Kheldians need some love and not reliant on Changeling to be competitive

[Zormico]

Right now, Changeling play-style makes Kheldians do crazy damage because it cancels animation time — basically an exploit. Without it, they’re weaker than every other AT, which is probably why they’re the least played archetype in CoH. Their current Inherent bonus does basically nothing when soloing and often underwhelms in groups unless you happen to have just the right mix of ATs.

 

A few ideas to make them competitive without relying on exploits:

1. Damage boosts – Each form could get slightly higher base damage or scaling so they actually hit like they’re supposed to. Nova could be treated more like a pseudo-blaster, and Dwarf could remain the Tank/Brute melee form.

2. Animation tweaks –  Form swaps could also be smoother, since switching forms right now feels clunky and slows down combat when not running the changeling animation cancelling binds.

3. Inherent – Make the Inherent bonus actually matter solo and give it some meaningful impact in, rewarding form swaps or combos. For example, swapping out of Nova could grant a short damage boost, or swapping from Dwarf could provide brief mez protection.

 

Final note: whether Changeling is patched or not, form changing shouldn’t be a huge explosion every time — it’s jarring and unnecessary every swap.

 

Overall, Kheldians should feel flexible and fun, not just weak because they’re a jack-of-all-trades.

[golstat2003]

3 hours ago, Zormico said:

Right now, Changeling play-style makes Kheldians do crazy damage because it cancels animation time — basically an exploit. Without it, they’re weaker than every other AT, which is probably why they’re the least played archetype in CoH. Their current Inherent bonus does basically nothing when soloing and often underwhelms in groups unless you happen to have just the right mix of ATs.

 

A few ideas to make them competitive without relying on exploits:

1. Damage boosts – Each form could get slightly higher base damage or scaling so they actually hit like they’re supposed to. Nova could be treated more like a pseudo-blaster, and Dwarf could remain the Tank/Brute melee form.

2. Animation tweaks –  Form swaps could also be smoother, since switching forms right now feels clunky and slows down combat when not running the changeling animation cancelling binds.

3. Inherent – Make the Inherent bonus actually matter solo and give it some meaningful impact in, rewarding form swaps or combos. For example, swapping out of Nova could grant a short damage boost, or swapping from Dwarf could provide brief mez protection.

 

Final note: whether Changeling is patched or not, form changing shouldn’t be a huge explosion every time — it’s jarring and unnecessary every swap.

 

Overall, Kheldians should feel flexible and fun, not just weak because they’re a jack-of-all-trades.

 

Disagree on the bolded. I like that it's large every time. It adds to the idea that something epic is happening with the alien enemies are facing.

 

With that said a costume option to TURN OFF the explosion, should be made available in the costume creator. Other that that I have no issues with the other suggestions.

 

The devs have said (in and out of beta) that they are working on Kheldians. However, it will probably be a while before we see the fruits of that labor, as it's a complicated AT to make tweaks for.

[Zormico]

5 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

 

Disagree on the bolded. I like that it's large every time. It adds to the idea that something epic is happening with the alien enemies are facing.

 

With that said a costume option to TURN OFF the explosion, should be made available in the costume creator. Other that that I have no issues with the other suggestions.

 

The devs have said (in and out of beta) that they are working on Kheldians. However, it will probably be a while before we see the fruits of that labor, as it's a complicated AT to make tweaks for.

Costume option would be great with me,  even when not running as a changeling I still swap forms often.

[Steampunkette]

1) Increase PB/WS Damage Cap to 400% an provide some debuff resistance

This would go a -long- way toward making them more valuable on teams in general. And having some debuff resistance baked into their resistance toggles would make humanforming a PB a hell of a lot more attractive in general and give multiform PBs a reason to drop into humanform for longer than it takes to hit build up and a couple animation-canceled attacks.

 

2) Collapse attacks across forms.

Bolt, Blast, Scatter, and Detonation, as well as Strike, Smite, and Flare (same with Emanation and such over on WS) could all be folded down into the base class so that you wind up less slot-starved with the form-changes and are able to use the forms as Scalar Boosts rather than having separate powers tied to the form-shifts. Yes. This would make the form-swap a little less useful out of the box since you'd still need to purchase the attacks that form can use as a separate thing... 

 

But that would make Dual-Form, and Tri-Form Kheldians a lot stronger overall without increasing the values of individual powers or anything like that, and would make it a lot easier to bounce between forms without feeling like you're underslotted, everywhere. It would also nerf the hell out of Changeling Builds since you'd be using the same attacks in humanform, nova, and dwarf, even with animation canceling.

 

 

 

 

[ThatGuyCDude]

3 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

2) Collapse attacks across forms.

Bolt, Blast, Scatter, and Detonation, as well as Strike, Smite, and Flare (same with Emanation and such over on WS) could all be folded down into the base class so that you wind up less slot-starved with the form-changes and are able to use the forms as Scalar Boosts rather than having separate powers tied to the form-shifts. Yes. This would make the form-swap a little less useful out of the box since you'd still need to purchase the attacks that form can use as a separate thing... 

With regards to this, I've been picturing a Scrapper crit sort of thing.  You use the Eyebeam attack.  It hits once if you're in Dwarf form, twice if you're in Human form, and three times if you're in Nova form.  Then you use the overhand strike attack.  *It* hits once if you're in Nova form, twice if you're in Human form, and three times if you're in Dwarf form.  Yeah, you lose out on being able to slot the attack differently when you're in one form or the other, but you'd also benefit from not being as enhancement-slot starved and it'd be a BIG buff to Human form Khelds.

[tidge]

This topis is essentially beyond the scope of this forum. We've had a lot of discussion in this thread:

 

 

There is something fundamental standing in the way of addressing the "changeling exploit": The Kheldians are intended to change forms(*1), so hitting the exploit would mean also hitting the players that don't use the exploit(*2).  Almost incidental to the exploit is this: with the exploit, Kheldians don't really outperform other ATs, certainly not across all levels of content. Any player that get Kheldians to a point where they feel like they are 'overperforming' is capable of building a different AT to do better than their changeling Kheldian.

 

(*1) Players are not obligated to multi-form, but that *is* the core design of the AT(s).

 

(*2) I don't use the changeling exploit on my Khelds, but I do swap forms hella fast at times.

[Six-Six]

If you suck at playing music, don't blame the instrument.

[Zormico]

3 hours ago, tidge said:

This topis is essentially beyond the scope of this forum. We've had a lot of discussion in this thread:

 

 

There is something fundamental standing in the way of addressing the "changeling exploit": The Kheldians are intended to change forms(*1), so hitting the exploit would mean also hitting the players that don't use the exploit(*2).  Almost incidental to the exploit is this: with the exploit, Kheldians don't really outperform other ATs, certainly not across all levels of content. Any player that get Kheldians to a point where they feel like they are 'overperforming' is capable of building a different AT to do better than their changeling Kheldian.

 

(*1) Players are not obligated to multi-form, but that *is* the core design of the AT(s).

 

(*2) I don't use the changeling exploit on my Khelds, but I do swap forms hella fast at times.

Yeah, I’ve read through that thread and there’s a lot of good info in it. I just figured posting something here in Suggestions & Feedback might help get a bit more visibility. I’m honestly not sure what areas the devs keep an eye on the most, but more light on the subject can’t hurt.

 

Part of why I wanted to bring it up here is that it sometimes feels like Kheldians are stuck in a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation — maybe they haven’t gotten a real revamp because they’re not played much, but they’re probably not played much because they’ve never gotten that much-needed revamp.

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, Zormico said:

Yeah, I’ve read through that thread and there’s a lot of good info in it. I just figured posting something here in Suggestions & Feedback might help get a bit more visibility. I’m honestly not sure what areas the devs keep an eye on the most, but more light on the subject can’t hurt.

 

Part of why I wanted to bring it up here is that it sometimes feels like Kheldians are stuck in a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation — maybe they haven’t gotten a real revamp because they’re not played much, but they’re probably not played much because they’ve never gotten that much-needed revamp.

 

More likely it's the complexity of their code and sphagetti string that makes up nearly part of this game.

[tidge]

1 hour ago, Zormico said:

Yeah, I’ve read through that thread and there’s a lot of good info in it. I just figured posting something here in Suggestions & Feedback might help get a bit more visibility. I’m honestly not sure what areas the devs keep an eye on the most, but more light on the subject can’t hurt.

 

Part of why I wanted to bring it up here is that it sometimes feels like Kheldians are stuck in a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation — maybe they haven’t gotten a real revamp because they’re not played much, but they’re probably not played much because they’ve never gotten that much-needed revamp.

 

Fair enough. I personally don't favor the explanation that "Khelds aren't played" (as either the chicken or egg). They have a unique set of arcs to do, and they can be excellent performers... I just don't think they quite live up to the "MFing Warshade" reputation from Live. Like a lot of ATs and combos, players can make them shine... but for me, there are relatively few ways to make Kheldians really excel, as opposed to all the potential variety from the other ATs (even VEATs).

 

For me: even with tweaks, they'd still be in a very similar place after any 'most likely' revamp. Maybe we'd 'blast better' in Nova Form about 30? Who knows?

[macskull]

9 hours ago, Six-Six said:

If you suck at playing music, don't blame the instrument.

On the other hand, if you're a good musician you know that the instrument a grade school student uses and the instrument a professional uses aren't the same.

[Zormico]

10 hours ago, Six-Six said:

If you suck at playing music, don't blame the instrument.

Look, I’m trying to play the piano here, not the organ. Sure, I can pull off changeling, but needing a convoluted keybinding setup and a flurry of inputs just to stay competitive is kind of the point — it shouldn’t take a concert organist’s fingerwork to make the AT perform. I’m not asking for it to be the Mozart of ATs, just for it to do better than maxing out at a third grader’s recorder recital if you don't changeling.

[Six-Six]

2 hours ago, macskull said:

On the other hand, if you're a good musician you know that the instrument a grade school student uses and the instrument a professional uses aren't the same.

No doubt about it. Yet, I've seen pro guitarists belt out wild licks on Hello Kitty guitars and drum kits. But if you give me a million-dollar Stradivarius, the only thing I can muster would be a dying goat even if my life depended on it. (yes, I'm one of the people that suck). 

I tried playing Khelds. I have a PB and a Warshade. Both are only human only. My feeble brain can't grasp the changeling function of it. But I found them fun enough to roll another PB.

 

1 hour ago, Zormico said:

Look, I’m trying to play the piano here, not the organ. Sure, I can pull off changeling, but needing a convoluted keybinding setup and a flurry of inputs just to stay competitive is kind of the point — it shouldn’t take a concert organist’s fingerwork to make the AT perform. I’m not asking for it to be the Mozart of ATs, just for it to do better than maxing out at a third grader’s recorder recital if you don't changeling.

I'm just saying it is what it is. It's far from perfect, but it's not THAT screwed up. I see enough people play it, even came across a regular all-kheld TF (and maybe an SG... can't remember) some time ago. I must've cost me a hefty testicle on respec recipes just to get the hang of khelds. And I still can't play changeling. But I've seen people do wonders with them. So it is possible in its current state.

In hindsight, my comment about sucking and musical instruments was a bit uncalled for. I blame hormones.

So, back to being a quasi-adult...
 

Changeling play-style makes Kheldians do crazy damage because it cancels animation time — basically an exploit.

Missed out on this because I'm not skilled enough to play the changeling.

Without it, they’re weaker than every other AT,
I don't agree. My human only khelds can hold their own against +4 EBs, and AVs... with some fancy footwork... and maybe a Shivan now and then. I've played other ATs that are subjectively "weaker"

Their current Inherent bonus does basically nothing when soloing and often underwhelms in groups unless you happen to have just the right mix of ATs.
I agree. I solo play like 98% of the time, so the inherent does nothing for me. However, other inherents aren't that great either. Sentinels' kinda suck as well. I think the best inherent is the Corruptor Scourge and Troller's Containment. That said, the inherent is not something that factors highly for me, whatever the AT I play.

 

Damage boosts – Each form could get slightly higher base damage or scaling so they actually hit like they’re supposed to. Nova could be treated more like a pseudo-blaster, and Dwarf could remain the Tank/Brute melee form.
I think the Dwarf is fine where it's at. Again, I don't play changeling, but my understanding is the Dwarf is the Tank form. Its damage is expectedly lower than human in exchange for res/def, healing and taunt. The Nova is the one that could use a bump over its human form. as it is now, there is no benefit from changing to Nova form if you've shored up your resistances in human form. Having a damage base (human) + multiplier (Nova) and/or handicap (Dwarf) could/should solve the slotting problem -- which I think is a bigger concern than tweaking damage. So, you slot IOs in Bolt, Blast, Scatter, Detonation and the multiplier will take care of your Nova form. Same goes for Human and Dwarf punches. At least going Dwarf, you get access to powers and resistances you don't get as a human, so it's understandable that the punches hit a little less.

 

Animation tweaks –  Form swaps could also be smoother, since switching forms right now feels clunky and slows down combat when not running the changeling animation cancelling binds.
I think this is baked into the engine, as inferred in Cure Lost and Infect Sick RIPD missions. But worth a try. Again, I don't play changeling, so while this doesn't apply to me now, it might when I get the nerve to try them. I did however create a Psi/Fire Blaster that plays like a changeling-- "human form" has the primaries powers then costume-change + tray change macro button to "demon form" that uses secondaries. the animation takes some time to run its course.

 

Inherent – Make the Inherent bonus actually matter solo and give it some meaningful impact in, rewarding form swaps or combos. For example, swapping out of Nova could grant a short damage boost, or swapping from Dwarf could provide brief mez protection.
Short answer is I don't agree enough to care. I don't want to get into this since this smells like a can of worms. If the khelds get an inherent fix, then the other ATs should as well. I imagine the amount of work and thinking that will go into something like that is not validated by the QoL it will bring to the game.

...and I ran out of steam. I had another point I wanted to make, but I forgot it. ADHD, Autism, old age... something. So... sorry for the snark, and I sincerely hope Khelds get better... at least better than me trying to play a musical instrument.

 

[Ukase]

Some call this changeling thing an exploit. I would call it a feature. 


 

[Steampunkette]

Changeling play requires using exploits in the way the game's animation system functions to ignore the standard damage formulas and animation times that the game is based around in order to maximize your damage potential.

 

It's not "Playing an instrument well". It's sneakily replacing every piece on your side of the chessboard except your King with a Queen and crowing about your ELO of 2800.

 

You are fundamentally breaking the rules of the game system for an advantage.

[Glacier Peak]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

Some call this changeling thing an exploit. I would call it a feature. 

If the same effect from using animation canceling was applied to other Archetypes, would you then consider an exploit? 

[MTeague]

Honestly, I would be happy as a clam if a version of Luminous/Umbral blasts, and Luminous/Umbral aura (minus all shapeshifting) were made available to Sentinels. That's really what I want out of a Humanform Peacebringer anyway. A Sentinel, with a pair of powersets that I think look awesome. I was never all that taken with the shapeshifting anyway.

[macskull]

2 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

Changeling play requires using exploits in the way the game's animation system functions to ignore the standard damage formulas and animation times that the game is based around in order to maximize your damage potential.

 

It's not "Playing an instrument well". It's sneakily replacing every piece on your side of the chessboard except your King with a Queen and crowing about your ELO of 2800.

 

You are fundamentally breaking the rules of the game system for an advantage.

This argument may be technically true (except the bit about standard damage formula since all Kheld powers still follow that), but it holds no merit because the devs:

• Are aware of the existence of changeling gameplay
• Explicitly left an exception for Kheldians in the code that fixed similar behavior for every other AT because they acknowledge Kheldians need a buff

 

At the end of the day, if an archetype that is at least somewhat supposed to be focused around dealing damage needs to rely on an exploit to achieve performance comparable to a mediocre Scrapper, there’s a problem with that archetype.

Edited 4 hours ago by macskull

[MTeague]

36 minutes ago, macskull said:

At the end of the day, if an archetype that is at least somewhat supposed to be focused around dealing damage needs to rely on an exploit to achieve performance comparable to a mediocre Scrapper, there’s a problem with that archetype.

Hence the "Kheldians need some love and not be reliant on changeling to be competitive" title of this thread. 

I don't think anyone is saying "suppress changeling exploit and give them nothing".  

 

But if the reason the exploit was left in place was to allow degrees of performance, then the long-term solution is boost performance to where the exploit is no longer necessary at all, and then close that exploit. I have reasonable faith the HC devs will not act until they believe they can address both sides of the equation, in a manner they believe produces an end product they can stand proud of.

[macskull]

4 minutes ago, MTeague said:

Hence the "Kheldians need some love and not be reliant on changeling to be competitive" title of this thread. 

I don't think anyone is saying "suppress changeling exploit and give them nothing".  

 

But if the reason the exploit was left in place was to allow degrees of performance, then the long-term solution is boost performance to where the exploit is no longer necessary at all, and then close that exploit. I have reasonable faith the HC devs will not act until they believe they can address both sides of the equation, in a manner they believe produces an end product they can stand proud of.

We’re on the same side here - they’ve already said they’re going to let changeling stick around until they get around to doing a balance pass on the ATs. Where my point of view differs is what the end result is going to be. Based on my observations of how the powers team has handed AT and powerset reworks over the last six years I think whatever Kheldian changes they ultimately end up making will result in peak performance being lower than it is now.

[golstat2003]

37 minutes ago, macskull said:

We’re on the same side here - they’ve already said they’re going to let changeling stick around until they get around to doing a balance pass on the ATs. Where my point of view differs is what the end result is going to be. Based on my observations of how the powers team has handed AT and powerset reworks over the last six years I think whatever Kheldian changes they ultimately end up making will result in peak performance being lower than it is now.

 

Probably true.

 

But having to use an exploit to get peak performance means there are serious issues with that AT. To the point that many say it's unplayable (not me, but I've heard this from non COH vets).

 

The only thing we can do is continue to advocate for the AT in Closed and Open beta (when the revamp/update/whatever they call it, hits the test servers).

 

EDIT: I've farmed with Khelds . . . just not at +4/x8. I also play them from time to time and do agree that they are a jack of all trades, master of none. I've never tried human, as the few times I tried I found it utterly annoying to not have Dwarf and Nova, as the AT was meant to. (But get why some folks go this route). 

 

They need a few tweaks as far as I'm concerned and nothing too drastic. The devs and others may disagree (others have asked for a full revamp).

 

Changeling I just don't care about. I could never get into it.

Edited 2 hours ago by golstat2003
Clarification on my thoughts of Kheld performance, and typos..

[macskull]

6 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

The only thing we can do is continue to advocate for the AT in Closed and Open beta (when the revamp/update/whatever the call it hits).

I realize there’s only so much I can do as a tester and if the powers team has made up their minds about how they want things to work I’m basically just arguing with a brick wall, especially when many good ideas get completely dismissed out of hand. When you have a lead powers dev whose not-that-uncommon response to constructive criticism is “okay we’ll just revert the entire branch” you kind of just learn to shrug and move on.

 

I’d hope any potential Kheldian buffs significantly bring up the performance floor while not affecting the ceiling, but past experiences with outlier powers show they tend to get nerfed and the rest of the changes don’t do enough to make up for the loss.