An Update from The Homecoming Team

[Rathulfr]

3 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

We are going round and round...I'll just repeat the following:

1.) I'm going to assume Homecoming is NOT a tax-exempt or registered non-profit since they have yet to provide those details...Saying you are going to do a thing doesn't make it so until you've done it...So far, there is no Homecoming Server registered with the IRS as Tax Exempt...nor are they registered as a non-profit in my state...

 

2.) Nothing they are doing with NCSoft will change their legal status...thus they are staying a for-profit SMLLC until stated otherwise

 

The IRS Tax Code doesn't support HC's mission to become Tax Exempt as they currently operate.  You cannot have a Tax Exempt organization for the sole purpose of provide software to a player base...If you disagree, please provide an example...

 

I am less familiar with all software licensing models, however, I am unfamiliar with any per-user model, where someone who is not an agent of the IP holder can just grant access to the IP willy nilly.  Again, if you disagree, please provide an example...

 

They can keep going I suppose as they have been seeking gifts from the playerbase while become an agent of NCSoft who provides them the licensing rights for free...

 

Also becoming an agent of NCSoft, doesn't mean that they are owned or controlled by NCSoft...just that NCSoft has control over how their IP is deployed and has delegated the operations of that to a separate entity...

 

It's fine to just "disagree with me" or make suppositions about my experience with non-profits or software licensing, but if want to have a conversation, please provide evidence...If you like, I can point you to the IRS Tax Code, it's surprisingly easy to understand when it comes to non-profits...

 

If you just want to disagree without provide an actual counterpoint (like an example), then I'm out...Knock yourself silly getting the last word...

 

 

 

Uncle.  I give up.  You win.

 

[Widower]

2 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

That just links to @Number Six's profile...

Bloody hell - fixed, thanks.

1 minute ago, Wolfbeast said:

Sorry if I don't religiously follow every thread on this forum.

I mean, you did post in it a page before! 😃

[Lamprey]

Super excited by this announcement.

[Abraxus]

8 minutes ago, GM Widower said:

Bloody hell - fixed, thanks.

I mean, you did post in it a page before! 😃

Nice thing about the topic of character export is, we know it has been done before for one of the other servers.  When one of the other servers shut-down, and folks were being transferred to another, there was collaboration between the groups, and they made it happen.  Plus, the mechanism for transferring from one shard, to the other on Homecoming would have to be at least a subset of this procedure.  So, it's not unprecedented in the mechanics.  Just a matter of if it is viewed as feasible by the Dev team to make available upon request.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Abraxus

[Myrmidon]

10 hours ago, Wolfbeast said:

Homecoming grabbed the momentum (quite forcefully) in the early start, and only let up somewhat after everyone was already playing there.

 And thank sweet, little 8lb. 6oz. baby Jesus they did, since it appears that it could lead to legitimacy.

[The Fifth Horseman]

15 hours ago, justicebeliever said:

I'll believe it when I see it @TonyV...maybe it was premature to bring it up if you guys can't share any details, since all you are doing is fueling rampart speculation....

Boredom on a rampart can indeed fuel much speculation...

[justicebeliever]

1 minute ago, The Fifth Horseman said:

Boredom on a rampart can indeed fuel much speculation...

You sir, definitely win...I'll speculate southern France?

 

Now I have to go back and edit all my posts...

[ScarySai]

Cautious optimism on my part. Frankly, it's too soon to come to any conclusions without resorting to slippery slopes.

 

HC has made a lot of good decisions, I trust their judgement and integrity.

 

Plus, if it goes to crap again, people will just continue to server hop and NCsoft loses out on a payout for an IP they never use.

Edited August 8, 2019 by ScarySai

[Abraxus]

4 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

You sir, definitely win...I'll speculate southern France?

 

Now I have to go back and edit all my posts...

Boredom on a rampart can fuel much speculation?  So, apparently, can participation in a forum topic, concerning things near, and dear to our heart, in the absence of complete information . 😉😎

In any case, the game is here, we are playing it, and nothing has really changed for the time being.  When we know the facts, I'm sure we will all have our own take on what it means for the future, and can base decisions, perspectives, and opinions on those facts.  But, we ain't there yet.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Abraxus

[justicebeliever]

4 minutes ago, Abraxus said:

So, apparently, can participation in a forum topic, concerning things near, and dear to our heart. 😉😎

Not sure I follow...

 

9 minutes ago, Abraxus said:

In any case, the game is here, we are playing it, and nothing has really changed for the time being.  When we know the facts, I'm sure we will all have our own take on what it means for the future, and can base decisions, perspectives, and opinions on those facts.  But, we ain't there yet.

I appreciate the optimism Abraxus, and I am sharing it as well...But it's human nature to fill in the blanks when we are missing information and I think while the information was shared in good intent, it shouldn't be unexpected for people to speculate on possible outcomes...It's the same curiosity that fuels scientific discovery...

 

However, you are correct, we shouldn't be taking actions, like leaving the game, until we have more data.  And I liked your earlier post that people should stay in the present and play now while we have the game and enjoy what we have now instead of spending too much time fretting about what is out of our control...

[Abraxus]

I know it's human nature to assume the worst in the absence of fact.  I have been doing my level best to remind folks that they don't have to give into that fear.  You can't help but feel it, but you don't have to act based on it.  We can't control how we feel about a thing, but we definitely have control over how we react to it.  That part is voluntary.  So, I'm encouraging folks to feel as they will, but not to lose hope, and act before the facts are know.  That's all.

 

I have also tried to inspire folks to not assume that they know exactly how things will come out, based on what they "know".  At this point, the only folks who KNOW anything for sure, are the folks involved with these talks.  Outside of that, there are no hard facts.  So, it becomes difficult to take seriously those comments that would portend to predict the outcome, based on their perspective of the situation.  It's just not a thing. So, while they talk, let's all play like we've been doing, and the answers will come when they will.  Then we can rejoice, or run for the hills.  In either case, it will then (and only then) be justified.

[_NOPE_]

1 hour ago, justicebeliever said:

The IRS Tax Code doesn't support HC's mission to become Tax Exempt as they currently operate.  You cannot have a Tax Exempt organization for the sole purpose of provide software to a player base...If you disagree, please provide an example...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TechSoup

 

 

[justicebeliever]

Just now, The Philotic Knight said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TechSoup

 

 

That's pretty close, but they aren't providing software to the general public, rather to other non-profits...you have to be a certified 501(c)3 to work with them (I've used them several times and I've donated software to them as well, they are a great group)

[Sidious]

As I recall at sunset for the game originally there were "talks" with NCSoft about acquiring the game. They jerked the community and Tony V around then.

What's so different now? How can you be sure they aren't jerking around the community again?

 

My point is, we've heard this song and dance before. ("I know it failed the last time. But THIS time it'll work!!!")

Show me. Don't tell me.

At this point actions speak way louder than words.

[_NOPE_]

1 minute ago, justicebeliever said:

That's pretty close, but they aren't providing software to the general public, rather to other non-profits...you have to be a certified 501(c)3 to work with them (I've used them several times and I've donated software to them as well, they are a great group)

That was just the first one that I thought of... how about these juggernauts that are nonprofits providing software to the public at large?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Foundation

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Foundation

[Duuk]

Just now, Sidious said:

As I recall at sunset for the game originally there were "talks" with NCSoft about acquiring the game. They jerked the community and Tony V around then.

What's so different now? How can you be sure they aren't jerking around the community again?

 

My point is, we've heard this song and dance before. ("I know it failed the last time. But THIS time it'll work!!!")

Show me. Don't tell me.

At this point actions speak way louder than words.

What's different now is that 7 years have passed an entirely different economic model for f2p games, community interaction, and likely an entirely new management and marketing team are in place.

 

In addition, we have literally NO IDEA what NCSoft might be looking at now vs. 7 years ago, we have no idea what Titan Network may have been asking for (for example, most people familiar seem to suggest that Titan Network was asking to outright buy the CoX IP from NCSoft) vs. what the HC team might be asking (IP License and authority to operate a set of servers, improve upon the existing code, and perhaps offering to run any IP story changes by NCSoft's marketing team).

 

I can tell you that in these negotiations, the details matter.  The details matter A LOT.

[Widower]

1 minute ago, Sidious said:

What's so different now?

Well, there are 10-15 private servers and the source code is out in the wild, which is a big change.

[Sidious]

Just now, GM Widower said:

Well, there are 10-15 private servers and the source code is out in the wild, which is a big change.

Excellent point.

 

What else? I'm not trying to shitcan this, I'm actually trying to see the game plan and details.

[Abraxus]

7 minutes ago, Sidious said:

As I recall at sunset for the game originally there were "talks" with NCSoft about acquiring the game. They jerked the community and Tony V around then.

What's so different now? How can you be sure they aren't jerking around the community again?

 

My point is, we've heard this song and dance before. ("I know it failed the last time. But THIS time it'll work!!!")

Show me. Don't tell me.

At this point actions speak way louder than words.

Perhaps because it's 7 years later, there are very likely a lot of new folks involved from the NCSoft side who were not around for other similar negotiations.  And, most of all, previous attempts did not enjoy the advantage of the game being out in the wild already.  Before, all of the leverage was theirs.  This time, it's not.  They can find a way to benefit by the new landscape, or spend eternity chasing down rogue servers.  One of them sounds like a better way to go, from any business perspective.  The other does not.  It's totally up to them which way it goes, but the reality is, the genie cannot be stuffed back in the bottle, no matter how hard they might try.  If they do decide to go that route, that will just force players to more underground servers, with much smaller populations.  But, the game will not just disappear because of anything they do ever again.

 

Edit: I gotta be faster on the trigger!  Two people already posted a shorter version of this, and the point is already made.  Damn it! 😉

Edited August 8, 2019 by Abraxus

[Sidious]

Just now, Abraxus said:

Perhaps because it's 7 years later, there are very likely a lot of new folks involved from the NCSoft side who were not around for other similar negotiations.  And, most of all, previous attempts did not enjoy the advantage of the game being out in the wild already.  Before, all of the leverage was theirs.  This time, it's not.  They can find a way to benefit by the new landscape, or spend eternity chasing down rogue servers.  One of them sounds like a better way to go, from any business perspective.  The other does not.  It's totally up to them which way it goes, but the reality is, the genie cannot be stuffed back in the bottle, no matter how hard they might try.  If they do decide to go that route, that will just force players to more underground servers, with much smaller populations.  But, the game will not just disappear because of anything they do ever again.

Another excellent point. A bit of speculation, though to be fair.

Anything else?

Hey, i'm willing to jump on board and ride the "This is great news!" train all the way to the station. I just need more info on why this time it's going to happen.

[Duuk]

Dangit, I knew I forgot one important point:

 

With the code being out there, HC being blessed as the "Officially Licensed" City of Heroes servers would actually _reinforce_ NCSoft's trademark and copyrights, because it moves it from being abandoneware to being "actively developed".  Which means every time  they fire off a cease and desist to any of the other servers, they can include the paragraph "the City of Heroes Intellectual Property is actively and exclusively licensed to Homecoming, Inc, a Delaware Corporation, for their use".

 

Which means that allowing the HC team to use the City of Heroes code actually STRENGTHENS NCSoft's hand against everyone else. 

[Sidious]

1 minute ago, MadCow99 said:

Dangit, I knew I forgot one important point:

 

With the code being out there, HC being blessed as the "Officially Licensed" City of Heroes servers would actually _reinforce_ NCSoft's trademark and copyrights, because it moves it from being abandoneware to being "actively developed".  Which means every time  they fire off a cease and desist to any of the other servers, they can include the paragraph "the City of Heroes Intellectual Property is actively and exclusively licensed to Homecoming, Inc, a Delaware Corporation, for their use".

 

Which means that allowing the HC team to use the City of Heroes code actually STRENGTHENS NCSoft's hand against everyone else. 

That's....... an excellent point.

[Abraxus]

2 minutes ago, Sidious said:

Another excellent point. A bit of speculation, though to be fair.

Anything else?

Hey, i'm willing to jump on board and ride the "This is great news!" train all the way to the station. I just need more info on why this time it's going to happen.

I wish I could give assurances, but I'd be doing exactly what I'm advocating against, which is speculating without any actual facts, or drawing conclusions based on the past.  While the past does inform the present, and future, historical perspective does not necessarily predict the outcome in either case.  There are just too many variables involved which are unknown to us, and will greatly affect the outcome.  So, just keep on doing what you've been doing, and we'll all get there together. 🙂

 

[justicebeliever]

11 minutes ago, The Philotic Knight said:

That was just the first one that I thought of... how about these juggernauts that are nonprofits providing software to the public at large?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Foundation

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Foundation

Linux is a 501(c)6 - a business association to promote commercial adoption of Linux...They have members who they charge massive dues to

 

Mozilla is a 501(c)3 - a charitable non-profit - I've bolded the possible reasons for that IRS allows -

Quote

"exclusively for religious, charitable, scientific, literary, or educational purposes, or for testing for public safety, or to foster national or international amateur sports competition, or for the prevention of cruelty to children or animals."

The Mozilla one is the most similar to HC at this point...but it's harder to suggest a video game is meeting scientific, literary or educational purposes...

[_NOPE_]

Oh I don't know, I learned a ton from the game. Like how far a level 50 can knock a level 1 Hellion across Atlas Park...