More Perception in Epics

[CoeruleumBlue]

I still think it's pretty weird you can make a character who's Psi/Psi/Psi or Dark/Dark/Dark and not get a single +Perception booster from any of your powers. Yes there's Rectified Reticle and Tactics, but that won't get you to max perception, even using Tactics, Rectified Reticle, and Warp won't get you to max perception unless you have a primary, secondary, or epic pool power with +Perception.

 

Can't some of the psi and dark armors in Epic Pools and Patron Pools come with it? Right now the only one that has it is like Mace Mastery for Controller/Dominator and one that's not available to those classes has one on of all things Ice Mastery, but the Psionic Mastery and Dark Mastery for those pools doesn't have it even though most armors in psionic and dark sets do come with it. It's super weird right now that the only way Dominator can get max perception at all is Mace Mastery and Controller can do /Time as a secondary, but that's widely considered not to work super well with sets like Mind or Dark that involve a lot of clicking, and sets such as /Empathy and /Pain that are largely painted as the psychic set don't come with it. /Rad doesn't have a stealth debuff either which I would expect it to have at least even if putting +Perception on any of the powers might feel like overkill...

 

So please just put more perception in epics, thanks! It's really easy to build around having max stealth: the entire class of Stalkers gets it and some control, support, and armor sets also have it, even though PvP stealth being capped low on all non-Stalkers seems like kind of BS. But it's really hard to build around having max perception to match that max stealth.  Thanks! 

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, CoeruleumBlue said:

I still think it's pretty weird you can make a character who's Psi/Psi/Psi or Dark/Dark/Dark and not get a single +Perception booster from any of your powers. Yes there's Rectified Reticle and Tactics, but that won't get you to max perception, even using Tactics, Rectified Reticle, and Warp won't get you to max perception unless you have a primary, secondary, or epic pool power with +Perception.

Dark/Dark/Dark +Perception:

Brute: Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Dark Mastery -> Dark Armor: Cloak of Darkness

Scrapper: Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Dark Mastery -> Dark Armor: Cloak of Darkness

Sentinel: Dark Blast/Dark Armor/Dark Mastery -> Dark Armor: Cloak of Darkness

Stalker: Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Dark Mastery -> Dark Armor: Shadow Dweller

Tanker: Dark Armor/Dark Melee/Dark Mastery -> Dark Armor: Cloak of Darkness

 

Psi/Psi/Psi +Perception:

Brute: Psionic Melee/Psionic Armor/Psionic Mastery -> Psionic Armor: Precognition

Scrapper: Psionic Melee/Psionic Armor/Psionic Mastery -> Psionic Armor: Precognition

Sentinel: Psychic Blast/Psionic Armor/Psionic Mastery -> Psionic Armor: Precognition

Stalker: Psionic Melee/Psionic Armor/Psionic Mastery -> Psionic Armor: Precognition

Tanker: Psionic Armor/Psionic Melee/Psionic Mastery -> Psionic Armor: Precognition

 

Edit: Dumb question: why the need to get to max Perception? It doesn't take much to laugh at mob attempts to blind you or see invisible enemies at a distance well before they ever see you.

 

(Edit again: Also, you can craft a Perception boost at any Empowerment Station (doesn't matter if tier I, II, or III) that boosts your Perception by 100 ft. for 90 minutes.)

 

Edited Friday at 06:39 AM by Rudra

[Doomguide2005]

Is this a PvP issue for you?  Otherwise as Rudra mentions mob stealth is mostly non-existent if you have any sort of +perception, you don't need anywhere near max perception to nullify pretty much any foe using stealth in this game even redside

[CoeruleumBlue]

19 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Is this a PvP issue for you?  Otherwise as Rudra mentions mob stealth is mostly non-existent if you have any sort of +perception, you don't need anywhere near max perception to nullify pretty much any foe using stealth in this game even redside

 

There are a couple of not often encountered enemies in PvE that can give you trouble, but still, why are PvE and PvP stats not the same in the first place? Breaks my immersion in both cases. Other people have commented on this. I'm willing to work on it personally. It's the same problem with sentinels, I don't want to look at the game like "if we just pretend..." because the game is supposed to take away the pretending for you. Everything should be properly balanced and I'm willing to help with that. 

[Doomguide2005]

Because PvP under PvE rules was an ugly thing ... unless you like Malta stuns you'd have found mez, as an example, far more problematic I suspect.  Balance is in my opinion an odd thing to call what most people mean by it.  A teeter totter with 1 end near the ground and the other end high in the air is perfectly 'balanced' if it doesn't change without external effort.  All things homogenous also sounds boring to me at least.  The only thing I'm sure of is pretty much no one wants it either balanced in the fashion I mentioned or totally homogenous.

[Rudra]

Oh yeah, uhm....

18 hours ago, CoeruleumBlue said:

It's really easy to build around having max stealth:

Wasn't stealth changed to not stack any longer except for a very few specific cases?

[Doomguide2005]

@Rudra@CoeruleumBlue

 

Stealth and Perception - Unofficial Homecoming Wiki

Near the end of the article are notes about the recent changes and a link to the patch notes about the changes.  More or less things like Steamy Mist no longer stack with similar auras but can stack with other forms of stealth such as Grant Invisibility and the empowerment buff as I understand things. 

[Rudra]

40 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

@Rudra@CoeruleumBlue

 

Stealth and Perception - Unofficial Homecoming Wiki

Near the end of the article are notes about the recent changes and a link to the patch notes about the changes.  More or less things like Steamy Mist no longer stack with similar auras but can stack with other forms of stealth such as Grant Invisibility and the empowerment buff as I understand things. 

So yes, stealth powers now only stack with the IO, Grant/Group Invisibility, and maybe Labyrinth of Fog's Font of Malevolence. Thanks.

[Psyonico]

It's actually really hard to get max stealth unless you are either illusion control or arsenal control, both of which have a power that will take you to the stealth cap (200 ft).

 

There are lots of ways to get "effectively invisible" which is just 55 ft of stealth.   At 55 feet, most mobs won't notice you because they have 54 feet of perception.   Some (like rikti drones and rularuu watchers) completely ignore stealth, and even at the 200 ft cap will see you.

 

as for more ways to increase perception,  meh.  You aren't limited in what you can target with current perception unless you get debuffed, which is rare for mobs.  Most powerset combos have access to build up, aim, or something similar, which can take the rectified reticle proc.   That alone will solve all problems unless you are facing multiple stacks of -perception (which is only available in posi 1 if you have multiple toons who can have -perception powers, or AE).  Similarly, all characters have access to use the Warp IO in any of 3 teleport powers, or could take tactics.  Finally, yellow inspirations increase perception. 

 

Really, the only reason I see to make perception increases more common is RP, which is a weird thing to balance powers around. 

[CoeruleumBlue]

5 hours ago, Psyonico said:

It's actually really hard to get max stealth unless you are either illusion control or arsenal control, both of which have a power that will take you to the stealth cap (200 ft).

 

There are lots of ways to get "effectively invisible" which is just 55 ft of stealth.   At 55 feet, most mobs won't notice you because they have 54 feet of perception.   Some (like rikti drones and rularuu watchers) completely ignore stealth, and even at the 200 ft cap will see you.

 

as for more ways to increase perception,  meh.  You aren't limited in what you can target with current perception unless you get debuffed, which is rare for mobs.  Most powerset combos have access to build up, aim, or something similar, which can take the rectified reticle proc.   That alone will solve all problems unless you are facing multiple stacks of -perception (which is only available in posi 1 if you have multiple toons who can have -perception powers, or AE).  Similarly, all characters have access to use the Warp IO in any of 3 teleport powers, or could take tactics.  Finally, yellow inspirations increase perception. 

 

Really, the only reason I see to make perception increases more common is RP, which is a weird thing to balance powers around. 

 

RP, PvP, and the few enemies like Posi or Siren or maybe Arachnos that will make you feel it are not a weird thing to balance powers around. The point of the game is to get immersed in this world of superheroes, supervillains, and super-ambiguous people, or super ambiguously-people, in my opinion. I'm not trying to just either chew out the devs or make people scared of change though. I'd be willing to help work on it so I should probably get to turning in apps already, and I just want to see some things that seem neglected fleshed out, not anything that already exists removed. I don't think I'll post any more threads until I get on that, though I still want to request a couple more cosmetic things in the threads for that. 

[Rudra]

53 minutes ago, CoeruleumBlue said:

 

RP, PvP, and the few enemies like Posi or Siren or maybe Arachnos that will make you feel it are not a weird thing to balance powers around. The point of the game is to get immersed in this world of superheroes, supervillains, and super-ambiguous people, or super ambiguously-people, in my opinion. I'm not trying to just either chew out the devs or make people scared of change though. I'd be willing to help work on it so I should probably get to turning in apps already, and I just want to see some things that seem neglected fleshed out, not anything that already exists removed. I don't think I'll post any more threads until I get on that, though I still want to request a couple more cosmetic things in the threads for that. 

RP is not something to balance powers around. I've seen players whose RP was absolutely nothing could affect them and absolutely nothing could resist them. That isn't balanced.

 

PvP has its own balance going on. Our powers work differently in PvP than in PvE.

 

Positron does not debuff anyone's Perception, so what are you talking about?

 

Who is Siren?

 

Arachnos Night Widows and Tarantula Queens/Mistresses love their smoke bombs, no doubt, but Tactics has always been enough for me to laugh their smoke bombs off.

[CoeruleumBlue]

54 minutes ago, Rudra said:

RP is not something to balance powers around. I've seen players whose RP was absolutely nothing could affect them and absolutely nothing could resist them. That isn't balanced.

 

PvP has its own balance going on. Our powers work differently in PvP than in PvE.

 

Positron does not debuff anyone's Perception, so what are you talking about?

 

Who is Siren?

 

Arachnos Night Widows and Tarantula Queens/Mistresses love their smoke bombs, no doubt, but Tactics has always been enough for me to laugh their smoke bombs off.

 

Yes, and if we had powers balanced properly no one would be able to PvP like that anymore except ten-year-olds whose parents walked away, because people could just PvP and say who's stronger if they had to, or do competitive PvE content. The result of having powers that are just wonky is people can make up whatever they want. The game should make sense so people can't just make up whatever they want. I like playing actual story content to refresh my brain and I think PvE, PvP, and RP should ideally all be the same. It's good PvP and PvE stats aren't the same I'm sure since that has broken other games, but still, there's way too much stuff that doesn't seem like it makes any sense at all when they split off PvP and PvE, like letting Stalkers have a higher stealth cap in PvP even though other classes can get the same stealth in PvE, and putting perception only on totally random things like on an ice cage but not on the psionic or dark version of the same power even though in regular non-epic sets psionic and dark usually have perception and stealth abilities more than ice. Lots of things in this gae seem somewhat buggy to me though I'd be willing to help fix them, I'm not here to be a Karen talking to the manager, so I should just go offer to do that. 

[Rudra]

7 hours ago, CoeruleumBlue said:

 

Yes, and if we had powers balanced properly no one would be able to PvP like that anymore except ten-year-olds whose parents walked away, because people could just PvP and say who's stronger if they had to, or do competitive PvE content. The result of having powers that are just wonky is people can make up whatever they want. The game should make sense so people can't just make up whatever they want. I like playing actual story content to refresh my brain and I think PvE, PvP, and RP should ideally all be the same. It's good PvP and PvE stats aren't the same I'm sure since that has broken other games, but still, there's way too much stuff that doesn't seem like it makes any sense at all when they split off PvP and PvE, like letting Stalkers have a higher stealth cap in PvP even though other classes can get the same stealth in PvE, and putting perception only on totally random things like on an ice cage but not on the psionic or dark version of the same power even though in regular non-epic sets psionic and dark usually have perception and stealth abilities more than ice. Lots of things in this gae seem somewhat buggy to me though I'd be willing to help fix them, I'm not here to be a Karen talking to the manager, so I should just go offer to do that. 

A video game needs to be balanced for how it is played. RP has no role in that. If RP is a consideration, it is a consideration of the player, not the game, and is based on how the player conceives of his/her/their character and that character's interactions with the game world and other players. (Edit: Yes, this is a MMORPG, but given the extremely wide range of how people RP, you can't expect anyone to design RP into the game. The RP is done by the players.) And that has to be done within the framework the game world provides if there is a game mechanic component to it. Let's use Perception as an example. A player makes a Blaster and declares the character has super enhanced vision, able to see targets through their attempts to sneak and at longer than normal ranges. That player can either build for that enhanced Perception by taking Tactics or by slotting enhancements that grant extra Perception on a constant basis, or that player can simply say his/her/their character has it and not take Tactics or slot any enhancements to boost Perception. In the latter case, that player still has the option of using a SG empowerment station to boost his/her/their character's Perception for 90 minutes at a time to grant said character that ability, or that player can stock yellow inspirations to counter enemy stealth and attempts to blind the character, and merge new inspiration drops into more yellows for a "constant" stream of increased Perception. Outside of combat, that character can have all the Perception in the world when roleplaying with other players and not a single person is likely to care if that character actually does or not.

 

PvP combat was changed because it used to be Rock-Paper-Scissors. A Controller or Dominator could permanently lock down Blasters, Corruptors, and Defenders who never got to do anything except die while being completely unable to do anything with a Brute, Scrapper, Stalker, or Tanker other than run away or die. Melees couldn't do anything to ranged characters because those ranged characters were always out of reach. And so on and so forth. So player powers were changed to have a PvE and PvP version so that a semblance of balance and competition had a chance to exist in PvP. (Note that mobs in PvP zones still follow PvE rules with their powers. Mobs cannot engage in PvP.)

 

Stalkers start with the highest stealth radius of all AT stealth powers except for two specific powers Controllers get access to if they select the correct primary. That's PvE. Stealth powers do not stack stealth radius any more. (Except for the procs and Grant/Team Invisibility.) And stealth is a Stalker trademark, so I wholly understand why they would get the higher cap. So your complaint about Stalkers getting better stealth rings hollow to me.

 

What ice cage are you talking about?

 

Edited Saturday at 05:51 PM by Rudra
Edited again to correct "not" to "it".

[golstat2003]

22 hours ago, CoeruleumBlue said:

 

There are a couple of not often encountered enemies in PvE that can give you trouble, but still, why are PvE and PvP stats not the same in the first place? Breaks my immersion in both cases. Other people have commented on this. I'm willing to work on it personally. It's the same problem with sentinels, I don't want to look at the game like "if we just pretend..." because the game is supposed to take away the pretending for you. Everything should be properly balanced and I'm willing to help with that. 

 

Do you mean you're willing to apply to be Dev and if accepted pull up their shirt sleeves and dig into the code on your time?

 

Cause other than that there's nothing you or any of us can do to properly balance this game with its 20 year old mess of sphagetti code.

[CoeruleumBlue]

11 hours ago, Rudra said:

A video game needs to be balanced for how it is played. RP has no role in that. If RP is a consideration, it is a consideration of the player, not the game, and is based on how the player conceives of his/her/their character and that character's interactions with the game world and other players. (Edit: Yes, this is a MMORPG, but given the extremely wide range of how people RP, you can't expect anyone to design RP into the game. The RP is done by the players.) And that has to be done within the framework the game world provides if there is a game mechanic component to it. Let's use Perception as an example. A player makes a Blaster and declares the character has super enhanced vision, able to see targets through their attempts to sneak and at longer than normal ranges. That player can either build for that enhanced Perception by taking Tactics or by slotting enhancements that grant extra Perception on a constant basis, or that player can simply say his/her/their character has it and not take Tactics or slot any enhancements to boost Perception. In the latter case, that player still has the option of using a SG empowerment station to boost his/her/their character's Perception for 90 minutes at a time to grant said character that ability, or that player can stock yellow inspirations to counter enemy stealth and attempts to blind the character, and merge new inspiration drops into more yellows for a "constant" stream of increased Perception. Outside of combat, that character can have all the Perception in the world when roleplaying with other players and not a single person is likely to care if that character actually does or not.

 

PvP combat was changed because it used to be Rock-Paper-Scissors. A Controller or Dominator could permanently lock down Blasters, Corruptors, and Defenders who never got to do anything except die while being completely unable to do anything with a Brute, Scrapper, Stalker, or Tanker other than run away or die. Melees couldn't do anything to ranged characters because those ranged characters were always out of reach. And so on and so forth. So player powers were changed to have a PvE and PvP version so that a semblance of balance and competition had a chance to exist in PvP. (Note that mobs in PvP zones still follow PvE rules with their powers. Mobs cannot engage in PvP.)

 

Stalkers start with the highest stealth radius of all AT stealth powers except for two specific powers Controllers get access to if they select the correct primary. That's PvE. Stealth powers do not stack stealth radius any more. (Except for the procs and Grant/Team Invisibility.) And stealth is a Stalker trademark, so I wholly understand why they would get the higher cap. So your complaint about Stalkers getting better stealth rings hollow to me.

 

What ice cage are you talking about?

 

 

So Illusion controllers aren't literally built around having 1000-radius Stealth that's the same as what Stalkers get, you need to be able to see right through their illusions at all time? The fantasy of making illusions is the fantasy of PEW BANG goes the bang-bang pet, and not, you know, making illusions and tricking people? VEATs get two stealths that stack just like Stalkers, but they get a lower cap too? Come on, people are just not bothering to balance it because of the excuse that no one PvPs and that's it. Also Tactics still doesn't get you to max stealth and the only two IOs that give you +Perception give +100 each. The +Stealth IO gives you +300 from just one so if you stack that with any kind of group stealth and Hide you would be at the cap for Stalkers, never mind the arbitrary cap for non-Stalkers that exists despite the existence of illusion controllers and stuff that's really obviously supposed to have as much stealth as Stalkers. You can't just build a class around the idea of illusions and be like "by illusions we mean pets that shoot really big lasers, not actually deluding your opponent!" 

 

I think perception especially and to a lesser degree stealth should be in epic pools, though lots more classes and subclasses can max out stealth than perception already. It's still very weird to be on a straight psychic character or similar that's not a melee, and just not have perception, while a straight ice character can have it. People make psychic characters and also dark to have ESP, or tech-themed to have super targeting, meanwhile ice characters can see beyond the veil by... being in an ice cage? I'm actually not even sure why most melee characters would have increased perception or stealth on their armors at all since they can fight at close range anyway, that seems like something that should only go on a few ones thematically. Like even something like Savage Assault on Dominator doesn't get it when you have a mechanic called Blood Frenzy? But you can't smell blood? Yeah come on. 

[macskull]

On 10/17/2025 at 11:41 AM, CoeruleumBlue said:

but still, why are PvE and PvP stats not the same in the first place?

Because if they were you'd either have critters aggroing on non-stealthed characters from halfway across the map, or you'd be completely unable to find enemy players in a PvP environment.

[Jacke]

On 10/17/2025 at 12:41 PM, CoeruleumBlue said:

...why are PvE and PvP stats not the same in the first place?

 

Because a game has to be designed from the start to have PvE and PvP play as similar as possible.  Exampe: Star Wars: The Old Republic.  Once a PvE game has developed a lot, to add PvP to it (as happened with City) means making the two systems very different.

 

Why?  @macskull gives a good reason:  Player Toons have much longer Perception ranges than the Mobs do.  If the Mobs all had the same Perception as the Toons, once you had line-of-sight to Mobs on most maps, they'd have line-of-sight to you and would ALL aggro on you.  If Toons had the Perception Ranges of Mobs, everywhere would be like on the final map of the Sara Moore Task Force: Stumbling around barely able to see anything.  And with different Toon and Mob Perception, comes different PvP and PvE stealth ranges.

 

Another big difference: PvE Player Long Mez Power Durations.  Don't see that in SWTOR.  That's because Players being Mezzed as long as Mobs are is very very unfun.  Thus the Mez Effects and Protections are different for PvP and PvE.

 

 

[CoeruleumBlue]

7 minutes ago, Jacke said:

 

Because a game has to be designed from the start to have PvE and PvP play as similar as possible.  Exampe: Star Wars: The Old Republic.  Once a PvE game has developed a lot, to add PvP to it (as happened with City) means making the two systems very different.

 

Why?  @macskull gives a good reason:  Player Toons have much longer Perception ranges than the Mobs do.  If the Mobs all had the same Perception as the Toons, once you had line-of-sight to Mobs on most maps, they'd have line-of-sight to you and would ALL aggro on you.  If Toons had the Perception Ranges of Mobs, everywhere would be like on the final map of the Sara Moore Task Force: Stumbling around barely able to see anything.  And with different Toon and Mob Perception, comes different PvP and PvE stealth ranges.

 

Another big difference: PvE Player Long Mez Power Durations.  Don't see that in SWTOR.  That's because Players being Mezzed as long as Mobs are is very very unfun.  Thus the Mez Effects and Protections are different for PvP and PvE.

 

 

 

OK, so we can't have perception and stealth being exactly the same. Why not just give everyone the same caps for stealth and perception? Otherwise you're just killing stuff like Illusion Control. And ditto for mez. If you built your build around using mezzes you should probably be able to use that in PvP. Know what's really not fun? Having PvP be nothing but a bunch of stalkers, even if stalkers are fun to play, the lack of variety and lack of RP fights are both unfun. If something works in PvE it should work in PvP too even if it doesn't work exactly the same. Perception and Stealth also have some issues in PvE even if mez doesn't, hence why this wasn't just a PvP thread to begin with. 

[macskull]

7 minutes ago, CoeruleumBlue said:

Having PvP be nothing but a bunch of stalkers

The only time this has ever been remotely true was right after Issue 13 when Spirit Shark incorrectly did insane damage. Outside of that one specific instance Stalkers have never really been a threat in PvP to anyone capable of using the WASD and space keys. The most common ATs in PvP are the ones that have the lowest stealth caps anyways.

[CoeruleumBlue]

40 minutes ago, macskull said:

The only time this has ever been remotely true was right after Issue 13 when Spirit Shark incorrectly did insane damage. Outside of that one specific instance Stalkers have never really been a threat in PvP to anyone capable of using the WASD and space keys. The most common ATs in PvP are the ones that have the lowest stealth caps anyways.

 

Maybe in open PvP but not 1v1. I mostly see stalkers in 1v1 and a few tanks or brutes, but mostly stalkers. 

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, CoeruleumBlue said:

So Illusion controllers aren't literally built around having 1000-radius Stealth that's the same as what Stalkers get, you need to be able to see right through their illusions at all time?

What drugs are you on and why aren't you sharing? In PvE, Stalker Hide provides 150 feet of stealth radius. (PvP gets 500 feet.) Procs like Celerity's +Stealth grant 30 feet of stealth radius. (300 in PvP.) That is 180 feet of stealth in PvE and 800 feet of stealth in PvP. Other than the travel procs, I am not aware of any way to boost stealth through enhancements. And now you want to compare illusions? Okay. Let's see just how much it sucks to be an Illusion Control Controller for stealth versus any Stalker.

 

 

                                              PvE                                           PvP

Superior Invisibility:      200 feet stealth radius                1000 feet stealth radius

Cloaking Device:           200 feet stealth radius                1000 feet stealth radius

Any form Hide:             150 feet stealth radius                  500 feet stealth radius

Stealth Procs:                  30 feet stealth radius                  300 feet stealth radius

 

Let's take a look at the stealth caps now.

Stalker cap:                300 feet stealth radius                 1143 feet stealth radius

Controller cap:          200 feet stealth radius                   571.5 feet stealth radius

 

So those Controllers using Superior Invisibility or Cloaking Device? Are already at their stealth radius cap without needing to slot any procs. Stalkers? Are still below the Controller's stealth radius cap even if they slot a stealth proc. (180 feet stealth radius from Hide + Stealth Proc < 200 feet stealth radius cap of Controllers for PvE.) In PvP? Stalkers are still below the Controller's stealth radius cap unless they slot a Stealth Proc.

 

So please enlighten me what Stalker is running around with 1000 feet stealth radius. Because the only way I know for a Stalker to get there is for someone else to use Grant Invisibility on them to get there.

 

1 hour ago, CoeruleumBlue said:

The fantasy of making illusions is the fantasy of PEW BANG goes the bang-bang pet, and not, you know, making illusions and tricking people?

Illusion Control gets to use illusions. They cause illusory wounds on their enemies. They cause their enemies to hallucinate that their allies are really their enemies. They create illusory allies that deal lots of real damage. They create illusory allies that create more illusory allies, and they also deal real damage. They use illusions to hide from their enemies and to hide their allies as well. And their illusions hiding them work better than Stalkers. Where is your complaint about Illusion Control coming from?!

 

1 hour ago, CoeruleumBlue said:

VEATs get two stealths that stack just like Stalkers, but they get a lower cap too?

VEATs get better armor caps than Stalkers. VEATS get to double dip in leadership powers. VEATS get to build as full melee, full range, or hybrid melee-range characters while still retaining full armor sets. Soldiers of Arachnos don't get any AT stealth powers unless they go Bane Spider, and that grants them one stealth power, not two. And as far as I can remember, Widows of Arachnos only get one stealth power as well, but it is found in both upgrade branches of the AT. So how is the VEAT stealth cap being lower than Stalkers a complaint?

 

1 hour ago, CoeruleumBlue said:

Also Tactics still doesn't get you to max stealth

Of course Tactics doesn't get you to max stealth. It doesn't have a stealth component. It has a +Perception component.

 

1 hour ago, CoeruleumBlue said:

The +Stealth IO gives you +300 from just one so if you stack that with any kind of group stealth and Hide you would be at the cap for Stalkers, never mind the arbitrary cap for non-Stalkers that exists despite the existence of illusion controllers and stuff that's really obviously supposed to have as much stealth as Stalkers.

Are you seriously upset that an AT that is purpose designed around stealth gets a higher stealth cap than the ATs that are not purpose designed around stealth?

 

1 hour ago, CoeruleumBlue said:

You can't just build a class around the idea of illusions and be like "by illusions we mean pets that shoot really big lasers, not actually deluding your opponent!" 

Have you even tried an Illusion Control Controller? Because I haven't seen any of them "shoot really big lasers, not actually deluding your opponent". Illusion Control consists of one illusion wound ability, two illusion target disabling abilities, one illusionary enemy ability that makes your enemies see each other as enemies and attack each other, two forms of illusions to hide in, and three illusionary allies that either deal direct real harm to your enemies or become their worst nightmares filling them with fear.

 

1 hour ago, CoeruleumBlue said:

while a straight ice character can have it.

You still haven't told me what ice power does this. And seeing as how your post commented about Tactics granting stealth, I'm starting to think you completely misunderstand whatever that power is.

 

Edit again: Oh yeah. The lowest Perception cap across all the ATs is 1,153 feet at level 50. The highest stealth cap across all ATs is 1,143. So trying to max out your stealth is basically a waste of time anyway. The last time I did any PvP, the players were focused on layering +Perception bonuses. There was no way to hide from them. And in PvE? It simply doesn't matter. Stalker Hide is more than enough to sneak past even snipers once you reach the level for it. (Edit yet again: And before you make a strange comment about illusion Controllers should be able to as well? They can.)

 

Edited Sunday at 06:45 AM by Rudra
Edited to correct "1142" to "1143". And "with" to "without".

[Indystruck]

there's a +Perception IO in ToHit in I believe the Rectified Reticle set, just slot that.

 

Oh, you mentioned that. Well, shit, how much more do you need between that and Tactics? Is it just a blue numbers hangup?

Edited Sunday at 07:42 AM by Indystruck

[biostem]

I'm not necessarily against the idea, and I think it could be implemented via some entirely new APPs.  For instance, neither tankers nor brutes have an elec APP, (yes I know they can take Mu mastery, but it's a bit different).  You could have something like a "neuro-electric stimulation" toggle that improves perception and recharge, or maybe a pistol based APP for melee ATs that has some sort of target designator power...

Edited Sunday at 02:51 PM by biostem

[golstat2003]

8 hours ago, CoeruleumBlue said:

 

Maybe in open PvP but not 1v1. I mostly see stalkers in 1v1 and a few tanks or brutes, but mostly stalkers. 

 

The pvp side is not balanced for 1 v 1. And I don't think the intent was it to ever be balanced 1 v 1. 8 v 8 is also where the real pvp exists.

[CoeruleumBlue]

On 10/19/2025 at 1:27 AM, Rudra said:

What drugs are you on and why aren't you sharing? In PvE, Stalker Hide provides 150 feet of stealth radius. (PvP gets 500 feet.) Procs like Celerity's +Stealth grant 30 feet of stealth radius. (300 in PvP.) That is 180 feet of stealth in PvE and 800 feet of stealth in PvP. Other than the travel procs, I am not aware of any way to boost stealth through enhancements. And now you want to compare illusions? Okay. Let's see just how much it sucks to be an Illusion Control Controller for stealth versus any Stalker.

 

 

                                              PvE                                           PvP

Superior Invisibility:      200 feet stealth radius                1000 feet stealth radius

Cloaking Device:           200 feet stealth radius                1000 feet stealth radius

Any form Hide:             150 feet stealth radius                  500 feet stealth radius

Stealth Procs:                  30 feet stealth radius                  300 feet stealth radius

 

Let's take a look at the stealth caps now.

Stalker cap:                300 feet stealth radius                 1143 feet stealth radius

Controller cap:          200 feet stealth radius                   571.5 feet stealth radius

 

So those Controllers using Superior Invisibility or Cloaking Device? Are already at their stealth radius cap without needing to slot any procs. Stalkers? Are still below the Controller's stealth radius cap even if they slot a stealth proc. (180 feet stealth radius from Hide + Stealth Proc < 200 feet stealth radius cap of Controllers for PvE.) In PvP? Stalkers are still below the Controller's stealth radius cap unless they slot a Stealth Proc.

 

So please enlighten me what Stalker is running around with 1000 feet stealth radius. Because the only way I know for a Stalker to get there is for someone else to use Grant Invisibility on them to get there.

 

Illusion Control gets to use illusions. They cause illusory wounds on their enemies. They cause their enemies to hallucinate that their allies are really their enemies. They create illusory allies that deal lots of real damage. They create illusory allies that create more illusory allies, and they also deal real damage. They use illusions to hide from their enemies and to hide their allies as well. And their illusions hiding them work better than Stalkers. Where is your complaint about Illusion Control coming from?!

 

VEATs get better armor caps than Stalkers. VEATS get to double dip in leadership powers. VEATS get to build as full melee, full range, or hybrid melee-range characters while still retaining full armor sets. Soldiers of Arachnos don't get any AT stealth powers unless they go Bane Spider, and that grants them one stealth power, not two. And as far as I can remember, Widows of Arachnos only get one stealth power as well, but it is found in both upgrade branches of the AT. So how is the VEAT stealth cap being lower than Stalkers a complaint?

 

Of course Tactics doesn't get you to max stealth. It doesn't have a stealth component. It has a +Perception component.

 

Are you seriously upset that an AT that is purpose designed around stealth gets a higher stealth cap than the ATs that are not purpose designed around stealth?

 

Have you even tried an Illusion Control Controller? Because I haven't seen any of them "shoot really big lasers, not actually deluding your opponent". Illusion Control consists of one illusion wound ability, two illusion target disabling abilities, one illusionary enemy ability that makes your enemies see each other as enemies and attack each other, two forms of illusions to hide in, and three illusionary allies that either deal direct real harm to your enemies or become their worst nightmares filling them with fear.

 

You still haven't told me what ice power does this. And seeing as how your post commented about Tactics granting stealth, I'm starting to think you completely misunderstand whatever that power is.

 

Edit again: Oh yeah. The lowest Perception cap across all the ATs is 1,153 feet at level 50. The highest stealth cap across all ATs is 1,143. So trying to max out your stealth is basically a waste of time anyway. The last time I did any PvP, the players were focused on layering +Perception bonuses. There was no way to hide from them. And in PvE? It simply doesn't matter. Stalker Hide is more than enough to sneak past even snipers once you reach the level for it. (Edit yet again: And before you make a strange comment about illusion Controllers should be able to as well? They can.)

 

 

Stealth and Hide stack. That applies to both Stalkers and VEATs. I don't care if an AT like controllers or VEATs isn't built around stealth, if some of the archetypes are capable of getting to really high numbers, let them have it, because when they took the options that got them to those numbers, they didn't take something else. If you're on a VEAT and you took full ranged and full melee, for example, you probably can't double-dip in leadership and also take the armor sets. Options do not make up for what you actually pick in actuality, what you actually pick should matter. This thinking is probably also why Sentinels still suck. Also, yeah, if there are barely any available +Perception bonuses to layer on in PvP on, say, blasters or dominators, and sometimes not even on defenders or controllers or some of the melee armor sets... *See thread title*