Addressing the Tanker Brute Connundrum.

[Leogunner]

34 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Nah it does make a difference. Given that you dont *need* any given ATs to play, the tanker feels a bit weird to play.

I didn't say it doesn't make a difference, I said it doesn't make a *perceivable* difference.  Increasing Tanker Max HP by 10 technically makes a difference but no one would ever notice it.  Increasing their unkillableness by 5% when they already aren't dying wouldn't be noticed unless you were specifically keeping tabs on performance vs a Brute.

 

37 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

There isnt much different in the gameplay loop between a brute and tanker mechanically. A Scrapper at least can react around crits taking down certain mobs and keeps things fresh compared to a stalker who plans out crits. A brute just plays like a faster tank that can easily get as tough as one when in a team setting, with the benefit of being able to kill faster. If Tanks had some sort of thing they could do *significantly different* than brutes, they'd be in a similar state when looking at scrapper vs stalker. That's not to mention that scrapper and stalker sets are differently made, while the brute and tank sets are identical.

I still stand by my suggestion to just make Tanker AoEs hit more targets and more reliably.  It plays into their nature of surrounding themselves in a sea of foes, can be fun if you're used to playing Scrap/Brute with more confined cone attacks like Jacob's Ladder or Cleave, only indirectly increases damage (not really power creep), rewards them more for herding up foes to them and lets them taunt more things faster.  Oh, and it's all number adjustment tweaks in the power so not directly recoding mechanics.

[Galaxy Brain]

Yeah, that would be something that males them actually feel different! That along with maybe some sort of team boost per tank primary like grant cover as a secondary boost would be gucci.

[Infinitum]

9 hours ago, Leogunner said:

 

 

An appeal to a perspective of inferiority, or what I'd call an inferiority complex, demonstrated not by merely stating the fact that Brute can often steal the role of a tanker but by suggesting one be nerfed or by proposing something that doesn't functionally change the dynamic between the two.

 

I'll say it again, I severely doubt people are dropping Tankers from groups just to reserve the spots for Brutes.  The game isn't that challenging to require such micromanagement.  At the end of the day, it is on the player if they want to make a Tanker, Brute or Scrapper and if you don't like the trade-offs Tanker makes, then don't play it.  The main disparity that I could see being remedied is the inequality of distribution (i.e. how many play Brute vs Tanker) and the only way to fix that is to make the two more unique in their styles of combat.

 

9 hours ago, Leogunner said:

 

 

An appeal to a perspective of inferiority, or what I'd call an inferiority complex, demonstrated not by merely stating the fact that Brute can often steal the role of a tanker but by suggesting one be nerfed or by proposing something that doesn't functionally change the dynamic between the two.

 

I'll say it again, I severely doubt people are dropping Tankers from groups just to reserve the spots for Brutes.  The game isn't that challenging to require such micromanagement.  At the end of the day, it is on the player if they want to make a Tanker, Brute or Scrapper and if you don't like the trade-offs Tanker makes, then don't play it.  The main disparity that I could see being remedied is the inequality of distribution (i.e. how many play Brute vs Tanker) and the only way to fix that is to make the two more unique in their styles of combat.

Shoot even if you nerfed Brute caps like they suggested, you still have the same defense soft cap across all ATs - then all you would see is SR brutes and Scrappers for the min maxers and still have the same percieved non existent tank problem.

 

What then? nerf defense soft cap across all ATs to rub some egos?  lol where does it end?

 

With IOs you can make any AT unhittable now especially combined with incarnate.

 

I actually JUST rolled a KM/SR scrapper over the same in a brute because it played better and was just as unkillable as a tank.  I do all this in test before I roll out live.

 

I have a blaster that I play the same way.

 

That's part of the fun making a theme you have in your head work in game with sets and set bonuses.

 

Sometimes it takes a tank to fill that theme, but is it ever required, or any AT?  Nope.

Edited August 4, 2019 by Infinitum
Added info

[Snakebit]

On 8/3/2019 at 8:38 AM, Infinitum said:

I have seen Scrappers tank, blasters tank, controllers, corrupters, Brutes, just about any AT tank stuff that you could not do before IO and incarnate content.

 

People always bring up farming, and thats not a fair point because farming rarely translates to the rareity of content you would face in the game.  Plus I have a fire tank that is faster than any brute I have seen clearing the fire farms. And hes also strong enough to tank any content in the game - but neither would be possible without IO Set bonuses and incarnate content.

 

Its not a AT issue, well to me its a non issue, I have 4 tanks various builds and they dont have issue clearing mobs at all, and are not boring or unenjoyable to play.  The only issue I have is rage crash occasionally making life difficult, but thats a different discussion.

 

Pre IO brutes nor any other AT could pull off the tank roll, but even then there were all controller teams that everyone was screaming about being overpowered because their buffs and debuffs stacked and didnt "need" any other ATs on team.

 

So no its not a brute issue, or a tank issue, or an AT specific issue.  If its boring to you, play something else theres plenty to choose from and many many ways to slot and design, but dont fault rhe AT because people like me that spend a lot of time making a brute or any at strong enough to main tank, because its not easy getting there and building enough inf to accomplish it. 

 

Even as strong as my brute is I still get overlooked in the favor of a tank occasionally because tanks can do some things better still.

 

Farming as a comparison is fair because solo play against +4/+8 represents close to the peak performance of a given character. It is more likely than not that a farming build will perform or outperform in regular play and less likely that a regular play build will be as fast as a farming build. I'm discounting builds tuned specifically fire resist. An S/L build works absolutely fine in non-farm content. 

 

In most content, you don't NEED a tank role, because the higher base and peak damage of brutes mitigates more aggro than tank-n-gather because dead mobs don't deal damage. 

 

I ne'er said anything about anything being boring. I'm not faulting any player for playing anything. The fault is in the design, not the players. 

 

because its not easy getting there

 

You're kidding here, right?

 

Even as strong as my brute is I still get overlooked in the favor of a tank occasionally because tanks can do some things better still.

 

As well you should be. The key word here is occasionally. Brutes should never be able to fill the role of a tank AND a scrapper. The problem is that they can, and not for short periods of time. They can do it from log-in to log-off.

 

I'll say it again, I believe that Fury should invoke an end-cost multiplier to every attack. 50% fury should not be the standard and fighting at +50% fury should not be sustainable solo. To fight at 50% Fury or above for more than a few spawns should take an investment by the rest of the team into helping manage the Brutes blue bar. 

 

Either that or remove all taunt from Brutes.

 

 

[Kimuji]

40 minutes ago, cejmp said:

As well you should be. The key word here is occasionally. Brutes should never be able to fill the role of a tank AND a scrapper. The problem is that they can, and not for short periods of time. They can do it from log-in to log-off.

 

I'll say it again, I believe that Fury should invoke an end-cost multiplier to every attack. 50% fury should not be the standard and fighting at +50% fury should not be sustainable solo. To fight at 50% Fury or above for more than a few spawns should take an investment by the rest of the team into helping manage the Brutes blue bar. 

 

Either that or remove all taunt from Brutes.

So now we're asking for Brutes to be nerfed into oblivion... Lovely.

And this is untrue, Brutes were intended to be able to tank from the start. That's why they have a taunt aura, a taunt power and a threat multiplier on their attacks. When Villain and Hero sides were clearly separated Brutes were the Villains' tanks. Brutes are meant to be able to tank if they chose to.

Your suggestions would simply make Brutes completely useless. The objective of this topic is to find ways improve Tankers in what they're meant to be (the best shields), NOT breaking Brutes.

Edited August 4, 2019 by Kimuji

[Galaxy Brain]

Yeah, no nerfing Brutes thats silly. Scrappers still outperform brutes on Offense due to various set mechanics and crits, and with similar defensive base stats it evens out where Scrappers shine with sets that give +Offense (Claws for example) while Brutes shine with more tankier builds that don't hit the same peak offense as scrappers.

 

Tankers do not follow the same path where they have X more defense vs Y less offense, its a much bigger gap on Y compared to Brutes. 

 

If that gap was shortened, it would just be too homogenous and actually threaten brutes IMO as then you  have Tankers who are easily tough WITH decent damage that doesn't need maintenance. Tankers need to be build sideways, not upwards. Things like way better AoE capacity, spreading buffs to the team through sheer presence on top of being a tank (Think how superman inspires the team! Grant Cover! Physically taking the damage for the team and granting a res boost to everyone else! Etc) are the way to go where they still play the same but have a distinct playstyle difference. 

[Infinitum]

4 hours ago, cejmp said:

 

Farming as a comparison is fair because solo play against +4/+8 represents close to the peak performance of a given character. It is more likely than not that a farming build will perform or outperform in regular play and less likely that a regular play build will be as fast as a farming build. I'm discounting builds tuned specifically fire resist. An S/L build works absolutely fine in non-farm content. 

 

In most content, you don't NEED a tank role, because the higher base and peak damage of brutes mitigates more aggro than tank-n-gather because dead mobs don't deal damage. 

 

I ne'er said anything about anything being boring. I'm not faulting any player for playing anything. The fault is in the design, not the players. 

 

 

 

 

You're kidding here, right?

 

 

 

 

As well you should be. The key word here is occasionally. Brutes should never be able to fill the role of a tank AND a scrapper. The problem is that they can, and not for short periods of time. They can do it from log-in to log-off.

 

I'll say it again, I believe that Fury should invoke an end-cost multiplier to every attack. 50% fury should not be the standard and fighting at +50% fury should not be sustainable solo. To fight at 50% Fury or above for more than a few spawns should take an investment by the rest of the team into helping manage the Brutes blue bar. 

 

Either that or remove all taunt from Brutes.

 

 

So basically make it where it wouldn't beneficial for any team to choose a brute because their inherant would become an AT penalty and also team penalty when the brute can't stay in the fight.

 

Thats brilliant if you never want to play brutes again.

[Heraclea]

I play many tankers, and generally enjoy the role in this game.  I continue to make them and level them.  Never been a huge fan of Brutes myself.  I find them harder to level, more expensive to get their endurance issues under control, and require a frantic play style that isn't my personal preference.  A tanker remains the best character for eating alpha strikes and pulling trouble from other players. 

 

My issue and worries about tanker obsolescence come from certain kinds of content.  Dark Astoria.  Night Ward.  The new Praetorians.  That sort of thing.  There is just so much debuff flying around there that this content becomes solo only and team unfriendly.  Facing a New Dark Astoria mission full of kinetic Tsoo minions is barely tolerable solo.  But if it's your role to absorb alpha strikes and deflect as many attacks as possible off your teammates and onto yourself, an 8 player team spawn of these varmints makes the game unplayable.  Absorb the alpha, and you may as well go AFK and wait to die.  It isn't like you'll be able to do anything else.  And there's a whole lot of other late-added content that has similar problems. 

 

I get the notion that towards the end the Paragon devs thought that tankers were obsolete or undesirable, and deliberately created content where they would bring nothing to teams and not be able to fulfill the role they were originally intended for.  Whether the Homecoming devs have ambitions to revise this dreck and turn it into something more team friendly and fun, I cannot guess.  

 

[ryuplaneswalker]

On 8/3/2019 at 7:45 AM, cejmp said:

The Brute is going to have damage output comparable to the scrapper but much deeper mitigation.

No the Brute won't have "much deeper mitigation" Scrappers and Brutes have the same defensive values, the only difference between a Brute and a Scrapper in a farm situation is that the Brute has higher HP, but if you are facing AE mobs specifically tailored to your armor set that won't matter, and with the ATO's scrappers do more damage than Brutes, of course this really doesn't matter in regards to Tanks, but saying that "Brutes are overpowered currently" is completely untrue.

 

On 8/3/2019 at 7:45 AM, cejmp said:

An AT capable of filling 2 different roles with no downside.

 

One of the Roles of a Brute is to tank, that is one of their jobs and before IOs come into play Brutes do have a downside, they have Scrapper Numbers.

On 8/3/2019 at 7:45 AM, cejmp said:

Tanks are fine where they are.

Tanks are mostly fine where they are in terms of SOs/HOs they just don't gain anything out of set bonuses and that is a problem, but that is an IO problem, especially in the ATO sets where they do nothing to boost Tanks in the areas that tanks needed to be boosted.

 

13 hours ago, Leogunner said:

I still stand by my suggestion to just make Tanker AoEs hit more targets

It has been said by the GMs that this is not doable per AT, where I would start with bringing Tanks in line in a Post IO/ATO world, would be for the Proc ATOs to have real offensive value, like the Resistance one also providing a To Hit/Damage buff every stack and for the Absorb proc one to have a (very high)damage pulse when it triggers.

 

PS: I apologize for the lateness of this post, I thought I hit enter.

Edited August 5, 2019 by ryuplaneswalker

[Leogunner]

27 minutes ago, ryuplaneswalker said:

It has been said by the GMs that this is not doable per AT, where I would start with bringing Tanks in line in a Post IO/ATO world, would be for the Proc ATOs to have real offensive value, like the Resistance one also providing a To Hit/Damage buff every stack and for the Absorb proc one to have a (very high)damage pulse when it triggers.

 

PS: I apologize for the lateness of this post, I thought I hit enter.

Whatever tech is used to differentiate Brute/Tanker Storm Kick to give it +def when Scrapper/Stalker Storm Kick does not or whatever is used to differentiate Stalker Dual Blade's One Thousand Cuts (10ft range) from every other One Thousand Cuts (7ft range), use that.

[Marshal_General]

Brutes should have had scrapper resist caps, but had a scaling resist buff built into fury that would start at 25% fury and cap them at 90% resist at higher fury levels.

 

The longer they are in a fight, the tougher they are and the more damaging they become.

[Sura]

1 hour ago, ryuplaneswalker said:

No the Brute won't have "much deeper mitigation" Scrappers and Brutes have the same defensive values, the only difference between a Brute and a Scrapper in a farm situation is that the Brute has higher HP, but if you are facing AE mobs specifically tailored to your armor set that won't matter, and with the ATO's scrappers do more damage than Brutes, of course this really doesn't matter in regards to Tanks, but saying that "Brutes are overpowered currently" is completely untrue.

Maybe that person was thinking about caps?  Brutes have a higher resistance cap (90%) than scrappers (75%), in fact they share the highest resistance cap in the game with Tankers (same with the Defense cap, but the Defense cap is irrelevant).  

[Force]

With the addition of new endgame content post HOs, tanks have definitely become less important than they used to be.  Several things however will never change.  

Agro management will always be needed on the majority of team based activities, perhaps not mob to mob but overall mob control is important.  

A well built Brute may be able to do 90% of what a Tank can do, but a well built tank will take a pounding better than a well built brute.

Different armor sets will always have different strengths, that WP brute might out live that Fire Tank, but compared side by side with respective builts tanks will always be top dog of survivability.

Big fan of IOs, but the advantage for IOs won't go to the highest performer, but to the middle of the pack group (brutes) it will help them close the distance to having tank worthy #s.

[Galaxy Brain]

3 hours ago, Leogunner said:

Whatever tech is used to differentiate Brute/Tanker Storm Kick to give it +def when Scrapper/Stalker Storm Kick does not or whatever is used to differentiate Stalker Dual Blade's One Thousand Cuts (10ft range) from every other One Thousand Cuts (7ft range), use that.

Those are different powers on those ATs, like Brute.MartialArts vs Scrapper.MartialArts. Aggro caps are not per AT.

[Leogunner]

21 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Those are different powers on those ATs, like Brute.MartialArts vs Scrapper.MartialArts. Aggro caps are not per AT.

In talking target caps and ranges. Not aggro caps. 

[AkuTenshiiZero]

Honestly I just want to see Tankers have a higher aggro cap.  Unless I'm mistaken, everyone shares the same cap of 17 right now, correct?  Well...That's absurd.  Tankers literally only exist to hold aggro, they should stand well above everyone else in that regard.

[Steampunkette]

1 hour ago, AkuTenshiiZero said:

Honestly I just want to see Tankers have a higher aggro cap.  Unless I'm mistaken, everyone shares the same cap of 17 right now, correct?  Well...That's absurd.  Tankers literally only exist to hold aggro, they should stand well above everyone else in that regard.

Aggro generation is a function of character, aggro reaction is a function of NPC AI. 

 

There is no way to increase the aggre cap for Tankers. it's not a function that's tied to the character it's a function tied to the way NPCs move, attack, and determine their current morale when it's time to run away. If you go into a mission as a tanker with your taunt aura active you can run through four or five groups then run back to the beginning of the mission and murder the first group. At that point the second group will already be running towards you. When they die in comes the third group. Even if you haven't interacted with them within the last minute there's still aggroed on you but their AI is telling them that they're not allowed to attack or even run over to you because there are too many NPCs fighting.

 

Now let's say you do this and bring a second tank with you. And he runs up to the second group while you're still fighting the first one. They will attack him. Because he is a separate entity on the aggro table that determines their actions. But because the aggro table is based on the NPC, rather than the player, it cannot be increased on a per character basis.

 

Now for the sake of argument let's say there is a way with a reasonable resource increase to cause the aggro check table to behave differently for tankers. How big a group would we want? There are some groups who would say that a tanker should be able to handle to mobs spawns or clusters of enemies. Cool beans, but what does that actually get you?

 

By holding aggro of two spawns you're not increasing the rate that they go down because they're still at Target limit on the number of NPCs hit by a given attack. At best this would allow you to heard slightly more efficiently? But not really because it would take twice as long to kill the pull.

 

Functionally it is impossible. Mechanically it is meaningless. Tactically it is dull.

 

The only time it would really be useful is when somebody accidentally aggros a second spawn. Not only is that a hedge benefit, it would be pretty much entirely useless in the end game content because you're not going to get together 24 players and have only two or three of them be tankers or brutes while everyone else is somehow squishies unless you are specifically building your raid team like that.

 

If tankers are going to have some kind of buff to make them shinier next to brutes it's going to have to be in a different facet than aggro cap.

[Heraclea]

2 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

Aggro generation is a function of character, aggro reaction is a function of NPC AI. 

 

There is no way to increase the aggre cap for Tankers.....

 

Functionally it is impossible. Mechanically it is meaningless. Tactically it is dull.

 

Fairly sure this is not the case.  The current aggro cap of 16 came in in i5, because the devs didn't like the playstyle where the tanker herded whole floors of multiple spawns to be burst down by blaster or other AoE DPS.   The same issue limited the effectiveness of blaster nukes and similar powers to the same number. 

 

There are many situations in 'ordinary' non-herding play where the aggro cap can be a problem.  The multiple ambushes in the Imperious TF are a fairly ordinary example of a situation where protecting the team from all the mobs often isn't possible due to the cap.  My point, though, is that the cap is not an inevitable feature.  I remember when it wasn't there. 

Edited August 5, 2019 by Heraclea

[Steampunkette]

Keywords Heraclea: For Tankers.

 

I'm not sure if you read the rest of the post, but the thrust of it is we can increase the cap for everyone or for no one, but not on a case-by-case basis. The aggro cap is not tied to the character. It is part of the NPC AI scripts.

 

I also remember the days when there was no aggro cap. I also remember the days when there was no target limit. I remember the days when there was no enhancement diversification.

 

That does not mean we can give the tankers an infinite aggro amount while keeping other players limited to a lower aggro count.

[Sura]

This is the relevant post.  From GM Widower.

 

 

[Liam1986]

I picked tanker because I believed in the differences in the AT's as expressed within the AT's descriptions I wanted a tanker because it was an unkillable bodyguard disruptive role I wanted to sacrifice DPS for Survivability Yes tankers get more HP yes they get a higher cap as standard but when you export a tanker who primarily is living his best life in a pack of mobs over to a PVP setting in which at best there is only a few guys on you and even then they are kiting outside your effective taunt/web range you're basically falling way behind a brute when you inevitably do catch up with an enemy or they all start to engage you instead.

 

It would be nice if the Abilities that worked within a group worked instead like a brutes fury so that a prolongued engagement was additively helping your mob ability over time rather then requiring a large pack of mobs to get the benefit of your class.

 

I don't know to be honest I just want there to be a role for me as a tanker to body check and put some pants on anybody trying to harm my team mates and i'd really like it if the tanker was high and above a nightmare to deal with unless there is a coordinated effort in comparison to a brute.

 

 

[Jeuraud]

On 8/4/2019 at 10:10 PM, Heraclea said:

I get the notion that towards the end the Paragon devs thought that tankers were obsolete or undesirable, and deliberately created content where they would bring nothing to teams and not be able to fulfill the role they were originally intended for. 

 

21 hours ago, Force said:

With the addition of new endgame content post HOs, tanks have definitely become less important than they used to be. 

 

Again... the Tank pretty much lost its roll right out of the CoH box, and they have never been "important" in CoH, because CoH broke the Trinity.  With the breaking of the Trinity there are no "important" ATs in CoH and there never has been. I think that is why so many Tank players in CoH are butt-hurt. They are coming from other MMOs where the Tank is a Primary AT/Class in the Trinity, and there is no primary or important AT in CoH.

 

I'm all for making the Tank a different/fun AT to play, but quit trying to make them "important" to the group. To do that you would have to turn CoH into a Trinity MMO, and I'm definitely against that... not that I really see that happening in CoHH.

 

On 8/4/2019 at 2:40 PM, Leogunner said:

I still stand by my suggestion to just make Tanker AoEs hit more targets and more reliably. 

I would go one farther and have every Tank attack have Splash damage, as well as the Taunt of Gauntlet. This would increase their damage output as well as agro, and to me would make them feel more tankey.

Hells I would like to see the Tank be able to reach out and grab a MOB and slam them around like Hulk did to Loki. I played a single player Super Hero game where one of the Sups was able to do this, and use the MOB to slap around the other MOBs. A single target hold and a AoE attack in one power. I think it was Colossus that could do this.

 

 

 

Edited August 6, 2019 by Jeuraud

[Heraclea]

1 hour ago, Jeuraud said:

 

 

Again... the Tank pretty much lost its roll right out of the CoH box, and they have never been "important" in CoH, because CoH broke the Trinity.  With the breaking of the Trinity there are no "important" ATs in CoH and there never has been. I think that is why so many Tank players in CoH are butt-hurt. They are coming from other MMOs where the Tank is a Primary AT/Class in the Trinity, and there is no primary or important AT in CoH.

 

I'm all for making the Tank a different/fun AT to play, but quit trying to make them "important" to the group. To do that you would have to turn CoH into a Trinity MMO, and I'm definitely against that... not that I really see that happening in CoHH.

 

 

Have to agree that this game does not need the MMO Trinity.  That tends to erode communities and turns the tank and healer players into prim donnas.  They no that nothing will get done without them.

 

Making all tanker attacks do splash damage is an interesting idea, but it would make all sorts of content from DfB to the TV station incarnate raid more difficult.

[Kimuji]

Why does half of the suggestions include increased damage? It's like people are begging for the follow up Thread once they realize why it was a bad idea: "Addressing the Brute Tanker Cunnundrum, make Brutes relevant again". And then there will be another thread to 'fix' this "Addressing the Tanker Brute Cunnundrum V3, make Tankers relevant again". Etc...

If there's nothing we can do about aggro cap, maybe there are other leads we can follow. I don't know if that's fesable but what if we could include a specific team threat debuff to Gauntlet? It would only apply to Defenders, Corruptors, Blasters, Controllers and Dominators (basically only to ATs without a defensive set). When a Tanker is in the team they would get a debuff on their threat generation, making them less likely to be targeted. It would help to circumvent the aggro cap, when the Tanker gets past it mobs would preferably target brutes, scrappers, sentiels etc. and go for the support/CC/squishy last.

Edited August 6, 2019 by Kimuji

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

Something I didnt really see but thought seemed obvious is, if one really wants a tank to be the defacto aggro magnet master,and we cant increase the target for tanks specifically, what about a lingering taunt effect like a dot with no dmg but an every increasing amount of aggro generation that also can infect others? Basically the longer the things taunted last the more they hate on the tank and would help attract more aggro, call it the cry for help effect or something.