Super Reflexes vs Ninjitsu

[Ultimo]

So, tonight I was tinkering with a SR Scrapper character, and got into a conversation with someone who suggested that Ninjitsu might be a preferable set.

 

Opening up Mids, I found that Super Reflexes provides around 30% Defense to Melee, Ranged and AOE (SOs only, and no pools, for the sake of comparison).  This requires the use of SEVEN powers (21 enhancement slots, total).  Ninjitsu provides just shy of 22%, using only TWO powers (4 slots total).  It also provides 11% Resistance to EVERYTHING (another 3 slots, taking the total to 7).

 

Looking at this, I'm beginning to wonder why I would take Super Reflexes?  Is there something I'm missing?

I mean, the 22% Defense is lower, but with Combat Jumping and Weave, and possibly Maneuvers, it goes up to more than 30%.  Plus, it has a stealth power that takes it up to 27% while he's not attacking, as well as a heal and an endurance heal.  What I mean is, one or two additional powers, and Ninjitsu leaves SR kind of in the dust.

 

Or am I misinterpreting things?  Any thoughts?

[Triumphant]

You have to look at debuff resistance, too.  I haven't tried ninjitsu, so I don't know what it maxes out at.  SR maxes out at like 90 or 95% debuff resistance, I think.

 

EDIT:  Defense debuff resistance specifically, I mean.

Edited yesterday at 07:05 AM by Triumphant

[Triumphant]

*Meh.  Posted in wrong topic.  I clearly need to go to bed*  🤪

Edited yesterday at 07:26 AM by Triumphant

[aethereal]

Ninjutsu has lower defense values and much worse DDR, and no recharge bonus, in return for a heal, an endurance tool, and a stealth bonus with a once-per-combat crit chance increase.  SR gets resistances too via scaling resists, so, meh, call that a wash.  (EDIT:  Oh, Ninjutsu gets good psi resist too, which is nice.)

 

I like Ninjutsu.  It's a good set.  But it definitely has a much, much bigger problem with defense debuffers than SR does.

Edited yesterday at 01:58 PM by aethereal

[lemming]

I've done both, I prefer Ninjitsu, but as aethereal says, it's a wash and comes down to minor preferences

[Erratic1]

People always leave out Ninjitsu's confuse power. Confused mobs are not spending their entire time attacking you, so it is a defense (of a limited, active sort). Skippable? Certainly, but it does exist.

[aethereal]

1 hour ago, Erratic1 said:

People always leave out Ninjitsu's confuse power. Confused mobs are not spending their entire time attacking you, so it is a defense (of a limited, active sort). Skippable? Certainly, but it does exist.

It being mag 2 kills it for me.

[Ultimo]

I should probably say, the character is (loosely) based on Saitama.  The objective is to create a character who has a minimal set of attacks that do substantial damage, while being more or less unassailable himself.  I'm not terribly familiar with Saitama though, so I'm going by what little I have actually seen.  He's fast, of course, as most of the time, enemies can't even hit him... but also durable (I've seen him take attacks, and his head just bobbles around with him barely noticing).  This says to me  he needs to have some Resistance, as well as substantial Defense.  Ninjitsu does provide some Resistance...

 

The resistance to debuffs is something I hadn't noted...  Certainly something to consider.  Given that his arch-nemesis is mosquitoes, who might be considered a debuff, perhaps less defense against debuffs is in character...!?  😛

[MTeague]

For Scrappers, I prefer Super Reflexes. It takes a bit longer to get off the ground, but it keeps the defense when it matters most.  Add in a Panacea Proc and a Power Transfer Heal Proc, and your maintenance heals vs the occasional lucky shot, are covered without needing to dip into Medicine.

 

For Stalkers, I much prefer Ninjitsu.  Because Caltrops is amazing at stopping all incoming melee damage cold while I slice-n-dice. Scrappers can eventually get Caltrops in an epic pool, but  Stalkers get it as just part of the Ninjitsu kit, along with the rest.

[Erratic1]

18 hours ago, aethereal said:

It being mag 2 kills it for me.

 

It certainly contextualizes its potential uses. Defense cap being defense cap no matter what armor set you are using, if Blinding Powder worked on bosses, on top of Nin providing a heal and endurance recovery, how would it not be hands down superior to SR?

 

DDR? Much less of an issue when everything short of EVs, AVs, and GMs can be confused. Arguably that would be overpowered. Leaving Bosses on the table is a more balanced consideration.

 

Nin is a layered set, as opposed to SR's, "It does one thing" approach. It is fine to prefer one to the other, certainly. But a lot of, "I don't like Nin" seems to revolve around one aspect of its layers and saying, "It's weaker than the same aspect on another set". But people don't do that near so much when considering Bio, Invulnerability, Rad Armor (or presumably the new Psi Armor). The equivalent would be people saying of SR, "But it doesn't give you crits when come out of stealth (for that matter it doesn't have stealth)."

 

 

Edited 10 hours ago by Erratic1

[ZeeHero]

Why be invisible when you can just dodge the bullets?

[aethereal]

27 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

It certainly contextualizes its potential uses. Defense cap being defense cap no matter what armor set you are using, if Blinding Powder worked on bosses, on top of Nin providing a heal and endurance recovery, how would it not be hands down superior to SR?

 

Just to be clear, Blinding Powder doesn't work on lieutenants (without stacking).  And has only a 50% chance to confuse (and the sleep is only mag 2 as well).  Having it be mag 4 ("works on bosses") would clearly be a stretch for an armor power, but working only on minions makes it a not great power IMO.

 

This isn't an indictment of the set, just the power.  I have extensively played level 50 /Ninj scrapper, stalker, and sentinel toons.

[Erratic1]

25 minutes ago, aethereal said:

Just to be clear, Blinding Powder doesn't work on lieutenants (without stacking).  And has only a 50% chance to confuse (and the sleep is only mag 2 as well).  Having it be mag 4 ("works on bosses") would clearly be a stretch for an armor power, but working only on minions makes it a not great power IMO.

 

Well I did say it was skippable. I would honestly have to look to see which of my characters with Nin who took it or took it as something other than a place to get set bonuses from. 

 

Checking my WM/Nin Scrapper, I am going to guess his slotting was driven by desire for Recharge bonus with a side of To-Hit debuff.

 

Edit: I think given the other tools Nin has, getting the power to be more reliable/stronger would be a tall order.

 

 

Edited 9 hours ago by Erratic1

[Sancerre]

nin is generally weaker unless you lean into cycling the t9 with unleash potential.  the heal is too small to generally matter and the DDR difference is substantial.  mind you -- SR can cycle the t9 with unleash potential as well and is 'better' at it but nin has the unique advantage of having the endurance clicky within its own powerset to offset the crash (if timed well)... which otherwise needs to be done with ageless incarnate or blue candy.  nin is still a relatively strong set for scrappers.

 

also it goes underappreciated on scrapper/stalker HP pool but the SR resistance values scale with how low your HP is, so tankers become virtually immortal.

 

final note -- the better question to this is why are so fixated on nin vs SR when energy aura is just all around better than both (granted i havent personally played it after the latest nerfs/changes to energy aura). 

[Erratic1]

36 minutes ago, Sancerre said:

final note -- the better question to this is why are so fixated on nin vs SR when energy aura is just all around better than both (granted i havent personally played it after the latest nerfs/changes to energy aura). 

 

I have it on a Tanker (because if they were going to port it, I might as well). EA has always been one of my favorite sets. But I believe SR fans knock it too. 😁

[Ultimo]

1 hour ago, Sancerre said:

nin is generally weaker unless you lean into cycling the t9 with unleash potential.  the heal is too small to generally matter and the DDR difference is substantial.  mind you -- SR can cycle the t9 with unleash potential as well and is 'better' at it but nin has the unique advantage of having the endurance clicky within its own powerset to offset the crash (if timed well)... which otherwise needs to be done with ageless incarnate or blue candy.  nin is still a relatively strong set for scrappers.

 

also it goes underappreciated on scrapper/stalker HP pool but the SR resistance values scale with how low your HP is, so tankers become virtually immortal.

 

final note -- the better question to this is why are so fixated on nin vs SR when energy aura is just all around better than both (granted i havent personally played it after the latest nerfs/changes to energy aura). 

Energy Aura is too flashy... can't abide the effects.  I do have it on a different character though, and I've found it... somewhat lacking.  That character is in his 20s now, he might need to be reslotted.

[FupDup]

1 minute ago, Ultimo said:

Energy Aura is too flashy... can't abide the effects.  I do have it on a different character though, and I've found it... somewhat lacking.  That character is in his 20s now, he might need to be reslotted.

Energy Aura is kind of a late bloomer due to its typed defense setup, which wasn't helped by the recent nerfs to F/C defenses. Once it gets going, though, it's pretty good. 

[KaizenSoze]

My preference is Ninjitsu. No psi hole, endurance heal, stacking heal that provides good toxic resists. The DDR problem can be fixed with Ageless Radial.

 

Only problem is you really need set bonuses to get good defense.