Suggestions on Mind Control (and other powers?)

[Ghostpilot]

GM ArachnosPhobia helpfully recommended that I post this here, so here we go!

 

Mind Control is the sole control set without a pet.  The original thought back in the day was that Mind Control's capstone power: Mass Confusion, was kind of like having multiple pets.  However, back when the blanket changes were made to AoE controls, Mass Confusion was heavily impacted by this.  On top of this, it carries a stigma because of how XP is calculated, as confused enemies who hit each other reduce the amount of potential XP.

 

Compounding the issue further, Plant Control came along with Seeds of Confusion, which is a level 8 power that is substantially better than Mind Control's Mass Confusion which is gained at level 32.  To compare the two powers.

 

 

While I feel that Seeds of Confusion is at a good place and would like for it to remain as it is, Mass Confusion could use some love.  One option would be to boost Mass Confusion's figures, but I would like to propose a different, more unique, solution.  But first, some housekeeping.

 

Mind Control has two AoE hold powers: Telekinesis and Total Domination.

 

Telekinesis is a unique power, but its extreme endurance cost and built-in repel makes it both difficult to control and very situational.  A quick fix would be to lessen or remove the repel effect and potentially lessen the endurance cost, thus broadening its ability to be used while keeping its unique feel.

 

Total Domination is the typical AoE hold with nothing special about it. Possibly even undertuned compared to other holds as Mind Control lacks a rider effect (such as the -Defense in Earth, -Movement in Ice, etc).  It's also somewhat redundant with Telekinesis (especially if it were to be changed).  As such, I propose that Mass Confusion takes its place in the set.

 

And in the top spot vacated by the old Mass Confusion, we have the new Total Domination!

 

Your mental fortitude overwhelms the enemy's mind: causing your will to become their own.  When used upon a minion, lieutenant, or boss enemy, that enemy is defeated and becomes your pet.  The entity can be healed and buffed like any teammate.  The effect is permanent until it is defeated, at which point, another must found to take its place.  Only one entity can be controlled at a time.  Attempting to use this when a pet is controlled shall cause the first pet to be replaced.  Very Long.

• A Dominated enemy would scale to the level of the user (as per other Controller pets).  Also (somewhat) normalizing Minion / LTs / Bosses to make them all viable.
  
• This power wouldn't be usable on Giant Monsters, Elite Bosses, nor Arch Villains as their wills are too strong.
  
• The reason for the enemy being instantly defeated when used would be to prevent any potential issue with mission completions that require a particular enemy to be defeated.
  

While this may seem strong on the surface, there are some points to consider:

• The Mind Controller would have to first find an enemy to dominate (as opposed to other controllers who can summon their pets at will).
  
• It would open up Powersets / individual powers normally not appealing to a Mind Controller who may want to solo (presently, powers that target allies are unusable to a solo Mind Controller).
  
• It would also cause the Mind Control user to have to adapt to the situation as they'd have to use what's available. Adding some variety to combat.
  
• And some Mind Control users may venture out to various places if there's a particular enemy they'd like to make a pet and bring along with them.
  

I think that covers about everything.  I'm not sure how readily the CoH engine could support an idea like this, but I did want to put the idea out into the universe and see what came of it.  At the very least, I hope it would lead to a second look to Mind Control and some of the other, lesser-used powersets out there.

 

Thanks for reading, and for bringing CoH back to life!

[Player2]

I like everything I read here except for removing the repel cost of telekinesis.  I actually LIKE that, because I can herd a particularly powerful foe where I want it, such as into an AoE effect or whatever, but usually just AWAY from me.  Definitely would like to see the Endurance cost come down a little on it, though.

 

As for your Total Domination replacement idea, and moving Mass Confusion down, I'd be all for it.  Mind Control has always been under-powered compared to other control sets, especially in how the confuse effect robs you of XP.

[Ghostpilot]

Thanks for the reply!  With regard to the repel portion of Telekinesis, it'd be interesting if it pushed the enemy back if you moved forward.  That way you'd have the best of both: holds the enemy at bay when you're standing still and pushes them away (for herding) if you move towards them.  That way, it'll expand the situations in which Telekinesis can be used while still keeping some of its current functionality.

[Redlynne]

Telekinesis is a unique power, but its extreme endurance cost and built-in repel makes it both difficult to control and very situational.  A quick fix would be to lessen or remove the repel effect and potentially lessen the endurance cost, thus broadening its ability to be used while keeping its unique feel.

 

City of Data: Telekinesis

 

Telekinesis suffers from what amounts to a TRIPLE WHAMMY put on it by Cryptic/Paragon Studios when they implemented the Control NERF that included putting caps on aggro.  Whereas before the nerf, Telekinesis could affect an unlimited number of $Targets within the 10ft radius Sphere around your anchor target, which is when Telekinesis REALLY started to shine ... after the nerf Telekinesis could only affect a maximum of five $Targets.

 

FIVE.

 

This meant that although Total Domination (and other "mass" control powers like it) had a max target cap of 16 ... Telekinesis was nerfed into the ground with a max target cap of only FIVE targets affected, maximum.

 

FIVE.

 

That meant you couldn't do THIS anymore ... (yes, I was playing at 640x480 resolution back in those days) ...

 

 

I count TEN Skyraiders being held/repelled by Telekinesis in that image.

Not five ... TEN.

 

Needless to say, all efforts to correct this massively unfair (and totally unnecessary) "fix" to Telekinesis fell on deaf ears at Cryptic/Paragon Studios ... even though the actual solution to this specific problem involved changing a SINGLE parameter for the power.

 

Step 1: delete "5" from max targets table cell

Step 2: replace with "16" in the max targets table cell

Step 3: DONE

 

Apparently, this was "too much work" or something to get done in multiple years after the nerf ruined Telekinesis as a MASS Hold power.  Yes, I'm still bitter that no one on staff thought this was worth the effort it would take to fix.  They made a mistake and resolved never to correct it.  Thanks guys!

 

 

 

Now the bigger problem with Telekinesis was that it was originally balanced around the notion that it could hold an unlimited number of targets within a 10ft AoE around the anchor $Target, with "extras" within that AoE able to fall out of that radius if the Repel aspect of the power allowed them all to drift too far apart from each other ... which was quite possible in the absence of convenient terrain to "corner pack" them all into (see above picture for reference of exactly this).  That's because the Repel always moved Foes AWAY from the CASTER, and since $Targets refused to stay in a nice straight line (forever) this meant that over time they'd essentially "drift apart" on different vectors unless there was some kind of terrain to push them together into.

 

That doesn't necessarily have to be the case anymore, though.  One of the tools that became available long after Telekinesis was put into the game was the ability for powers to open up OTHER POWERS, like with Kheldian Forms and later Swap Ammo in Dual Pistols and so on.

 

What Telekinesis REALLY needs to be is a 2-in-1 power where the power pick opens up 2 subsidiary powers, both of which would be Toggles.

• The main power would be a Hold Toggle that does everything Telekinesis does right now MINUS the Repel effect.
  
• The second (sub) power would be a Repel Toggle that applies the Repel effect of Telekinesis only onto the $Target affected by Telekinesis (so use the same anchor) plus a 10ft radius around that $Target.
  
• Furthmore, the second (sub) power for the Repel effect could only be Toggled on while the main (sub) power Hold Toggle effect was toggled on.  As soon as the Hold of Telekinesis is detoggled, the Repel of Telekinesis is automatically detoggled with it and both powers go into Recharge (base 60 seconds for each).

This way, you'd be able to toggle on/off the Repel effect of Telekinesis "on demand" rather that suffering from an (unwanted) "Always On" condition (that doesn't help you any most of the time).

 

The way that I would implement this would be to alter the Hold Toggle side of Telekinesis to make the Repel effect conditional upon a designated buff effect being put onto the caster (no buff on Caster, no Repel effect added to the 10ft radius Target AoE Telekinesis).  You then just make the Repel Toggle add this designated buff add to the Caster.

 

The Endurance Cost of Telekinesis on City of Data is 1.56 END per 0.5 sec activation.

I would recommend splitting this not in a 1:1 fashion of two halves, but rather into a 2:1 ratio of thirds.

• Make the main power with the Hold Toggle cost 1.04 END per 0.5 sec activation.
  
• Make the second (sub) power with the Repel Toggle (self buff enable) cost 0.52 END per 0.5 sec activation.
  
• Total cost with both Toggles active ... 1.56 END per 0.5 sec activation.

 

 

And THAT is how you take a power that was nerfed into the ground by Cryptic/Paragon Studios and REFACTOR it to yield the exact same performance in a MUCH more controllable state that makes the power actually worth taking (and using), rather than keeping it as an annoying novelty that hardly anyone makes use of and which is extremely prone to making a mess of herding in team situations.

 

Your move ... Dev Team.

[Scrapulous]

Do you see any problems with giving mind controllers the ability to defeat bosses in one shot? Depending on the recharge time, the most optimal high end use for this might be removing a single troublesome boss from every other spawn in an eight man team, for instance.

[Trickshooter]

Total Domination is the typical AoE hold with nothing special about it. Possibly even undertuned compared to other holds as Mind Control lacks a rider effect (such as the -Defense in Earth, -Movement in Ice, etc).

 

Can't get in to the rest too much, as I don't have much experience with the set, however, I think the intended secondary effect of Mind Control was the lack of positional attack typing, so the only way to avoid Mind Control's effects were to have either a buff to Base Defense or a source of Psionic Defense. It's not great, but... it's there.

[Tidbit]

My first 50 and main character was a Mind/FF troller.  At first I lamented the fact that there were no pets for this character.  But as I got other petted trollers to 50 and played the endgame content - incarnate stuff, etc, I decided that pets really were pointless.  Either they are somewhat durable but did little damage, or they were so squishy that they were not long for the world. So I guess it really depends on your play style.

[Vanden]

Back on the Live servers I had a Mind/Psi permaDom, and I don't think Mind Control needs a true pet. If the set's damage is lacking I think a better option is to just boost the damage of Mesmerize, Dominate, and Levitate. Also, just as a QoL, remove the delay on damage from Levitate. Before i6 it was synched with the moment that an enemy hit the ground, but since they added ragdoll it never synchs properly.

 

What I think the set could really use is a change so that Interface Incarnate abilities that add DoTs to your attacks don't affect Mesmerize, so taking those abilities doesn't make Mesmerize useless.

[Trickshooter]

What I think the set could really use is a change so that Interface Incarnate abilities that add DoTs to your attacks don't affect Mesmerize, so taking those abilities doesn't make Mesmerize useless.

 

Ice Control would also like this for it's AoE Sleep that includes a teeny tiny pointless tic of damage.

 

Also, that single tic of damage seems to be the only reason Flash Freeze recharges in 90 seconds, instead of 45 seconds like Mind Control's Mass Hypnosis.

[Generator]

Back on the Live servers I had a Mind/Psi permaDom, and I don't think Mind Control needs a true pet. If the set's damage is lacking I think a better option is to just boost the damage of Mesmerize, Dominate, and Levitate. Also, just as a QoL, remove the delay on damage from Levitate. Before i6 it was synched with the moment that an enemy hit the ground, but since they added ragdoll it never synchs properly.

 

What I think the set could really use is a change so that Interface Incarnate abilities that add DoTs to your attacks don't affect Mesmerize, so taking those abilities doesn't make Mesmerize useless.

 

Another once and future Mind/Psi here, and basically QFT.  Well stated.

[Ghostpilot]

Telekinesis is a unique power, but its extreme endurance cost and built-in repel makes it both difficult to control and very situational.  A quick fix would be to lessen or remove the repel effect and potentially lessen the endurance cost, thus broadening its ability to be used while keeping its unique feel.

 

City of Data: Telekinesis

 

Telekinesis suffers from what amounts to a TRIPLE WHAMMY put on it by Cryptic/Paragon Studios when they implemented the Control NERF that included putting caps on aggro.  Whereas before the nerf, Telekinesis could affect an unlimited number of $Targets within the 10ft radius Sphere around your anchor target, which is when Telekinesis REALLY started to shine ... after the nerf Telekinesis could only affect a maximum of five $Targets.

 

FIVE.

 

This meant that although Total Domination (and other "mass" control powers like it) had a max target cap of 16 ... Telekinesis was nerfed into the ground with a max target cap of only FIVE targets affected, maximum.

 

FIVE.

 

That meant you couldn't do THIS anymore ... (yes, I was playing at 640x480 resolution back in those days) ...

 

 

I count TEN Skyraiders being held/repelled by Telekinesis in that image.

Not five ... TEN.

 

Needless to say, all efforts to correct this massively unfair (and totally unnecessary) "fix" to Telekinesis fell on deaf ears at Cryptic/Paragon Studios ... even though the actual solution to this specific problem involved changing a SINGLE parameter for the power.

 

Step 1: delete "5" from max targets table cell

Step 2: replace with "16" in the max targets table cell

Step 3: DONE

 

Good catch!  I hadn't known this about Telekinesis (or at least hadn't recalled it).  Yeah, even in ideal scenarios, it doesn't feel great in it's current state (especially as enemies tire of being controlled and eventually just walk out of it).

 

Do you see any problems with giving mind controllers the ability to defeat bosses in one shot? Depending on the recharge time, the most optimal high end use for this might be removing a single troublesome boss from every other spawn in an eight man team, for instance.

 

I'd considered that, but I figured it was a risk worth talking as it'd be a real bummer for a mission get messed up because of a power.  Again, that portion was offered as a solution to a potential problem.  There may well be a more elegant mechanical solution that may not involve that (which I'm all for).

 

Back on the Live servers I had a Mind/Psi permaDom, and I don't think Mind Control needs a true pet. If the set's damage is lacking I think a better option is to just boost the damage of Mesmerize, Dominate, and Levitate.

 

What I think the set could really use is a change so that Interface Incarnate abilities that add DoTs to your attacks don't affect Mesmerize, so taking those abilities doesn't make Mesmerize useless.

 

I think something to keep in mind is that the same powerset in the hands of two different AT's can be vastly different.  The damage of Mind Control on a Dominator feels okay because Dominator has inherently good damaging scaling.

 

 

Dominator has substantially better damage scaling than Controllers out of the box, and is supported by an offensive secondary.  Containment was created with the notion of making Controller's damage competitive, but this is often not the case because setting up Containment isn't an easy thing to do, and only effects a few powers out of each set. 

 

Containment only effects targets that are Held, Slept, Disoriented, and Immobilized.  This doesn't apply to Knockdowns/ups/backs, Confuses, Slows, or Terrifies.  And the Containment damage has to come directly from the Controller, not pets or pseudo pets.  So it ends up being an archetype mechanic that the archetype it's designed for can't use much of the time.  It's why those who want damaging Controllers tend to steer towards pet / pseudo-pet-centric sets like Illusion, Fire, Plant, and Darkness: not only is it easier, the scaling is better, and the pets are a force multiplier.

 

Once Permadom is introduced, it makes Dominators significantly better controllers than Controllers since it doubles magnitude, boosts their durations, and while providing the Dominator with status protections.

 

Goodness, I'm almost talking myself out of ever making a Controller again.

 

But I digress, going back to Mind, as soon as DoTs or AoEs come down, 1/3rd of the Mind Controller's powerset (Mesmerize, Mass Hypnosis, and Terrify) is rendered irrelevant as they break on damage (though this is slightly less of an issue on Terrify).  Which doubly impacts Controllers because of the lack of Containment.

 

Further, 1/3rd of the powerset has an accuracy penalty (Total Domination and Mass Confusion has a -20% accuracy penalty, while Terrify has a -10% accuracy penalty).  With both Total Domination and Mass Confusion both having long cooldowns (4 minutes), a Controller feels the need to have either skip these powers entirely or 4-6 slot them with Accuracy and Recharge SO's before they can get any use from them.  Enhancement Diversification isn't really a thing that exists for a lot of AoE controls because they require so much investment for the powers to become usable.  I can understand the cooldowns needing to be somewhat lengthy because of the effect, but the accuracy should be at least baseline 1.00X.  One should slot a power make it better - not to make it usable.

 

Being excited about a new power only to use it, see a string of "Misses" over a bunch of enemies and for the power to go into 4 minute cooldown while the enemies turn to mow you down causes a little part of you to die inside.

 

Also, just as a QoL, remove the delay on damage from Levitate. Before i6 it was synched with the moment that an enemy hit the ground, but since they added ragdoll it never synchs properly.

 

Huge, blaring sirens on this.  In re-acquainting myself with Mind and Gravity again the past week, this would be a very welcomed QoL change.  I can't tell you how many wasted cooldowns and endurance myself and allies have wasted on enemies I've hit with Mind's Levitate and Gravity's Lift because of these power's 2-second delay in dealing its damage. 

 

In addition, as more a general change, it would be a nice change if the DoT damage from the single target immobilizes that are the starter powers for most Controller sets (Shadowy Binds, Stone Prison, Crush, etc.) dealt its damage over 5 seconds instead of the current 9.2 seconds.  Presently, with no enhancements, it is possible to cycle these powers 3 times before the damage from the first one completes.  As such, it makes the damage rating for them rather misleading because it's dealt so slowly.  These powers are often skipped anyway, and I thought this would make them a little more appealing.