Knockback, Stil a Dirty Word?

[Maelwys]

1 hour ago, Neiska said:

(I do want to add, i am pretty sure you fall into the normal adult category.)

 

 

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

Less bickering and more polite discussion of the topic, please.

 

To KB or not to KB, that is the question.

 

B.E.T.E.O.

[ivanhedgehog]

4 hours ago, Neiska said:

 

"Play as I want you too, or I won't heal or buff you." - real take my ball and go home energy there.

"Agree with me or I'll get spam sent to your inbox." - and you still think you have the moral high ground here?

 

PS - we clearly won't agree on this, and I don't take kindly to threats. So, we simply won't communicate further. Problem solved.

The healer/buffer has the right to use their powers as they choose.  its a 2 way street. when we accept the team invite, there is a certain agreement as to cooperation.

[Neiska]

10 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

The healer/buffer has the right to use their powers as they choose.  its a 2 way street. when we accept the team invite, there is a certain agreement as to cooperation.

 

I don't disagree. Both are free to play as they like. Neither one gets to control the other, which is my entire point.

 

Want to heal or not heal? Go right ahead.

Want to KB everything into the sun? Go ahead.

 

Neither is incorrect, wrong, or disallowed. Nobody is forcing anyone to play with anyone either. Don't like who you are teamed with? Make your own team, with your own goals and rules. Thats how we get some pretty awesome things like all tanker or all MM TFs and so on. 

 

But as far as "cooperation" goes, that is a two-way street as well. Demanding/expecting someone with KB to not use KB when it wasn't advertised they wouldn't be welcome when joining the team isn't "cooperation." If someone is so passionate about KB, then they should make it known when forming the team. And if someone (either one, the KB or the one complaining about that) leaves mid-mission because of that, I couldn't blame them either. 

 

Now, if the team was put together knowing beforehand KB was frowned upon, and then someone was doing it anyway, then ya they are a jerk. But call it a suspicion that isn't the case here.

[Erratic1]

56 minutes ago, Neiska said:

But as far as "cooperation" goes, that is a two-way street as well. Demanding/expecting someone with KB to not use KB when it wasn't advertised they wouldn't be welcome when joining the team isn't "cooperation."

 

Cooperation is doing what is best for the group overall. A group member getting pounded to death because control cannot be established on a scattered spawn is not cooperating to the end goal.

 

Does it really need to be stated, "We are trying to keep each other from getting killed unnecessarily?" Has the bar sunken so low?

 

When playing a pet class with buffs and heals, I prioritize the players above my pets because the pets are a collection of subroutines mediated by electron flow and the players are a bit more important (at least to me). Apparently however, in some people's world, one has to negotiate to prioritize the good of the group of players first.

 

 

Edited 17 hours ago by Erratic1

[PartyKake]

I'm trying to find out what BETEO stands for.

I tried an online search for it and it wants to tell me about Beto O'Roarke.

[dukedukes]

6 hours ago, Maelwys said:

For me it's a question of disruption. Combine a knockback user and a knockback hater together on a team and only one of those parties is disrupting the other and spoiling their fun. (And yet when the person being disrupted asks the disruptor to stop - which yes, would potentially disrupt their enjoyment - they're apparently the the bad guy because they were polite about it and asked first?)

The request is asking the person bugging them not to play how they want, it's not exactly a request to take kindly. If the offense is not preventing progress it can't be that serious, they should suck it up for the mission/TF and move on. It feels unanimous, to me at least, in COH telling others how to play isn't taken well, that's likely why knockback is fairly tolerated, even if it's annoying at times the experience won't last that long.

 

One time on a TF a few pulls in someone asked me to stop using Singularity on a grav because I use it to assist in herding. It's a major part of gravs set, I'm not going to give it up. I'd feel like I'm sitting on my hands for the next half hour or whatever it was. I'd rather leave than do that. This guy might have been a forum poster, actually 😅. What would the KB player need to do to appease the complainer? Not use aoe's or even ST attacks? I'm not sure it's reasonable to ask this of someone, if it's one particular attack, okay, but it's often many.

Edited 17 hours ago by dukedukes

[Maelwys]

4 minutes ago, dukedukes said:

What would the KB player need to do to appease the complainer? Not use aoe's or even ST attacks? I'm not sure it's reasonable to ask this of someone, if it's one particular attack, okay, but it's often many.

 

It's rather obvious: "Stop scattering mobs".

 

Position themselves better, Pick their targets more carefully, Slot KB>KD IOs, Wait for (or themselves use) an AoE Immobilize. Heck... even something as simple as jumping can often drastically cut down on scatter distance.

 

Again, I very much realise that KB can be used "for good" - to clump mobs rather than disperse them. However AoEs with a less-than-100% percentage chance to cause KB inevitably cause random scatter unless the caster is flying directly overhead or using KB>KD.

 

To flip it around: I don't think it's reasonable to expect multiple teammates to adjust their playstyle to suit a "bad" knockbacker. Single Target Ranged damage dealers might not overly care... but anyone with melee attacks, AoEs and "patch" effects can be negatively impacted by mob scatter. On many toons it can feel eerily similar to having to tolerate a disruptive co-worker who keeps sabotaging the group project.

[Maelwys]

36 minutes ago, PartyKake said:

I'm trying to find out what BETEO stands for.

I tried an online search for it and it wants to tell me about Beto O'Roarke.

 

[Neiska]

58 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

To flip it around: I don't think it's reasonable to expect multiple teammates to adjust their playstyle to suit a "bad" knockbacker. Single Target Ranged damage dealers might not overly care... but anyone with melee attacks, AoEs and "patch" effects can be negatively impacted by mob scatter. On many toons it can feel eerily similar to having to tolerate a disruptive co-worker who keeps sabotaging the group project.

 

Speaking only for myself, honestly? It depends on how they ask. Not just about KB, but about anything. If they politely "ask" (not demand, but ask) I am inclined to co-operate as long as they aren't causing problems on for me on my side. But if they are being just as annoying, like spamming chat, taking forever to talk to the contact for next mission, constantly running ahead and then griping when they splat and so on, I am far more likely to tell them to kiss me where the lord split me. To me thats just being polite.

 

But, as seen as examples in this very thread, there is very much an attitude of "PLAY MY WAY OR GTFO" mentality, which I would argue is a far larger pressing matter than knockback. I go by "know the pool you choose to swim in." If you choose to put together a team of random people, that's what you get. Key word "random." Some are good. Some are bad. Some are experienced. Some are just learning. Some just plain don't care and want to flex their pixels or speed to the end as fast as possible. If you want a team or TF to go exactly how you want it, to specifications, as fast as possible, mastery badge runs, yadda yadda yadda, then maybe you need to build a team of friends for it. You are rolling the dice when you want to play at that level with random people. "Most" know what they are doing, some will not. And I would call that the normal state of things.

 

And when I say "you" I don't mean you personally, I am speaking rhetorically here. But if someone is a controlling fun police jerk who is in a rush, well, that sounds very suspiciously like not my problem, and depending on their manners, I might be inclined to use the situation in a creative manner.

[Solarverse]

The only problem here is simple. One play style negatively impacts the other. So far, the only solution is to either kick (which god forbid if you do that, the rage will ensue promptly) or quit the team. Since I am almost always the leader of my teams...well, I'll be damned if I quit my own team because a KB player won't play nice even if asked politely. Do I have a right to ask that player to not knock back? I guess that depends on who you ask. So if I can't please the crowd and I can't be pleased, then what other options do I have? KB players rage if you kick them, they rage if you ask them to please stop and players on your team can and sometimes do quit the team if you don't kick them. It's a no win situation for the team leader.

 

This is why I prefer something...anything added to the game that allows the KB players to keep their KB, while at the same time it contributing to the team who does not like it in a positive way. This is exactly why I suggest a bouncing affect after a knock back. If you knock back towards a wall, the NPC bounces off the wall, takes damage from the impact and lands in a 3 to 5 foot radius of where the NPC was standing before knocked back. This keeps the NPC in the area in which he came which does not interfere with players nuking the area while at the same time allowing the KB player their fun. If not knocked back against a wall, then where ever that NPC lands is where the NPC lands, but no bonus damage. To me it's a win/win...if people could actually agree to it and if it could actually be coded.

[Neiska]

Disagree. And no amount of "but my gameplay" or "it makes me so mad" or "team dynamics" is going to be the moral high ground.

 

Still making a mountain out of a molehill here. Lots of things and playstyles "negatively impact" others, but there isn't a crusade to curtail any of them.

 

If I am on a tanker and someone does KB, I shrug and move onto the next.

If I am on my MM and someone does KB, I shrug and move onto the next.

If I am on my Crabber and someone does KB, I shrug and move onto the next.

 

Not once, in nearly 6 years of playing, has a KB been so ill fated, so ill timed, so game altering that it caused a mission to fail. Or a even a team wipe. The only time I remember people making a big fuss out of it, was on a mothership raid because someone had repel on in the bowl. That is literally the only time I have heard a public outcry in game about it. It is not nearly as life altering as people are making it out to be.

 

Oh no, someone died? That happens. A lot. And rarely is it KB's problem.

Oh no, a mission took a bit longer to complete? ...So what? Big deal. I would bet that more time was taken writing some of these responses here.

Oh no, someone is playing outside the team dynamic? ...again, happens all the time. A lot. And often.

 

Now, "should" people play together? Sure. And most of the time, they do. But you might think from how some people present it, this is reaching to present something people have a personal problem with as this supposedly critically important change that needs to be implemented immediately. "They need to do something!" - they already have. They offered a knockback to knockdown option. But that's what it is, an "option." If people are still using knockback, well, spoiler alert - they are within their right to do so. Just as you are within your right to play whatever you like as well. "But people can troll with it!" - again, many tools can be misused. Phasing/intangible, fold space, PFF to name a few.

 

The power itself isn't the problem. People are just using it in ways that annoy others to the extent that they want the fun police to swoop in and force change. People already have options. The fact that not everyone is taking them, should be a clear indicator of something. That not everyone agrees with the idea "KB is bad."

 

Now, you have options too. You can kick someone (if you are the leader), you can stamp your foot and refuse to heal or buff or hold aggro or whatever. But they have those same options too. And both have you have the option to... wait for it... ...simply not play together. And here is the real solution to my mind. Because not everyone is going to want to play in the same way, have the same goals, go the same speed, play at the same difficulty, etc etc etc. This whole KB is but one small part of a multi-sided puzzle. And people are making way too much of a fuss about it, when the solution is already within their own means - simply not team with powersets like Energy Blast. And if this is supposedly the massive widespread plague some are making it out to be, then I question if said persons are lazy when making their teams.

 

You don't want to see knockback powers? Don't team with the powersets that have them. Take the 3 minutes to put some thought into your LFG message, and to check peoples powersets, and poof - you will never ever have to see them again. Like magic. But instead of taking the time to do that, people would rather have the devs wave their magic wand and remove or change all KB. The problem with that is that this "fix" for your personal experience, is now taking away from others. When its within your own ability to remedy the situation, without negatively impacting others. And you can apply this to most parts of the game. "Don't like something? Don't do it/use it/take part in it."

[Forager]

On the rare occasion that I get one of those "U SHouLd CoNVerT kB 2 Kd" messages from a teammate, I like to go on strike for a couple spawns. I'm not petty in real life, so it's fun to play that way.

 

Usually it just takes a little longer to clear, but sometimes they really struggle. If I'm lucky, the team wipes and then I get to swoop in and save the day.

 

Nobody elsennotices or cares. The average player doesn't actually know what their teammates are doing, but I get a small bit of satisfaction.

[Octogoat]

10 hours ago, Maelwys said:

 

Don't forget to party on, dudes

[Ghost]

Gotta wonder how many people advocating for KB to be “negated” also have powers or a play style that annoys others.

How will it go when they are told “Stop using that power” or “Stop doing that!”

 

 

Edited 5 hours ago by Ghost

[tidge]

2 hours ago, Neiska said:

Not once, in nearly 6 years of playing, has a KB been so ill fated, so ill timed, so game altering that it caused a mission to fail. Or a even a team wipe. The only time I remember people making a big fuss out of it, was on a mothership raid because someone had repel on in the bowl. That is literally the only time I have heard a public outcry in game about it. It is not nearly as life altering as people are making it out to be.

 

I can't know of any instances of silent raging(*1) from teammates about KB, but the only time I remember anyone on a team publicly griping about a KB power was when I was on my Storm/Storm Defender... for much of the session I'd been using KB (mostly with some skill, I want to say I was doing as much grouping of enemies with Gale as anyone else on the team was doing with whatever other powers)... but the gripe came after a near-total wipe and after I had turned on Hurricane to establish an area of control to allow for rezzes. Sure enough, the first teammate who rezzed wanted me to immediately turn off Hurricane... which was IMO a real 'read the room' moment.

 

(*1) Personally? I don't rage against the scatter caused by something like Meteor, but I roll my eyes. Other players using their KB powers doesn't hurt me.

[ZemX]

Well, if this thread has accomplished nothing else, it has resoundingly answered the question of whether or not KB is still a "dirty word", I guess.

[dukedukes]

13 minutes ago, Ghost said:

Gotta wonder how many people advocating for KB to be “negated” also have powers or a play style that annoys others.

How will it go when they are told “Stop using that power” or “Stop doing that!”

 

The other poor gameplay decisions people can make greatly outnumber even the amount of times someone has a knockback power on the team, and often these decisions are just as impactful as a pbaoe kb. I've come to appreciate the chaos some teams can be, deleting mob packs in a couple seconds is really not that interesting of gameplay. I'd prefer at least one troublemaker in a team to mix things up.

[Solarverse]

4 hours ago, Neiska said:

Disagree. And no amount of "but my gameplay" or "it makes me so mad" or "team dynamics" is going to be the moral high ground.

 

 

 

Here is the problem with that...

It comes down to this, "You play your way, I'll play mine."

Except that when a KB player plays their way, I can't play my way. One always negates the other. KD players do not affect KB players at all. My targets fall flat on their butt which still leaves them grouped up so that your AoE still hits. Yours on the other hand is not anywhere near as courteous as the KB player's powers unless you play your KB characters tactfully. And let's be honest here, tactful KB players are not even close to being the norm.

Edited 3 hours ago by Solarverse

[Maelwys]

8 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

let's be honest here, tactful KB players are not even close to being the norm.

I think this point is worth highlighting.
Most of us here are capable of critical thinking and considering the other person's point of view; or at least (occasionally) reading and processing what another person wrote.
On PUG teams there is no such prerequisite.

 

 

4 hours ago, Neiska said:

Not once, in nearly 6 years of playing, has a KB been so ill fated, so ill timed, so game altering that it caused a mission to fail. Or a even a team wipe. The only time I remember people making a big fuss out of it, was on a mothership raid because someone had repel on in the bowl. That is literally the only time I have heard a public outcry in game about it. It is not nearly as life altering as people are making it out to be.

I did rather a lot of PUG Master-of-Statesman;s Task Forces back in the day.
Untamed Knockback and Repel affecting the Lord Recluse buff pillar repair crews (reviving previously destroyed pillars) was a royal PITA and caused several total failures.

To be fair, that's still by far a footnote in my CoX gameplay experience though. Most of the time I just get a little annoyed by having to spend more effort chasing down mobs in order to melee attack them (whilst I can just manually follow them or trigger a Combat Teleport; doing so can mess up my careful cone positioning so can be a slight PITA) or by having AoEs and patch powers affect less targets (which admittedly can frustrate me a bit more depending on how long those powers take to recharge. Fine, they're your problem now Captain Pinball - I'll run three mobs ahead...)

 

 

1 hour ago, ZemX said:

Well, if this thread has accomplished nothing else, it has resoundingly answered the question of whether or not KB is still a "dirty word", I guess.