What The Hell Is "Doublehit"? - A Hybrid Assault Guide

[Unknown Magi]

During my testing, if I summoned the pets *then* turned on the toggle, I didn't see doublehits.  Traditionally, pets check certain things at spawn times (like Enhancements) and then "snapshot" them for the duration of the pet's life (I think they may be rechecked at zoning for MM pets, unsure).  My theory here is that Doublehit is being applied similarly, such that if you turn on doublehit post summoning the pet doesn't catch it because it already snapshotted.  I'm unsure why this allows MM pets to get it again later when you reactivate, but it's probably because there's an "If doublehit active" clause similar to the if power active clauses used elsewhere (like AR snipe and targeting drone for example)

[Maxzero]

30 minutes ago, Unknown Magi said:

During my testing, if I summoned the pets *then* turned on the toggle, I didn't see doublehits.  Traditionally, pets check certain things at spawn times (like Enhancements) and then "snapshot" them for the duration of the pet's life (I think they may be rechecked at zoning for MM pets, unsure).  My theory here is that Doublehit is being applied similarly, such that if you turn on doublehit post summoning the pet doesn't catch it because it already snapshotted.  I'm unsure why this allows MM pets to get it again later when you reactivate, but it's probably because there's an "If doublehit active" clause similar to the if power active clauses used elsewhere (like AR snipe and targeting drone for example)

 

It is quite a troublesome issue to be honest.

[Griffin]

Someone else asked but I am also curious about how these play with pseudo pets (I.e. rain type powers). I am I trying to decide which way to go for my ice/cold. My gut says radial, but core may be good to increase AoE damage from ice storm and blizzard. 

 

Does sleet count since it technically does damage?

[Ljhalfbreed]

On 8/6/2019 at 8:15 AM, Griffin said:

Someone else asked but I am also curious about how these play with pseudo pets (I.e. rain type powers). I am I trying to decide which way to go for my ice/cold. My gut says radial, but core may be good to increase AoE damage from ice storm and blizzard. 

 

Does sleet count since it technically does damage?

 

One thing I've noticed is that on a rad/fire brute, my irradiated ground and burn both have chances to proc things like Degenerative, and therefore should proc doublehits. However, I would assume that doublehits from radial would probably pale in comparison to a flat damage increase to core for those DoTs. +75% damage over the life of a power could translate into more direct DPS than a few occasional hits of doublehit for low single/double-digit damage. 

 

of course, this depends on the powers, your AT, how close you are to damage cap, etc all down the line. I'd use Hopeling's google sheet to get a ballpark idea as to which would be better, then work outward from there. 

[Griffin]

3 hours ago, Ljhalfbreed said:

 

One thing I've noticed is that on a rad/fire brute, my irradiated ground and burn both have chances to proc things like Degenerative, and therefore should proc doublehits. However, I would assume that doublehits from radial would probably pale in comparison to a flat damage increase to core for those DoTs. +75% damage over the life of a power could translate into more direct DPS than a few occasional hits of doublehit for low single/double-digit damage. 

 

of course, this depends on the powers, your AT, how close you are to damage cap, etc all down the line. I'd use Hopeling's google sheet to get a ballpark idea as to which would be better, then work outward from there. 

You are right, but my question was more can the rains individual ticks proc cores damage stacks?

[Djinn_Tonic]

Say you have an all smash or lethal attack set and you're fighting things with S/L resist. Could Radial's energy damage (having a different damage type) be more valuable than % damage increase from Core in such a situation?

[Hopeling]

Yes, damage type is also a consideration.

[Bopper]

@Hopeling, I may have some PPM and coefficients for your DoubleHit calculations. These have not been tested however, so take it with a grain of salt.

 

T2 (Radial Genome): x0.2,   2 PPM

T3 (Partial Core Graft): x0.1,  4 PPM

T3 (Partial Radial Graft): x0.2,   4 PPM

T3 (Total Radial Graft): x0.3,   4 PPM

T4 (Radial Embodiment): x0.4,   6 PPM

 

So it appears the PPM is based on Tier (T2 =2, T3 = 4, T4 = 6), and the coefficient is based on how far "radial" (to the right of the tree) you go.

 

Interestingly the T2 Radial Genome does twice the damage of the T3 Partial Core Graft, however it has half the PPM, so it evens out.

 

 

[InvaderStych]

Thought I should check in here before I go starting a whole thread on the topic.  I've been running the Radial side on a Savage Melee Brute, and I am seeing some strange variations in damage with Savage Leap.  I first noticed it at the T4 tier, then I went ahead and rebuilt a T3 (Total) and seeing the same behavior.

 

In short the "Double-hit" T4 proc in Savage Leap will either do around 190-225 or it will do around 49-55 when it fires. T3 Total seems to do in the 150ish range or in the 40ish range. These numbers are from even-level (ish, some were +1) Carnies.  I first started noticing the variation running an arc full of them.  Anyway, mob type, fury level, etc don't seem to have much effect on the behavior.

 

Attaching a screen shot, taken from a single group of 3 carnies.  This with Total Radial Graft - when I checked to see if it behaved the same as Embodiment, which it does.

 

 

Basically two Attendants and a Fencer.  (The -Res must not have fired on the first Attendant)  As you can see the first Attendant and the Fencer take 37.29 from the Hybrid proc, while the second Attendant takes a whopping 149.19!  Damage from the actual attack is at the bottom of the screenshot for all three targets.  They do always log in that order, no idea why, lol.

 

So, before I go down some rabbit-hole of collecting screen shots reporting a bug that might not be a bug, has anyone seen this?

 

If I am using the spreadsheet right, it looks like dmg should be about 61.2 as a base from the T4 proc.  Very possible I am not doing that right though, lol.

 

I'll be honest, seeing the triple-digit proc dmg with Leap the first few times at T2 really sold me on using it, but the inconsistency might mean reconsidering.

 

Edited June 16, 2020 by InvaderStych

[Bopper]

3 hours ago, InvaderStych said:

Thought I should check in here before I go starting a whole thread on the topic.  I've been running the Radial side on a Savage Melee Brute, and I am seeing some strange variations in damage with Savage Leap.  I first noticed it at the T4 tier, then I went ahead and rebuilt a T3 (Total) and seeing the same behavior.

 

In short the "Double-hit" T4 proc in Savage Leap will either do around 190-225 or it will do around 49-55 when it fires. T3 Total seems to do in the 150ish range or in the 40ish range. These numbers are from even-level (ish, some were +1) Carnies.  I first started noticing the variation running an arc full of them.  Anyway, mob type, fury level, etc don't seem to have much effect on the behavior.

 

Attaching a screen shot, taken from a single group of 3 carnies.  This with Total Radial Graft - when I checked to see if it behaved the same as Embodiment, which it does.

 

 

Basically two Attendants and a Fencer.  (The -Res must not have fired on the first Attendant)  As you can see the first Attendant and the Fencer take 37.29 from the Hybrid proc, while the second Attendant takes a whopping 149.19!  Damage from the actual attack is at the bottom of the screenshot for all three targets.  They do always log in that order, no idea why, lol.

 

So, before I go down some rabbit-hole of collecting screen shots reporting a bug that might not be a bug, has anyone seen this?

 

If I am using the spreadsheet right, it looks like dmg should be about 61.2 as a base from the T4 proc.  Very possible I am not doing that right though, lol.

 

I'll be honest, seeing the triple-digit proc dmg with Leap the first few times at T2 really sold me on using it, but the inconsistency might mean reconsidering.

 

You will notice the bigger number (149.19) is 4x bigger than the smaller number (37.29). You will also notice the Area Factor of the PBAoE effect is 1+0.15 x 20' = 4.00. What I believe is happening, because your attack targets a ST to teleport, the damage is being calculated for the intended target using an Area Factor of 1. Then when you teleport you execute the PBAoE effect that has an AreaFactor of 4 which divides the damage by 4.

 

So it appears this is not a bug, but I'm not sure if it's working as intended. As far as I know, the Teleport does not do damage, so I don't know what the Assault would proc from that effect. But I also don't see getting two double hits on your intended target, so I suppose it is working as intended (or you got very unlucky to miss what would be a 90% chance to proc). Hope that helps.

[InvaderStych]

8 hours ago, Bopper said:

You will notice the bigger number (149.19) is 4x bigger than the smaller number (37.29). You will also notice the Area Factor of the PBAoE effect is 1+0.15 x 20' = 4.00. What I believe is happening, because your attack targets a ST to teleport, the damage is being calculated for the intended target using an Area Factor of 1. Then when you teleport you execute the PBAoE effect that has an AreaFactor of 4 which divides the damage by 4.

 

So it appears this is not a bug, but I'm not sure if it's working as intended. As far as I know, the Teleport does not do damage, so I don't know what the Assault would proc from that effect. But I also don't see getting two double hits on your intended target, so I suppose it is working as intended (or you got very unlucky to miss what would be a 90% chance to proc). Hope that helps.

 

Actually, I had not noticed the 4x difference, but now that you mention it the explanation does make sense.  My only note would be that Mids lists the radius for Brute Svg-Leap to be 15', not 20'.  Mids typo?  I can't check in game until servers are back up.

 

I did have a feeling that this was unique to Leap - yet another aspect of its pseudo-mysterious personality - rather than an outright bug.

 

I'll try to watch more closely to see if the pattern - targeted mob gets the AF1 proc while all others in range get the AF4 proc - for the time being which would unscientifically support your very likely theory.

 

Agreed on it not proc'ing twice, even on the main target - have never seen that happen and I've been watching it fairly closely the last week or so.

 

Hypothetically, any thoughts on the expected base damage for Savage Leap at 0% enhanced recharge?  If I did the spreadsheet right, then ~61.2 would be in line with the AF1 vs AF4 notion.

Edited June 16, 2020 by InvaderStych

[Bopper]

4 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

 

Actually, I had not noticed the 4x difference, but now that you mention it the explanation does make sense.  My only note would be that Mids lists the radius for Brute Svg-Leap to be 15', not 20'.  Mids typo?  I can't check in game until servers are back up.

 

I did have a feeling that this was unique to Leap - yet another aspect of its pseudo-mysterious personality - rather than an outright bug.

 

I'll try to watch more closely to see if the pattern - targeted mob gets the AF1 proc while all others in range get the AF4 proc - for the time being which would unscientifically support your very likely theory.

 

Agreed on it not proc'ing twice, even on the main target - have never seen that happen and I've been watching it fairly closely the last week or so.

 

Hypothetically, any thoughts on the expected base damage for Savage Leap at 0% enhanced recharge?  If I did the spreadsheet right, then ~61.2 would be in line with the AF1 vs AF4 notion.

I checked the radius last night and saw that it was 20 feet, but I dont know if I looked up Brute or Tanker. Either way, I'd expect them both to have the same radius.

 

Let me check my calculations on the expected damage. I dont know how I'd compare it to your combat log as I dont know the resistance of the target at time of attack. Was it debuffed...was the enemy a different level, etc.

 

So, if you can get a power analyzer (and turn on time stamps for your combat log, just so I have a warm fuzzy on when what happens), and show me the level of the enemy, the resistance before attacking, your level (with incarnate shift), then show the doublehit damage from the attack...then I can see how well the expected damage lines up and see if something is correct or not.

[Bopper]

@InvaderStych

and to follow up on my last post, I dont know if I use 40s for the calculation, or if it's capped at 30s. So I'll need to figure out if Hopeling is right if 30s is the clamp for calculating the maximum damage. I suspect he is correct, but will need your data to help verify.

Edited June 16, 2020 by Bopper

[InvaderStych]

11 minutes ago, Bopper said:

@InvaderStych

and to follow up on my last post, I dont know if I use 40s for the calculation, or if it's capped at 30s. So I'll need to figure out if Hopeling is right if 30s is the clamp for calculating the maximum damage. I suspect he is correct, but will need your data to help verify.

 

Noted.  Couple Questions.

 

Are Time Stamps easy to find in options, or is there a trick I should know for turning those on?

 

Is there a way to pipe the combat log to a text file to simplify things?

 

I have a tab that's just Damage Delivered, do you need other console output and/or if I can pipe a combat log to text, is it possible to do so with just this tab?

 

Finally, should I eliminate anything else?  IE: currently running T4 musculature core, I could pull that out (losing incarnate shift in the process) if it helps to either simplify the math or eliminate a potential behavior variable.  Ditto for the -Res proc in leap.  I could stow that for the time being as well.

[Bopper]

7 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

 

Noted.  Couple Questions.

 

Are Time Stamps easy to find in options, or is there a trick I should know for turning those on?

 

Is there a way to pipe the combat log to a text file to simplify things?

 

I have a tab that's just Damage Delivered, do you need other console output and/or if I can pipe a combat log to text, is it possible to do so with just this tab?

 

Finally, should I eliminate anything else?  IE: currently running T4 musculature core, I could pull that out (losing incarnate shift in the process) if it helps to either simplify the math or eliminate a potential behavior variable.  Ditto for the -Res proc in leap.  I could stow that for the time being as well.

The slotting is good and what you had showing in your combat log is good. You could add Pet Damage Delivered, but I don't think it will do anything in this case...but doesn't hurt to add.

 

As for adding time stamps, go to Menu>Options>Windows. Scroll down to Beta Features and update your Chat Timestamps to 24-hour w/ seconds.

 

As for saving chat logs to a text document, again go to Menu>Options>Windows. Scroll down to Chat and update your Log Chat to Enabled.

 

Your logged chat will show up in your CoH folder (where you installed the game). Go to that folder and look for one that shows your username (for me, the folder is called Bopper). In that folder is a folder called "logs" and that is where you will find your chat logs. They are created daily and they will append as you play. To open a chat log, you would need to exit the game (as it is writing to the file while you're playing...so closing the game will close the file).

[InvaderStych]

Okay, (@Bopper) here goes.  Hopefully I got this right.  Or near as makes no difference to ... 

 

First go round I forgot about the Power Analyzer portion of the program, so I had to give myself a do-over, heh.

 

Chat log grabs everything in bulk - which I assume most here already knew - but that gave me a chance to notice a few things I didn't know.  Which I'm spoiler tagging since it is sort of tangential ...

 

 

 

First, that Leap fires twice.  Once as an auto-hit (the teleport) ...

<see quote 1 below, dunno why it moved down there>

And again with a to-hit roll for the AoE ...

<see quote 2 below, dunno why it moved down there>

Which I imagine isn't news to the group, but it does support the Area Factor theory mentioned above.  I thought it might also help explain why the target takes proc damage even if the "Savage Leap AoE power" misses, but I think that happens on everything in range.  Not 100% sure on that.


Second thing I noticed is that all of the procs in Leap are logged in the same order every time ...

<see quote 3 below, dunno why it moved down there>

... which corresponds to "Right to Left" in terms slot placement ...

 


... which is interesting, but probably not of much practical use since everything is firing pretty much at the same time.  I might move the -Res proc to the far right just to satisfy my OCD though.

 

 

 

2020-06-19 09:44:08 HIT Eclipse Nightwolf Champion! Your Savage Leap power is autohit.

 

 

 

2020-06-19 09:44:08 HIT Eclipse Nightwolf Champion! Your Savage Leap AoE power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 86.63.

 

 

 

2020-06-19 09:44:08 You hit Vortex Cor Leonis Sonic with your Obliteration: Chance for Smashing Damage for 64.57 points of Smashing damage.
2020-06-19 09:44:08 You reduce your targets damage resistance temporarily
2020-06-19 09:44:08 You reduce your targets damage resistance temporarily
2020-06-19 09:44:08 You reduce your targets damage resistance temporarily
2020-06-19 09:44:08 You reduce your targets damage resistance temporarily
2020-06-19 09:44:08 You reduce your targets damage resistance temporarily
2020-06-19 09:44:08 You reduce your targets damage resistance temporarily
2020-06-19 09:44:08 You reduce your targets damage resistance temporarily
2020-06-19 09:44:08 You reduce your targets damage resistance temporarily
2020-06-19 09:44:08 You hit Vortex Cor Leonis Sonic with your Eradication: Chance for Energy Damage for 64.57 points of Energy damage.
2020-06-19 09:44:08 You hit Vortex Cor Leonis Sonic with your Armageddon: Chance for Fire Damage for 96.37 points of Fire damage.
2020-06-19 09:44:08 You hit Vortex Cor Leonis Sonic with your Perfect Zinger: Chance for Psionic Damage for 64.57 points of Psionic damage.
2020-06-19 09:44:08 You hit Vortex Cor Leonis Sonic with your Doublehit for 49.72 points of Energy damage.
2020-06-19 09:44:08 You hit Vortex Cor Leonis Sonic with your Reactive Interface for 12.04 points of Fire damage over time.

 

 

Anyway.  Back to Double-Hit.

 

I used a Council Tip mission.  Ended up running against +1s (52s) - more details in the logfile. Only the Wolves and the Bots had any resistances:

 

 

 

 



 

 



 
 

 

 

Logfile:

 

chatlog 2020-06-19 - Edited.txt

 

Hope that helps figure recharge time question. Let me know if you have any questions or want the unedited log.

 

As far as Double-Hit in Savage Leap: after logging it I think you're basically exactly right.  Every time the higher damage number is on the enemy targeted by the "auto-hit" teleport.  Every other enemy in range takes what I am assuming is the "expected" damage for a power with a similar Area Factor.

 

Interestingly, I think I saw a situation in one of the earlier runs where the AoE missed on the "Teleport Target" causing the Double-Hit proc to not fire.  Which is strange if it is basing damage on the teleport, but failing to fire if the AoE misses.  I should still have that log and might be able to find that moment if looking at it is useful.

 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2020 by InvaderStych

[Bopper]

44 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

Hope that helps figure recharge time question. Let me know if you have any questions or want the unedited log.

Great work and findings. This certainly explains why everyone loves procs in savage leap, double dipping with proc rolls is tasty. 

 

As for the damage from Assault-Radial's "Double-Hit", glad to see the formula in the OP matches what we see in the log. Using a cap of 30 seconds for the recharge (Savage Leap has 40s recharge, but we cap it to 30), we get 0.4x0.2x(0.8x40+1.8)x107.09 / 4 = 221.03/4 = 55.26

 

I noticed in your log the Epic Proc did 96.37 damage, which is 90% of 107.1, which is expected if facing a +1 enemy. So expecting the same 90% for double-hit gives us 55.26 x 0.9 = 49.73. In the log, we saw 49.72 repeatedly, so it checks out.

[kiramon]

So for something like a stalker, is Core or Radial better? (Like, elec stalker for example - which has a lot of AoEs, but is a high damage AT not likely to be at cap? Or will it hit it with build ups?) 

 

[Omega-202]

1 hour ago, kiramon said:

So for something like a stalker, is Core or Radial better? (Like, elec stalker for example - which has a lot of AoEs, but is a high damage AT not likely to be at cap? Or will it hit it with build ups?) 

 

In average team play, I find it difficult to hit the damage cap with any of the 500% cap ATs, unless there's a Kin on the team or you have perma Soul Drain available.  

 

Basic scenario for a Stalker: 

100% base

130% from enhancements + Alpha

40% passive from IO sets and Assault Hybrid's "always on" (guesstimate taking the average from a few builds I have) 

80% from BU (10 s)

80% from Gaussian's (5 s, 90% proc chance)

= 430%, for 5 seconds; 350% for 10 seconds; 270% otherwise.  

 

Unless you've got a Kin, a ton of Assaults running or you're running solo and can keep a bunch of red insps flowing via "combine and use" binds, you're going to have plenty of headspace for the damage buff over double hit.  The damage cap is rarely going to be the determining factor.

[Bopper]

5 hours ago, kiramon said:

So for something like a stalker, is Core or Radial better? (Like, elec stalker for example - which has a lot of AoEs, but is a high damage AT not likely to be at cap? Or will it hit it with build ups?) 

 

Typically, high base damage ATs (such as stalker) would benefit more from Core. However, if you ever want an exact answer, I have a tool that allows you to put in your numbers to see which Assault Hybrid option would work better for a particular power.  One thing you can always be rest assured on, Assault Radial will not be limited by the damage cap. But if you mainly solo or not in teams that buff your damage excessively, Core likely will win out for you.

Edited July 27, 2020 by Bopper