No Point of Suggestion (at this rate)

[Ghost]

 

 

I said it before.  Make the suggestion and move on.  
Quit looking for praise from the masses.  Quit trying to defend your suggestion. 

There are people out there who simply do not like change.  They are not comfortable with it.  They don’t choose to be that way, it’s just how they are wired.

Have some understanding instead of belittling them.

Explain your suggestion fully, and start working on your next idea.

 

FFS there are just as many people complaining about ideas, as there are people complaining about those complaining.  
If you feel someone is constantly negative, put them on ignore.

 

Otherwise, you’re in here doing EXACTLY what you are complaining about - being negative (about people instead of suggestions), driving people away, and causing people to be too scared to speak up when they don’t actually like something or may have an improvement.

 

This is a forum.  It’s not a bubble.

 

Edited Wednesday at 08:45 PM by Ghost

[starro]

I agree with Ghost - post your suggestion and you move on.   Don't take things personal and take the high road.

I like the Suggestion Forum and make it a daily read but there's a lot of word salad that needs refinement or solutions looking for a problem.

Even an excellent and awesome well thought out suggestion can be hamstrung by old tech or very limited volunteer dev time. 

A terrible idea should be picked apart until it is improved or concluded.  God knows I have posted some real turds all the way back to LIVE forums.  

Should people stop?  No!  Keep them coming!

 

[battlewraith]

58 minutes ago, Ghost said:

There are people out there who simply do not like change.  They are not comfortable with it.  They don’t choose to be that way, it’s just how they are wired.

Have some understanding instead of belittling them.

Explain your suggestion fully, and start working on your next idea.

 

There are people out there who do like change. They like novelty. They like to spitball weird ideas. They don't choose to be that way, it's just how they're wired.

Have some understanding instead of branding them whiners, complainers, trolls, people beating a dead horse etc. 

 

The "do not like change people" act like fate tapped them on the shoulder to be a forum garbage cleanup crew. That turns others off. That's why we have these discussions.

 

37 minutes ago, starro said:

A terrible idea should be picked apart until it is improved or concluded.

 Nope. If you think an idea is terrible, leave it alone. As has been pointed out ad nauseam, the less response a post gets the faster it disappears. 

The people that demand suggestions be treated like engineering reports and pick everything apart don't really add anything, they just kill whatever fun other people may have had spitballing an idea. And drawing attention away from other ideas in the process.

 

I agree with the move on sentiment, but it's misapplied. If you see an idea you think is bad, move on. 

Weigh in on the suggestions that you actually like and actually want to help flesh out. 

[Oklahoman]

It's a forum, not a suggestions box. It's the only way to have a chance of getting a suggestion into the game. It's really easy to say just overlook everyone's responses, put certain people on ignore, etc. But if you care about the idea you are putting forward, you almost certainly care about how it is received by the community. Of course there are going to be people who disagree, and that's fine - if they can respectfully disagree. It turns out if you disagree with a suggestion, you don't even have to say anything about it at all - the likelihood of it getting into the game is small, and on the off chance it does you can unload your disgust in focused feedback. But restraint is not a quality of many commenters here, in my experience, and almost exclusively in this forum specifically.

 

What has been happening in this forum for a long time discourages people from sharing ideas. If we want to set up [email protected] and just have everyone send their ideas there, great. Send it and move on. But if we insist on maintaining the status quo, putting every idea up for public debate and ridicule, this is the result - people are going to say it's not worth it. And I love hearing ideas. I hope we decide to do something different.

 

4 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

I agree with the move on sentiment, but it's misapplied. If you see an idea you think is bad, move on. 

Weigh in on the suggestions that you actually like and actually want to help flesh out. 

 

Yeah, that! 👏

[Rudra]

48 minutes ago, Oklahoman said:

It's a forum, not a suggestions box. It's the only way to have a chance of getting a suggestion into the game. It's really easy to say just overlook everyone's responses, put certain people on ignore, etc. But if you care about the idea you are putting forward, you almost certainly care about how it is received by the community. Of course there are going to be people who disagree, and that's fine - if they can respectfully disagree. It turns out if you disagree with a suggestion, you don't even have to say anything about it at all - the likelihood of it getting into the game is small, and on the off chance it does you can unload your disgust in focused feedback. But restraint is not a quality of many commenters here, in my experience, and almost exclusively in this forum specifically.

 

What has been happening in this forum for a long time discourages people from sharing ideas. If we want to set up [email protected] and just have everyone send their ideas there, great. Send it and move on. But if we insist on maintaining the status quo, putting every idea up for public debate and ridicule, this is the result - people are going to say it's not worth it. And I love hearing ideas. I hope we decide to do something different.

 

 

Yeah, that! 👏

 

 

[Ghost]

52 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

 

 

I agree with the move on sentiment, but it's misapplied. If you see an idea you think is bad, move on. 

Weigh in on the suggestions that you actually like and actually want to help flesh out. 

 

Don’t say an idea is bad, move on.

That honestly sounds like you only want affirmation.

 

 

What discourages people is that they want to be praised. 
“such a wonderful idea!!”

Which is why they can’t move on after posting a suggestion. 
It’s also why some have felt the need to argue and reply to every post about their suggestion.

Them getting discouraged is self induced.

 

If they posted their suggestion, and then moved on to something else, what would they have to be discouraged about?

 

[Ghost]

54 minutes ago, Oklahoman said:

It's a forum, not a suggestions box. It's the only way to have a chance of getting a suggestion into the game. It's really easy to say just overlook everyone's responses, put certain people on ignore, etc. But if you care about the idea you are putting forward, you almost certainly care about how it is received by the community. Of course there are going to be people who disagree, and that's fine - if they can respectfully disagree. 

This is not true at all.

Ive seen people post a suggestion and ask what others think.  
Others have responded with a simple “I don’t like it”, and suddenly the OP turns into “Im being attacked!”

Hell, how many threads have there been with people wanting the confused and/or thumbs down emoji removed because of “hurt feelings”?

 

Some people are overly sensitive and perceive anything other than adulation for their idea, as being attacked.

It comes down to people only wanting to hear praise.  Well, that’s not how life or the internet works.

 

[JKCarrier]

2 hours ago, Oklahoman said:

What has been happening in this forum for a long time discourages people from sharing ideas.

 

Does it? It seems like this section of the forums gets a fair bit of use.
As has been pointed out, people disagreeing with and criticizing a suggestion actually keeps the thread visible longer. Which means it increases the chance that some dev will notice it. You're welcome.

[battlewraith]

17 minutes ago, Ghost said:

Don’t say an idea is bad, move on.

That honestly sounds like you only want affirmation.

 

The same can be said for the for the other side. The people that you described, that don't want change, absolutely want affirmation. 

They want to play armchair dev. They want to wow people with their arguments and their knowledge of the game and the lore and everything else. 

They want their friends to give them emojis for their good points and strike down the bad people with the bad emojis (lol).

They will go on for pages and pages arguing shit. 

 

But you expect the people that are hyped about some idea to just drop it and then walk away. What?

First of all, why would any normal person bother to do that? Secondly, you really can't see the blatant double standard you've got going on there?

 

18 minutes ago, Ghost said:

Some people are overly sensitive and perceive anything other than adulation for their idea, as being attacked.

It comes down to people only wanting to hear praise.  Well, that’s not how life or the internet works.

 

Some people are like that, but I don't think that's the gist of the complaint. 

 

1. Very few things are implemented.

2. Things that are implemented are done slowly.

3. There is a group camping in suggestions that think it's their dharma to pick apart ideas and evaluate those ideas by criteria that these people think are relevant.

 

The complaint is not "wah, you hurt my feelings." The complaint, I believe, is more that, given point 1 and 2, the insistences of the people in group 3 are unnecessary and a buzzkill. And yes, that's how life and the internet works. Wanna drive away engagement--fill a place with people hellbent on critiquing the shit out of everything. That's why you have people sneaking over to general discussions to make covert suggestions over there. They are trying to avoid the mentality frequently seen here.

[golstat2003]

For the record I could give a rats behind about affirmation or folks loving what I post. I will however forever say that I like or don’t like a suggestion, point out ways to improve it, point out problems with it or offer alternatives. This is a forum. Folks are going to respond to what you post.

 

if you don’t like it just put them in ignore.

 

Also, even if your idea is hated by all who post that does not mean that it may never be implemented. As others have pointed out, the Devs implement things that they  like or find interesting all the time.
 

Keep in mind they may take your idea an implement it in a way that is different but fits with the technical needs of the game. Nothing wrong with that.

 

And just because they don’t implement your idea in the next 365 days does not mean they never will.

 

 

Edited Thursday at 02:39 AM by golstat2003

[golstat2003]

Also I’m still waiting to hear how we get Hc more resources that won’t cause NCSoft to pull the license. And more resources ARE needed if folks want the devs to move faster (not just on suggestions, but on any large increase in the pace of changes to the game).

 

With the team we have we barely get two large updates a year. I can’t see changes happening any faster than that unless the funding for HC drastically increases.

Edited Thursday at 02:42 AM by golstat2003

[kelika2]

me shotgun method

[UltraAlt]

5 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

funding for HC drastically increases.

 

Funding has nothing to do with development.

More skilled volunteers is the only way that development will happen faster.

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

 

Funding has nothing to do with development.

More skilled volunteers is the only way that development will happen faster.

So in other words things will start to happen faster in about 20 to 30 years. 😝

 

For the record I’m fine with HC’s pace. There are a few folks in this thread and past ones who say they are not.

[tidge]

10 hours ago, Ghost said:

What discourages people is that they want to be praised. 

“such a wonderful idea!!”

Which is why they can’t move on after posting a suggestion. 
It’s also why some have felt the need to argue and reply to every post about their suggestion.

Them getting discouraged is self induced.

 

The difficulty some folks have about "moving on" from their own suggestion is sign of under-developed problem-solving/critical-thinking process. I know this sounds insulting, but critical thinking and problem-solving are skills that have to be developed. A common 'first step' in problem solving is something like 'spitballing', but it is literally just the tiniest of first steps, and despite what some management seminars might say there are some "bad ideas"... the subsequent steps of problem solving (which can happen internally, there is no prize for flooding the whiteboard with bad ideas) involving applying critical thinking to avoid burning mental energy on impractical and/or dispositive suggestions.

 

[Ghost]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

 

The difficulty some folks have about "moving on" from their own suggestion is sign of under-developed problem-solving/critical-thinking process. I know this sounds insulting, but critical thinking and problem-solving are skills that have to be developed. A common 'first step' in problem solving is something like 'spitballing', but it is literally just the tiniest of first steps, and despite what some management seminars might say there are some "bad ideas"... the subsequent steps of problem solving (which can happen internally, there is no prize for flooding the whiteboard with bad ideas) involving applying critical thinking to avoid burning mental energy on impractical and/or dispositive suggestions.

 

I get spitballing, and tweaking of ideas.

But engaging repeatedly with someone who has stated “its a bad idea” or, “no I don’t like this” is not problem solving.

If someone can’t post their idea and move on, at least they should learn not to engage with those who have already made up their mind.  
Unfortunately, they can’t.  Which leads to the back and forth/arguments.

 

In my little head, it goes back to that desire for approval from everyone.

 

[battlewraith]

2 hours ago, tidge said:

I know this sounds insulting, but critical thinking and problem-solving are skills that have to be developed.

 

It sounds insulting because it is. It's writing off people that don't agree with you by assuming they lack good reasoning skills. 

Meanwhile, Ghost is writing people off for being psychologically deficient. These responses are very expected at this point and emblematic of what is being pushed back against.

 

There are two batshit crazy notions being fronted here. The first is that ideation is this tiny thing that you briefly do before getting to the real meat of the issue, which is problem solving. Nonsense. Ideation is the most important part. If you don't have a good idea, and people that are passionate about that idea, everything that follow is a waste of time. The fallout from this emphasis on problem solving is a forum populated with mundane, seemingly doable tweaks. As Oklahoman rightly pointed out, something bold like the Labyrinth of Fog would never have passed muster here. 

 

The second thing is that people should just "move on". People are being faulted for pushing back against naysayers--probably because their weak, untrained minds can't handle "the critique". Actually, in reality nothing happens without follow through. Innovation and good ideas go nowhere unless you fight for them. And the fact that people may say they don't like an idea--means absolutely nothing unless you expect the entire audience for your game to be roughly the same sort of person. 

 

 

[tidge]

4 hours ago, tidge said:

The difficulty some folks have about "moving on" from their own suggestion is sign of under-developed problem-solving/critical-thinking process. I know this sounds insulting, but critical thinking and problem-solving are skills that have to be developed. A common 'first step' in problem solving is something like 'spitballing', but it is literally just the tiniest of first steps, and despite what some management seminars might say there are some "bad ideas"... 

 

54 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

It sounds insulting because it is. It's writing off people that don't agree with you by assuming they lack good reasoning skills. 

 

Many folks provide sufficient evidence of poor reasoning skills.

 

The "there are no bad ideas" statement often made in as part of a problem solving exercise is insincere politeness. ... most problem-solving seminars immediately go to something like an is/is-not analysis which weeds out the bad ideas (because those ideas "is not"). 

 

Specific to the engagement in this forum... many folks simply post "solutions" for things without even identifying a problem... It is mucvch more like "Hey, I just thought of *this*". The most polite guess as to what the problem *is* becomes "person who made proposal wants validation for their exceptional thinking"... which bears out when *any* negative criticism becomes seen as a personal attack (i.e. the other user not recognizing the exceptional thinking).

 

Folks who get hung up on their own ideas, and insist on defending them to the death, is not using good reasoning.

[Ghost]

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

 

 

 

The second thing is that people should just "move on". People are being faulted for pushing back against naysayers--probably because their weak, untrained minds can't handle "the critique". Actually, in reality nothing happens without follow through. Innovation and good ideas go nowhere unless you fight for them. And the fact that people may say they don't like an idea--means absolutely nothing unless you expect the entire audience for your game to be roughly the same sort of person. 

 

 

Certain people on here have proven they cannot handle critique, by crying that they’re “being attacked” at the slightest pushback.

 

If people want to fight for their suggestions, go right ahead.

With that fight can come criticism, and arguments - which I thought you were against?!?

 

 

 

 

 

[battlewraith]

38 minutes ago, tidge said:

Many folks provide sufficient evidence of poor reasoning skills.

A lot of folks are fixated on vertical thinking rather than lateral thinking, and expect everyone else to follow suit. That's the more salient issue imo.

 

46 minutes ago, tidge said:

most problem-solving seminars immediately go to something like an is/is-not analysis which weeds out the bad ideas (because those ideas "is not"). 

 

Lol because they are problem solving seminars. This is like saying "people who jump into a pool overwhelmingly get wet." Ideation is not problem solving. 

 

49 minutes ago, tidge said:

The most polite guess as to what the problem *is* becomes "person who made proposal wants validation for their exceptional thinking"... which bears out when *any* negative criticism becomes seen as a personal attack (i.e. the other user not recognizing the exceptional thinking).

 

So is there no exceptional thinking? Who decides what exceptional thing is? You? Rudra?

 

52 minutes ago, tidge said:

Folks who get hung up on their own ideas, and insist on defending them to the death, is not using good reasoning.

 

Lol like Darwin. Galileo. Socrates? Or pretty much anyone that routinely argues on the forums including you?

[battlewraith]

5 minutes ago, Ghost said:

With that fight can come criticism, and arguments - which I thought you were against?!?

I thought you were against it. Didn't you just spend the last couple pages insisting that people move on?

 

WHO ARE YOU???

[GM Crumpet]

I've said it before over the years, but it's worth repeating. some things that seem to be so simple are an absolute nightmare to implement. The code is twisted and complicated, and so many times a minor change will result in major problems. "I only changed the colour of those trees, why did city hall vanish?" kind of problems. There are a lot of suggestions that have been implemented, but we are a volunteer group of people doing stuff in our spare time. One dev might be passionate about costume parts, another might be brilliant at stories. Another might love redoing zones. We gain devs, we lose devs. If a particular suggestion resonates and they go "I love that idea" they will look into it and decide if it's even possible. Then how much work is needed to implement. Then that dev leaves because real life gets in the way and it's another project on the back burner.

 

To be honest I'm always in awe when a new page comes out for the sheer amount of work a small group of people have been able to pull together. Most legacy games are frozen in amber. Maybe some bugs are fixed if you are lucky, but there are few that have the level of skill and dedication that we do.

 

I love reading peoples suggestions, and a lot of them are interesting and clever. But we aren't a multi million dollar enterprise with unlimited resources and hundreds of staff to spend months on implementing ideas. We are a volunteer group that does what we can because of the love we have for the game and the willingness to spend a lot of our free time working on something that is really time intensive. 

[tidge]

56 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

Lol like Darwin. Galileo. Socrates? 

 

They laughed at Einstein! They laughed at Galileo! They laughed at Bozo the Clown!

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

17 hours ago, Oklahoman said:

It's the only way to have a chance of getting a suggestion into the game.

 

Sorry to be pedantic, but I can't help myself.  It is not the only way.  You can potentially become a dev yourself and work on the things you want to see and you could also just get lucky and have something you wanted added by a like minded Dev.  You can also seek to join Closed Beta and influence things in progress.

 

Regarding my prior post: As expected, no dev volunteered to put forth a suggestion into the suggestion forum.  As a policy, they do not discuss work-in-progress publicly until it is in open beta and only selectively before that.  One dev did, however, share a story.  When the game was live, they made a suggestion to have Granite Armor Customization and actually got Back Alley Brawler to respond that it was never going to happen, which made them sad.  Years later, when that player joined the team, they saw a bunch of code where BaBs and Co. tried to make it work, but couldn't.  This player turned Dev tried to do it themselves and came to the same conclusion -- it can't be done well.

 

The devs are like the rest of us -- people who love to play this superhero game.  They came to the job with their own ideas and talents and work on things that interest them and that they think would be great additions to the game.  They do visit the forums and Discord, some more than others, and are aware of suggestions players make.  It's not practical for them to respond to suggestions, so they don't.  They have lives beyond the game and spend their spare time either playing the game or working on it.  If they had to explain why each individual idea was or was not feasible they'd have little time for anything else.  So instead you are stuck with me and the other GMs until something goes into open beta when the devs are more likely to chime in to the forums and occasionally give us a write up of their concept and process.

 

So basically:

 

Some suggestions are impossible to accomplish with the existing code.

Some suggestions are possible, but impractical due to resources.  It can take hundreds and sometimes thousands of dev-hours to take an idea through the iteration process and ultimately into the game.

Some suggestions are possible, but too niche -- it may make the suggester happy but few others.

Some suggestions are possible, but no one on the team is currently interested in working on it.  Someone may work on it later as a dev finishes something in progress or a new dev who is passionate about that suggestion comes on the team.

Some suggestions are currently being worked on but it may take awhile to make it into the game, or they might find that it doesn't make the cut after trying.

And frankly, some suggestions are just bad, whether they are possible or not.

 

With regard to the OP -- whether there is no point to make suggestions -- Players are free and encouraged to make suggestions and defend them, if they wish, and others are also free to critique those suggestions, as long as everyone does it respectfully.   However, just because you are free to suggest, defend, and critique, we could all do a better job of choosing whether to do so and how often to do so.   

 

Whether it is 10%, 1%, or .1% there is a chance that your suggestion may make it into the game.  If you feel that the odds are too low you are also free to not post your suggestion. 

 

Maybe it's just me, but I like hearing suggestions and SOME of the debate.

 

ALSO: Stay tuned.  I have it on good authority that many QOL additions that have been requested by players over the years may make it in the next Issue!

 

 

[Ghost]

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

I thought you were against it. Didn't you just spend the last couple pages insisting that people move on?

 

WHO ARE YOU???

Lol That was my very well thought out QOL suggestion, that wouldn’t take up any of the Devs time or resources, to stop the arguing.

But hey, if people wanna continue defending their ideas, more power to em.  Just stop acting surprised when people voice their concerns or it turns into an argument.