Thoughts on DP Piercing Rounds?

[Curveball]

So I have a DP/SR Sentinel (as well as my Fire/SR Sentinel, it's an interesting contrast) and I'd pretty much ignored the Piercing Rounds attacks without ever even trying it, because despite its great damage on paper (2nd highest in the set) it has a 2.5 second activation time and an unreliable and limited aoe (3 targets max, and it's hard to line up). But I figured I should at least try it out, so I respecced, dropped Pistols and took Piercing Rounds. And I've tried it for a while and... so far I'm not thrilled with it.

 

It seems to take the middle ground between Executioner's Shot and Hail of Bullets, but it takes on all the qualities I like least about both.

 

 

The animation time for Hail of Bullets is just as long, but it's a dot, and the animation lasts as long as the damage (and, you know, it looks really cool) so it's not a big issue to wait it out. Also, it has such a long recharge time it's not part of your regular attack chain so when you're using it, you're doing something deliberate. And its AOE is fantastic. The animation time fits with the power perfectly.

 

Executioner's Shot is a little less satisfying. The animation is great, but it's a little longer than I'd prefer it to be, just because I'd prefer a faster attack chain. But the damage is nice and it's fine.

 

Piercing Rounds... the damage is fantastic but I'm basically just sitting there watching my character flip his gun in the air for no reason. It's frustrating to use right now, though I suppose I could get used to it eventually. It claims to do the 2nd highest amount of damage in the set, though if you translate that to dps it might not be true due to the long animation time...  but I haven't bothered to put it on a spreadsheet yet.

 

Anyway. I'll give it another few days but so far no sir, I don't like it. A character's attack shouldn't be giving me attention span issues. 😄

 

[Uun]

You don't need to put it on a spreadsheet. If you use Mid's, pull up the Power Graphs window and select Damage/Anim. Piercing Rounds DPA is inferior to Executioner's Shot, Hail of Bullets, Pistols or Suppressive Fire (using Cryo or Incendiary Ammo). [Note, Mid's information on Suppressive Fire is incorrect for non-standard ammo types and it doesn't appear in the Power Graphs window.]

[tidge]

2 hours ago, Curveball said:

Anyway. I'll give it another few days but so far no sir, I don't like it. A character's attack shouldn't be giving me attention span issues. 😄

 

I thought the Dual Pistol sound effects were supposed to be the cue to prepare another attack?

[Curveball]

22 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

I thought the Dual Pistol sound effects were supposed to be the cue to prepare another attack?

 

Are they really? I honestly had no idea, though I don't see how that could work with the dots.

[Curveball]

51 minutes ago, Uun said:

You don't need to put it on a spreadsheet. If you use Mid's, pull up the Power Graphs window and select Damage/Anim. Piercing Rounds DPA is inferior to Executioner's Shot, Hail of Bullets, Pistols or Suppressive Fire (using Cryo or Incendiary Ammo). [Note, Mid's information on Suppressive Fire is incorrect for non-standard ammo types and it doesn't appear in the Power Graphs window.]

 

If I could get Mids running on Linux that would make me very happy, but it requires dotnet which requires protontricks  (for my specific setup anyway) which crashes every time I try to run it. But that's a good thing to remember for when I finally get all that worked out!

[tidge]

2 hours ago, Curveball said:

 

Are they really? I honestly had no idea, though I don't see how that could work with the dots.

 

Dual Pistols is the one set I've used (more than once) where both the dog and I find the noise (firecrackers) to be highly annoying. I recognize that most sets become audibly repetitive, but DP is the one that triggers me (sic). 

[Redlynne]

/delurk 

 

 

 

Dual Pistols is one of the more easily misunderstood powersets (along with Kinetic Melee). The "secret sauce" of Dual Pistols is decidedly inobvious, especially since most people will advise you to think of it (and therefore slot it as) a Proc Monster in order to achieve the goal of MOAR DAMNAGE NAO! ... as if DPS was the only thing that mattered.

 

I myself have (quite successfully) run Dual Pistols on a pair of Defenders (Time and Kinetics, to get a "feel" for the differences) using the exact same duplicate slotting for Dual Pistols on both Defenders. I took all 9 powers in Dual Pistols(!) and the whole thing works brilliantly (in the "never a dull moment" sense).

 

 

In my estimation, the "secret sauce" of Dual Pistols is more of a confluence of factors which make the powerset unique.

Let me first, in good faith, demonstrate what I'm talking about (in a Defender, granted, but you can interpolate pretty easily into a Sentinel).

 

 

 

Level 1: Pistols

• (A) Superior Vigilant Assault - Accuracy/Damage: Attuned
• (3) Superior Vigilant Assault - Damage/Recharge: Attuned
• (3) Superior Vigilant Assault - Damage/Endurance/Recharge: Attuned
• (5) Superior Vigilant Assault - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance: Attuned
• (5) Superior Vigilant Assault - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge: Attuned
• (11) Superior Vigilant Assault - Recharge/PBAoE +Absorb (5.0 PPM): Attuned
  • 5.0 * ((4 / ( 1 + 95.90 / 100 )) + 1.00) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 0 * (11 * 0 + 540) / 40,000))) = 25.35%
• Hybrid Assault Radial Embodiment (6.0 PPM)
  • 6.0 * ((4 / ( 1 + 95.90 / 100 )) + 1.00) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 0 * (11 * 0 + 540) / 40,000))) = 30.42%

 

Level 6: Dual Wield

• (A) Superior Defender's Bastion - Accuracy/Damage: Attuned
• (7) Superior Defender's Bastion - Damage/Recharge: Attuned
• (7) Superior Defender's Bastion - Damage/Endurance/Recharge: Attuned
• (9) Superior Defender's Bastion - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance: Attuned
• (9) Superior Defender's Bastion - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge: Attuned
• (11) Superior Defender's Bastion - Recharge/Chance for Minor PBAoE Heal (5.0 PPM): Attuned
  • 5.0 * ((6 / ( 1 + 95.90 / 100 )) + 1.67) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 0 * (11 * 0 + 540) / 40,000))) = 39.44%
• Hybrid Assault Radial Embodiment (6.0 PPM)
  • 6.0 * ((6 / ( 1 + 95.90 / 100 )) + 1.67) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 0 * (11 * 0 + 540) / 40,000))) = 47.33%

 

Level 8: Empty Clips

• (A) Rolling Barrage - Accuracy/Damage: Level 27+5
• (13) Rolling Barrage - Damage/Endurance: Level 27+5
• (13) Achilles' Heel - Chance for Resist Debuff (3.5 PPM): Level 10
  • 3.5 * ((10 / ( 1 + 0 / 100 )) + 1.67) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 40 * (11 * 30 + 540) / 40,000))) = 41.20% per $Target
• (19) Force Feedback - Chance of +Recharge (2.0 PPM): Level 21
  • 2.0 * ((10 / ( 1 + 0 / 100 )) + 1.67) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 40 * (11 * 30 + 540) / 40,000))) = 23.54% per $Target
• (33) Range IO: Level 50+5
• (33) Detonation - Damage/Endurance/Range: Level 50+5
• Hybrid Assault Radial Embodiment (6.0 PPM)
  • 6.0 * ((10 / ( 1 + 0 / 100 )) + 1.67) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 40 * (11 * 30 + 540) / 40,000))) = 70.62% per $Target

 

Level 10: Swap Ammo

 

Level 16: Bullet Rain

• (A) Rolling Barrage - Accuracy/Damage: Level 27+5
• (17) Rolling Barrage - Damage/Endurance: Level 27+5
• (17) Overwhelming Force - Damage/20% Chance for Knockdown/Knockback to Knockdown: Attuned
• (19) Force Feedback - Chance of +Recharge (2.0 PPM): Level 21
  • 2.0 * ((18 / ( 1 + 0 / 100 )) + 1.67) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 15 * (11 * 360 + 540) / 40,000))) = 28.94% per $Target
• (34) Range IO: Level 50+5
• (34) Detonation - Damage/Endurance/Range: Level 50+5
• Hybrid Assault Radial Embodiment (6.0 PPM)
  • 6.0 * ((18 / ( 1 + 0 / 100 )) + 1.67) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 15 * (11 * 360 + 540) / 40,000))) = 86.82% per $Target

 

Level 20: Suppressive Fire

• (A) Neuronic Shutdown - Accuracy/Endurance : Level 27+5
• (21) Neuronic Shutdown - Chance for Psionic Damage (3.5 PPM): Level 10
  • 3.5 * ((20 / ( 1 + 0 / 100 )) + 1.5) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 0 * (11 * 0 + 540) / 40,000))) = 90% (Pre-clamp: 125.42%)
• (21) Ghost Widow's Embrace - for Psionic Damage (3.5 PPM): Level 20
  • 3.5 * ((20 / ( 1 + 0 / 100 )) + 1.5) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 0 * (11 * 0 + 540) / 40,000))) = 90% (Pre-clamp: 125.42%)
• (23) Decimation - Chance for Buildup (1.0 PPM): Level 25
  • 1.0 * ((20 / ( 1 + 0 / 100 )) + 1.5) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 0 * (11 * 0 + 540) / 40,000))) = 35.83%
• (27) Lockdown - Chance for +2 Mag Hold (2.5 PPM): Level 30
  • 2.5 * ((20 / ( 1 + 0 / 100 )) + 1.5) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 0 * (11 * 0 + 540) / 40,000))) = 89.58%
• (27) Devastation - Chance for +2 Mag Hold (3.0 PPM): Level 30
  • 3.0 * ((20 / ( 1 + 0 / 100 )) + 1.5) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 0 * (11 * 0 + 540) / 40,000))) = 90% (Pre-clamp: 107.5%)
• Hybrid Assault Radial Embodiment (6.0 PPM)
  • 6.0 * ((20 / ( 1 + 0 / 100 )) + 1.5) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 0 * (11 * 0 + 540) / 40,000))) = 90% (Pre-clamp: 215.00%)

 

Level 28: Executioner's Shot

• (A) Kinetic Crash - Accuracy/Knockback: Level 27+5
• (29) Kinetic Crash - Accuracy/Damage/Knockback: Level 27+5
• (29) Kinetic Crash - Damage/Endurance/Knockback: Level 27+5
• (31) Kinetic Crash - Damage/Knockback: Level 27+5
• (31) Force Feedback - Damage/Endurance/Knockback: Level 27+5
• (31) Force Feedback - Chance of +Recharge (2.0 PPM): Level 21
  • 2.0 * ((10 / ( 1 + 0 / 100 )) + 1.67) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 0 * (11 * 0 + 540) / 40,000))) = 38.9%
• Hybrid Assault Radial Embodiment (6.0 PPM)
  • 6.0 * ((10 / ( 1 + 0 / 100 )) + 1.67) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 0 * (11 * 0 + 540) / 40,000))) = 90% (Pre-clamp: 116.7%)

 

Level 35: Piercing Rounds

• (A) Rolling Barrage - Accuracy/Damage: Level 27+5
• (36) Rolling Barrage - Damage/Endurance: Level 27+5
• (36) Annihilation - Chance for Resist Debuff (3.0 PPM): Level 20
  • 3.0 * ((15 / ( 1 + 0 / 100 )) + 2.5) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 80 * (11 * 5 + 540) / 40,000))) = 46.24% per $Target
• (36) Insert Proc of your choice here ... 🫡
• (37) Range IO: Level 50+5
• (37) Detonation - Damage/Endurance/Range: Level 50+5
• Hybrid Assault Radial Embodiment (6.0 PPM)
  • 6.0 * ((15 / ( 1 + 0 / 100 )) + 2.5) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 80 * (11 * 5 + 540) / 40,000))) = 90% (Pre-clamp: 92.47%) per $Target

 

Level 38: Hail of Bullets

• (A) Superior Avalanche - Accuracy/Damage: Attuned
• (39) Superior Avalanche - Damage/Endurance: Attuned
• (39) Superior Avalanche - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge: Attuned
• (39) Superior Avalanche - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance: Attuned
• (40) Superior Avalanche - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge: Attuned
• (40) Superior Avalanche - Recharge/Chance for Knockdown (3.5 PPM): Attuned
  • 3.5 * ((105 / ( 1 + 72.25 / 100 )) + 2.47) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 25 * (11 * 360 + 540) / 40,000))) = 90% (Pre-clamp: 118.99%)
• Hybrid Assault Radial Embodiment (6.0 PPM)
  • 6.0 * ((105 / ( 1 + 72.25 / 100 )) + 2.47) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 25 * (11 * 360 + 540) / 40,000))) = 90% (Pre-clamp: 203.99%)

 

 

 

What all of that means is that you take all 9 powers in Dual Pistols and you 6-slot 8 of those powers (because Swap Ammo accepts no enhancement slots at all) ... which is a pretty hefty investment.

 

In practice this means that you've got 4.5 single target attacks and 3.5 multi-target attacks (since Piercing Rounds is kind of 50/50 for single/multi-target due to being a narrow 5º cone).

 

 

 

If you load up the above into your build planner app (Mids'?) of choice and take the Intuition Radial Paragon in your Alpha slot, you'll wind up with TWO powers that have a range of 158 feet (Bullet Rain and Piercing Rounds). Do I need to point out that (most) Sniper attacks "start" at a range of 150 feet before enhancement?

 

And just as a purely academic exercise ... what is the "width" of the base of a right triangle that has a "height" of ~158 feet and a 5º angle?

Answer: ~13.8 feet "wide" at the far end @ 158 feet downrange.

 

Moral of the story ... it's "easier to catch more $Targets" with Piercing Rounds as the range enhancement increases ... hence the slotting choices above in Empty Clips, Bullet Rain and Piercing Rounds.

• Enhancements in power alone: 47.03% Range (pre-ED: 47.81%)
• Add Intuition Radial Paragon Alpha Slot: 65.47% Range (pre-ED: 67.81%)
• Add 3x Rolling Barrage 2-slot set bonuses of +7.5% each: 87.97% Range
• Add Superior Defender's Bastion (or Superior Sentinel's Ward) 3-slot set bonus of +10%: 97.97% Range (combined) on Target AoE Powers

You know what that means, right? 🙄

• Empty Clips: 40 ft * 1.9797 = 79.188 ft 30º Cone
• Bullet Rain: 80 ft * 1.9797 = 158.376 ft TAoE
• Piercing Rounds: 80 ft * 1.9797 = 158.376 ft 5º Cone

With those set bonuses and the Intuition Radial Paragon Alpha, even your "boring" single target attacks (Pistols, Dual Wield, Executioner's Shot) start pulling out ranges like 122 ft ... and Suppressive Fire is more like 91.5 ft.

 

TRUST ME ... once you've played Dual Pistols with an extreme range enhanced build strategy ... you'll start wondering what you've been missing all this time up until now.

 

 

 

In actual gameplay, with the above slotting (on my Time and Kinetics Defenders), I'm frequently pulling stunts such as being able to:

• Empty Clips > Bullet Rain > Empty Clips > insert single target attack of choice here > REPEAT

The sheer amount of AoE firepower that this can output against "hordes of Foes" is ... quite gratifying. The trick, of course, is the Force Feedback procs in Empty Clips, Bullet Rain and Executioner's Shot. The uptime on Force Feedback isn't 100%, but it's better than average when facing off against $Target Rich Environments.

 

 

 

As for Piercing Rounds itself, the attack is "good" IF you're using it to your best advantage.

In my case, I'm typically running "Standard Ammo" (for knockback soft control) almost all the time, even though I've got Swap Ammo (which I only use for highly specialized edge case circumstances). While selected for Standard Ammo, Piercing Rounds will -Resistance Debuff ... which my slotting above will augment (46% of the time) with an Annihilation debuff proc for additional -Resistance Debuff (and Achilles' Heel proc for -Resistance Debuff is slotted into Empty Clips for even more stacking!).

 

However, I've got a couple of different ways that I employ Piercing Rounds, depending on the context of the current situation.

 

If I'm either alone (or ahead of a group) and can pick my position to engage, I'll typically line up on my $Target (choosing the "far" one) and then start moving into a position where a "nearer" Foe is in my line of fire. Cue Piercing Rounds and then just move forward into range ... BANG ... hit 2-3 mobs with one shot. This would be one way to "open" on a pack of mobs, using Piercing Rounds as my opening salvo when I've got initiative (and long animation time is less of an issue). This debuffs the 2-3 mobs that I'll hit so that any follow up attacks will deal MORE damage (because Standard Ammo = -Resistance Debuff).

 

The OTHER way that I use Piercing Rounds is to open with Suppressive Fire (!) ... followed by Pistols, Dual Wield, Executioner's Shot ... and then Piercing Rounds at the end.

• Suppressive Fire > Pistols > Dual Wield > Executioner's Shot > Piercing Rounds

Why would I do that?

Because I've got the Decimation - Chance for Buildup (35.83%) proc slotted into Suppressive Fire ... and the proc duration lasts long enough to "sustain" into the activation of Piercing Rounds. That means that the Buildup proc buff "extends" well beyond the usual animation time and I can "get more out of" each Buildup proc by using that particular sequencing. And because I slotted my ATOs into Pistols and Dual Wield, that gives me the opportunity to get those ATO procs (Pistols, Dual Wield), a Force Feedback proc (Executioner's Shot) and an Annihilation proc (Piercing Rounds) along with the 2x DoT procs (90%) and 2x Mag 2 procs (89.58-90%) slotted into Suppressive Fire, making for a pretty decent mix of Control+Damage on a single (plus friends?) $Target. When Suppressive Fire recharges in ~7 seconds "pretty reliably" due to set bonuses+power buffs, it can become relatively easy to receive more Build Up procs (35.83%) from Suppressive Fire than an ACTUAL Build Up power (6-slotted with Gaussian's Fire Control) would be able to deliver over similar time spans (~30 second blocks).

 

Alternatively, I can use Suppressive Fire (with its Build Up proc) to "fish for procs" while cycling through Empty Clips > Bullet Rain > Empty Clips because those Build Up procs will massively increase the damage throughput of those AoE attacks into hordes of Foes, due to multiplication of $Targets.

Season to taste with -Resistance Debuff(s) from Piercing Rounds to magnify damage throughput EVEN MORE. 😎

 

 

 

Once you get into the ... habit ... of treating your Dual Pistols as being more akin to "sniper weapons" due to building for RANGE like I've demonstrated above ... and you get accustomed to the "Rolling Thunder" feeling of proccing Force Feedback almost continuously ... things can start getting pretty nutty.

 

Longer Cones get WIDER at the far end ... which makes it SO MUCH EASIER to "saturate" your way to Max Targets (and thus, deal MOAR DAMNAGE!) in a wider array of contexts and circumstances.

 

You can use Piercing Rounds + Bullet Rain as a 2x "sniper" ranged attack out to 158 feet ... and with the Overwhelming Force KB>KD enhancement slotted into Bullet Rain, there can be "bumrush halting" knockdowns occurring from that combo that will buy you (and everyone around you) "more time" to do whatever you/they need to in order to keep your Foes "soft controlled" and unable to retaliate full force.

 

8 hours ago, Curveball said:

I'd pretty much ignored the Piercing Rounds attacks without ever even trying it, because despite its great damage on paper (2nd highest in the set) it has a 2.5 second activation time and an unreliable and limited aoe (3 targets max, and it's hard to line up).

 

Trust me.

Once you've tasted EXTREME RANGE Cone attack(s) behavior ... you aren't going to want to go back.

For one thing, it's "easier" to hit 3 targets "nearby" to each other at longer ranges with a 5º Cone.

It may feel a bit like "crossing the T" in reverse, but it sure comes in handy a lot more often than you'd expect.

After all, at 115 ft to $Target ... a 5º Cone will extend 5 feet on either side of your $Target ... so shooting into clumps of Foes around an Aggro Magnet makes it a LOT easier to tag 2-3 with damage per Piercing Rounds shot, even if they aren't "perfectly lined up" in your direction.

 

Get used to "picking the one in the middle" as your $Target and get a feel for what your Cones (Empty Clips, Piercing Rounds) can do for you in terms of multiplying your damage throughput into $Target Rich Environments™ from a greater standoff distance. You'll start to develop a FEEL for how "close" you need to be in order to catch (most) everything you want to in your Cone attacks and the game will start to feel much more immersive and engaging as a result.

 

 

 

Oh and this probably ought to be obvious, but the kind of extreme range build advantage I've outlined above blends really well with Hover Sniping, if you're into that sort of thing. 🙄

 

Personally, I just like being able to join the "snipers" during Underground iTrial Bomb Runs, because my Dual Pistols have 2x "sniper range" attacks that I can use which recharge pretty quickly ... 😎👍

 

 

 

Your mileage may vary, of course. 😅

 

 

 

 

 

/relurk 

[Lockpick]

9 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

/delurk 

 

/relurk 

 

Welcome back!  Some good thoughts in your post that I am interested to try.  I typically go Agility Radial for Incarnates and I have always just used the Fire Ammo.  I will definitely be interested in trying this setup.

 

[Frozen Burn]

Piercing Rounds isn't for a standard attack chain.  It's a nice finishing shot for those that are running away and while you're Executioner's Shot is recharging.  It can also be a nice opener when you can get things lined up to take advantage of the cone.  

 

I personally love the power despite the long animation.