Derek Icelord

[tidge]

1 minute ago, Derek Icelord said:

 

Given what Zed has gone through to keep the existing program up-to-date and (mostly) accurate, I feel rather confident in saying it's more than "just a database". At the very least that glosses over a lot of complexity. Otherwise, I have to imagine someone would have built an alternative already.

 

My comments were NOT about the program "as is", my comments about the 3-piece architecture (so more than "just a database") were what was needed to fulfill the purpose of the software. In more detail:

 

1) Database

This is needed for the ATs, power sets, the powers, the enhancement sets, etc. Think "stuff we can look up on City of Data"

 

2) The GUI

This is needed to that users can make selections, and see options based on the selections... as well as the outputs of their selections

 

3) The 'rules enforcer'

This is needed to validate (in presentation, in choice) what the user can select under different circumstances. Levels of selectable powers, enhancements are the obvious things... but there are a wide variety of odd 'rules' about powers (VEAT paths, new 'pick one' powers) and of course restrictions on enhancements. I forsee this module keeping track of the net bonuses as part of its 'enforcement' (basically: allow/disallow and track, apply the ED formulae, etc) <- but information in the database feeds a lot of this.

 

Most of the work happens in #3, ideally a well-constructed database can make the logic in #3 more straightforward and simple.

 

Bootloaders and autoupdaters aren't necessary to do what people want the program to do...  those are fine to have as options, but a "check for updates" feature is often "good enough". With relatively few dependencies updates should be pretty smoothly. 

 

As for "why hasn't someone built something else?" ... Frankly... there are only a small handful of players and forum regulars I think might have both the motivation and talent to tackle this. It is human nature to simply stick with the old tools. I'd like to develop myself further with database design and rules enforcing... but I simply have no motivation to do this just to have near-infinite levers to shift for tiny percentages of whatever. For me... those tiny differences in numbers don't affect my enjoyment of the game. The number one thing I track when I am planning a character is the number of enhancement slots... after that, I typically have a very good feel for what works best... and if I want to try something else in-game... I do it in game.

[Jacke]

IMPORTANT: The MRB staff are aware of ALL issues I mention here and should eventually fix them.  (They also added a new dev too.)

 

It is tough running a volunteer project, because you need people with skills and free time.

 

Anyhoo, as I discovered while doing tests to get a process for @Snarky

• Latest MRB download on their website is for App v3.7.11.2.
• Due to issues, the current active MRB Devs can't:
  • Update the website main page.
  • Fix some more issues with updating.
    • The MRB Discord is a good place to get help.
    • Here's the current Discord invite link to it for players already on Discord:
      https://discord.gg/mids-reborn-593336669004890113
• With the current update, updating broke yet again (sigh).
  • If you're on the next-to-latest MRB App version (including fixing the Bootstrapper):
    • You may be able to just update in MRB via HELP > CHECK FOR UPDATES....
    • I know this because it worked for me before my tests....
• Everyone else, there's a process I list below.
  • It works because after my tests, it's how I reinstalled MRB to the latest.
  • But it's not simple and needs to be understood.

That process below is what I had to do to get MRB reinstalled and up-to-date after all my testing.

 

So updating is unreliable, again.  If it succeeds, it's good, but it will often fail.  Prior to the last update, there was a 2-update process where the first update says it failed but it did update partly, then the second update fixes the Bootstrapper and then finished updating.  But that broke, again.

 

Right now, in very brief form, this is how to install MRB to the most current.  If you don't understand what's happening here, DON'T DO IT.

• IMPORTANT: Safety check that your build files aren't being stored in the MRB application folder tree.
  • I have no idea how it gets set up, because the install defaults are safe and separate.
  • A step below is deleting all the contents of that MRB application folder tree.
  • Which if the builds are somehow in the application folder tree, BUILDS GET DELETED.
  • If you don't understand how to check this, I can explain it simply, but that'll take a while to do.
  • If you're not sure of this, DON'T FOLLOW THE REST HERE.
  • I've seen too many players get burned by this.
  • How they got there, who knows?
• Download the latest MRB installer from the MRB website, or the direct link second
  https://midsreborn.com/
  https://github.com/LoadedCamel/MidsReborn/releases/latest/download/MRB_Setup.exe
• Download a zip file of MRB App v3.7.15.1 and HCDB v2025.11.1232 from here:
  https://updates.midsreborn.com/full_updates/mids_3.7.15.1%2Bdb_25.11.1232.zip
  • This one isn't on the MRB website because the current working devs can't change the website main page.
• Make sure you have both downloads okay before continuing.
• Uninstall whatever MRB is install on your computer.
• Install the latest MRB install (for App v3.7.11.2 at the time of posting).
  • Launch MRB to make sure it runs okay but decline any updates as they will fail solid.
  • Check the App and HCDB versions via HELP > ABOUT....
    • If that lists newer versions (larger numbers) that the zip, the installer was updated, hurrah!
      • Just check for updates with HELP > CHECK FOR UPDATES and click UPDATE
    • AND STOP!
• Go to the install folder for MRB and delete all contents.
• Open the .zip for MRB v3.7.15.1 HCDB 25.11.1232.
• Copy the contents of the .zip to the MRB install folder.
• Launch the current MRB to check it runs okay.
  • Only if there's a newer update will an update be offered.
• Configure MRB how you like it.
• Close the MRB window to store those config changes.
  • Only if all MRB windows are stored closed do config changes stick.
• Carry on using MRB.

 

 

Edited 13 hours ago by Jacke

[knightowl - Pinnacle serve]

57 minutes ago, tidge said:

those tiny differences in numbers don't affect my enjoyment of the game

 

I think I am there with you - the dividends from its use would be proportional to the the incremental differences it would point out or make obvious.

I'd used Mid's years ago, but now, it's more fun for me to build a new character from scratch in-game than to theorycraft one with a third-party tool - I guess that could be my way of contributing to the game's longevity, at least for myself.

[Captain Fabulous]

I just opened Mids, it said there was an update, I said yes and it updated with no issues. 🤷‍♂️