Tankers and Knockback Resistance vs Knockback Protection

[Steampunkette]

4 minutes ago, CrimsonOne said:

See, I wouldn't mind that approach either, just adjusting the other armor sets so there is some resemblance of balance. 

 

Or, even adding in what @EverStryke mentioned earlier about changing Acrobatics to include Knockback Resistance and then any AT can add it into their build. This way it would require sacrificing a power slot to gain the advantage if it was important to your build. I wouldn't make it as strong as the Tank version but make it worth taking and slotting for at least. 

 

Sounds great to me! We take the KB Resistance out of Bio and Radiation, slap -some- but not a -ton- of KB Resistance to the Acrobatics Power...

 

And it gives people a variety of ways to play! 😄

[William Valence]

It depends on how much you value Psi resists.

 

Willpower and Fire are exceptions due to unique shticks, but generally sets with meaningful protections to Psionic damage have weaker protections to KB. And if they don't value Psionic mitigation that much then there will be some sets to add it to. *cough*energyaura*cough*

 

But yeah, the general trade-off is KB protections and Psi Mitigation.

[Hyperstrike]

I don't mean to be harsh.

I just find this to be another outgrowth of the "This doesn't work for my setup.  Make it easier." mentality.

I understand being aggravated.  I do.

But some things in this game SHOULD be hard or not-workable in certain configurations.
Otherwise, there's no challenge.

I always stand LIKE THIS!
I always pose LIKE THIS!
I always use THIS EXACT CYCLE OF ATTACKS!
And I stand here and rinse and repeat until everything falls!

BO-RING!

If your build and strategy doesn't work, find an alternate strategy that MAKES it work.

Don't demand that the game be neutered to fit your playstyle.

I don't expect you to like or agree with what I'm saying.
This is just my take on it.

[Sura]

56 minutes ago, CrimsonOne said:

I have only tested using Recluse so far, but I am sure there are other AV's or mobs that can hit just as hard and have KB as well. It's just one of those things that bugged me so I started looking at it more. 😃

Looking at https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Knockback/Enemies_with_Knockback_Powers and sorting by Mag (most to least) shows a very small subset of foes that have mag 20 or more, which, if I'm understanding how things work, is the cut off for where your knockback resist would apply.  I can't guarantee that information is completely accurate of course, but I would imagine it should be close.

 

[EverStryke]

7 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

I don't mean to be harsh.

I just find this to be another outgrowth of the "This doesn't work for my setup.  Make it easier." mentality.

I understand being aggravated.  I do.

But some things in this game SHOULD be hard or not-workable in certain configurations.
Otherwise, there's no challenge.

I always stand LIKE THIS!
I always pose LIKE THIS!
I always use THIS EXACT CYCLE OF ATTACKS!
And I stand here and rinse and repeat until everything falls!

BO-RING!

If your build and strategy doesn't work, find an alternate strategy that MAKES it work.

Don't demand that the game be neutered to fit your playstyle.

I don't expect you to like or agree with what I'm saying.
This is just my take on it.

I can respect that.

 

But on the flip side it would be nice if there was a level playing Field. That's my only two cents to it.

 

Thanks for the input.

[EverStryke]

4 minutes ago, Sura said:

Looking at https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Knockback/Enemies_with_Knockback_Powers and sorting by Mag (most to least) shows a very small subset of foes that have mag 20 or more, which, if I'm understanding how things work, is the cut off for where your knockback resist would apply.  I can't guarantee that information is completely accurate of course, but I would imagine it should be close.

 

definitely a good read for people that don't understand the differences between the resistance and the protection.

 

But your average players not dealing with giant monsters and recluse.

 

I wonder if the playing field needs to be level to allow all tankers to have similar protections when it comes to this specific category.

 

I know many people feel the same way.

[MunkiLord]

2 minutes ago, EverStryke said:

definitely a good read for people that don't understand the differences between the resistance and the protection.

 

But your average players not dealing with giant monsters and recluse.

 

I wonder if the playing field needs to be level to allow all tankers to have similar protections when it comes to this specific category.

 

I know many people feel the same way.

A level playing field may not go how people want it to though. I think a good argument could be made that Nightstar doing Nova or super buffed Lord Recluse being able to knockback heroes makes sense in the context of the story and mechanics. So while making all tanks equal in this category would likely lead to an overall buff, I also think it would lead to a few enemies having enough KB to overcome any hero. Much like Ghost Widow's hold.

[CrimsonOne]

23 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

I don't mean to be harsh.

I just find this to be another outgrowth of the "This doesn't work for my setup.  Make it easier." mentality.

I understand being aggravated.  I do.

But some things in this game SHOULD be hard or not-workable in certain configurations.
Otherwise, there's no challenge.

I always stand LIKE THIS!
I always pose LIKE THIS!
I always use THIS EXACT CYCLE OF ATTACKS!
And I stand here and rinse and repeat until everything falls!

BO-RING!

If your build and strategy doesn't work, find an alternate strategy that MAKES it work.

Don't demand that the game be neutered to fit your playstyle.

I don't expect you to like or agree with what I'm saying.
This is just my take on it.

Not sure how asking to add KB Resistance to the other three Tank Armors, or being able to add it via Acrobatics or something else, would be neutering the game in some way?

 

I can spend millions, sometimes even billions of Influence on Enhancement sets, and then hundreds of hours getting Incarnate levels/shards/threads, and spend a ton of my time turning my Tank into a GOD (Just like your signature suggests) only to find out that there is nothing I can do about keeping him on his feet.

 

It just doesn't make sense to me that I can tweak, adjust, and enhance to make my character resistant to just about everything else in the game, but not knockback. 

 

My friends and I are always trying new ideas and strategies, we have several lvl 50 alts and build combos because of it. We are always asking questions and trying to find answers. This was just one of those things that bugged me and it felt like a hole was left behind from the old days of CoH. 

 

   

[EverStryke]

1 minute ago, CrimsonOne said:

Not sure how asking to add KB Resistance to the other three Tank Armors, or being able to add it via Acrobatics or something else, would be neutering the game in some way?

 

I can spend millions, sometimes even billions of Influence on Enhancement sets, and then hundreds of hours getting Incarnate levels/shards/threads, and spend a ton of my time turning my Tank into a GOD (Just like your signature suggests) only to find out that there is nothing I can do about keeping him on his feet.

 

It just doesn't make sense to me that I can tweak, adjust, and enhance to make my character resistant to just about everything else in the game, but not knockback. 

 

My friends and I are always trying new ideas and strategies, we have several lvl 50 alts and build combos because of it. We are always asking questions and trying to find answers. This was just one of those things that bugged me and it felt like a hole was left behind from the old days of CoH. 

 

   

Well said

[Hyperstrike]

38 minutes ago, CrimsonOne said:

Not sure how asking to add KB Resistance to the other three Tank Armors, or being able to add it via Acrobatics or something else, would be neutering the game in some way?

 

I can spend millions, sometimes even billions of Influence on Enhancement sets, and then hundreds of hours getting Incarnate levels/shards/threads, and spend a ton of my time turning my Tank into a GOD (Just like your signature suggests) only to find out that there is nothing I can do about keeping him on his feet.

 

It just doesn't make sense to me that I can tweak, adjust, and enhance to make my character resistant to just about everything else in the game, but not knockback. 

 

My friends and I are always trying new ideas and strategies, we have several lvl 50 alts and build combos because of it. We are always asking questions and trying to find answers. This was just one of those things that bugged me and it felt like a hole was left behind from the old days of CoH.   

Because, there are some challenges in the game shouldn't have to alter the game to get around.  Even if your zillion Inf twink build is sub-optimal.
have a problem with excessive KB?  It's possible to build an Elec/Elec/Mu tank up past 54 points of KB Protection.

"But I should have to..."

The eternal refrain of people who refuse to adapt.

[EverStryke]

3 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

Because, there are some challenges in the game shouldn't have to alter the game to get around.  Even if your zillion Inf twink build is sub-optimal.
have a problem with excessive KB?  It's possible to build an Elec/Elec/Mu tank up past 54 points of KB Protection.

"But I should have to..."

The eternal refrain of people who refuse to adapt.

So you believe it isn't an oversight? And wish it to remain as is?

 

Accepted. But not understood.

 

Crimson and I both are willing to "Alter" and "Adapt". But he's simply stating that 40 kb points is "excessive" and appears to be an oversight, when IOs were designed.

 

Furthermore, nothing lasts forever. Good games adapt to players' needs/wants. This game shouldn't be an exception to the rule. Even if you may disagree impo.

 

To each their own I guess.

 

Everyone has their stance, I'm glad you took the time to chime in. More discussion is good for everyone.

Edited September 5, 2019 by EverStryke

[William Valence]

It isn't an oversight, and everything about Recluse is excessive in that instance. Hardcapped S/L/E resist, health, recharge and Def(all). With +2000% regen to boot.

 

The weaker KB protections has always been an intentional design decision.

[Hyperstrike]

2 hours ago, EverStryke said:

So you believe it isn't an oversight? And wish it to remain as is?

Yes.  Because you have similar constraints on other sets besides Elec.

 

2 hours ago, EverStryke said:

Accepted. But not understood.

 

Crimson and I both are willing to "Alter" and "Adapt". But he's simply stating that 40 kb points is "excessive" and appears to be an oversight, when IOs were designed.

 

That's the whole point.
And I don't know if the 40KB was there from the get-go or if it was added later.
 

 

2 hours ago, EverStryke said:

Furthermore, nothing lasts forever. Good games adapt to players' needs/wants. This game shouldn't be an exception to the rule. Even if you may disagree impo.

 

And good players adapt to the game instead of demanding everything have an "easy mode".

 

 

[Coolbreese]

When the STF came out originally, Dark and Electric weren't tanking options and Fire Tankers had access to 100 KB Points in Acrobatics.  I don't think it was ever intended to have the Tanker be knocked around like that.  

 

Put KB resist into Acrobatics.  Follows cottage rules and is a simple easy fix here.  

[EverStryke]

8 minutes ago, Coolbreese said:

When the STF came out originally, Dark and Electric weren't tanking options and Fire Tankers had access to 100 KB Points in Acrobatics.  I don't think it was ever intended to have the Tanker be knocked around like that.  

 

Put KB resist into Acrobatics.  Follows cottage rules and is a simple easy fix here.  

Adding knock-back resistance back to acrobatics was one of my original suggestions.

 

Now having affirmation that this has changed, to the detriment of fire dark and electric armor, I feel it's only fair to get it added back in a future update.

 

It doesn't hurt anyone

 

All archetypes benefit

 

And it makes tanks great again!



[CrimsonOne]

1 minute ago, Coolbreese said:

When the STF came out originally, Dark and Electric weren't tanking options and Fire Tankers had access to 100 KB Points in Acrobatics.  I don't think it was ever intended to have the Tanker be knocked around like that.  

 

Put KB resist into Acrobatics.  Follows cottage rules and is a simple easy fix here.  

My old brain is starting to remember some of these things now, and I just looked back through some of the old issues and found that they nerfed Acrobatics from Mag 100 down to Mag 9 clear back in Issue 12, but offered nothing in return to the Fire Tanks (or any other AT, for that matter) that had relied on that from the beginning. 

[CrimsonOne]

So to summarize, Knockback Protection is a small issue for the three Tank armors (Fire, Electric, Dark) that don't receive the Knockback Resistance the other eight Armor types get by default. I believe that this may have been a possible over site back in the days when CoH was being shuffled around, and code was changing rapidly.

 

All AT's used to be able to increase their Knockback Protection to mag 100 just by simply taking Acrobatics before Issue 12 was released (https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Patch_Notes/2008-05-20) this is when they nerfed the KB Protection in Acrobatics from 100 all the way down to 9.   

 

 

I would suggest one of the following ideas which have been mentioned throughout this thread so far:

1. Simply change Acrobatics to have a higher Knockback Protection, maybe set it back to 100, or just add a zero and make it 90. This becomes useful for any AT, not just Tanks.
2. Add Knockback Resistance to Plasma Shield, Obsidian Shield, and Grounded, this way all Tank Armors have the resistance.
3. Thematically, if the idea was to give damage aura Tanks no Knockback Resistance then remove it from the Radiation and Bio Armor sets to align them more with Fire, Dark, and Electric.
4. Combine ideas 1 and 3, and let players build their Tanks how they see fit. 

 

[EverStryke]

15 minutes ago, CrimsonOne said:

So to summarize, Knockback Protection is a small issue for the three Tank armors (Fire, Electric, Dark) that don't receive the Knockback Resistance the other eight Armor types get by default. I believe that this may have been a possible over site back in the days when CoH was being shuffled around, and code was changing rapidly.

 

All AT's used to be able to increase their Knockback Protection to mag 100 just by simply taking Acrobatics before Issue 12 was released (https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Patch_Notes/2008-05-20) this is when they nerfed the KB Protection in Acrobatics from 100 all the way down to 9.   

 

 

I would suggest one of the following ideas which have been mentioned throughout this thread so far:

1. Simply change Acrobatics to have a higher Knockback Protection, maybe set it back to 100, or just add a zero and make it 90. This becomes useful for any AT, not just Tanks.
2. Add Knockback Resistance to Plasma Shield, Obsidian Shield, and Grounded, this way all Tank Armors have the resistance.
3. Thematically, if the idea was to give damage aura Tanks no Knockback Resistance then remove it from the Radiation and Bio Armor sets to align them more with Fire, Dark, and Electric.
4. Combine ideas 1 and 3, and let players build their Tanks how they see fit. 

 

Perfect ideas.

[William Valence]

39 minutes ago, CrimsonOne said:

So to summarize, Knockback Protection is a small issue for the three Tank armors (Fire, Electric, Dark) that don't receive the Knockback Resistance the other eight Armor types get by default. I believe that this may have been a possible over site back in the days when CoH was being shuffled around, and code was changing rapidly.

This is not the case, it was not and oversight, and it was tested and announced more than a month before it was actually brought live. As it said in the patch note you provided yourself, the change was implemented so there would still be instances where some enemies could overcome the KB protection of a pool power, occasionally vs targets that had no other KB protection.

 

The change was to make it so you couldn't just pick Acrobatics and ignore KB.

42 minutes ago, CrimsonOne said:

Thematically, if the idea was to give damage aura Tanks no Knockback Resistance then remove it from the Radiation and Bio Armor sets to align them more with Fire, Dark, and Electric.

The trade off isn't damage aura -> KB resist

 

[EverStryke]

28 minutes ago, William Valence said:

This is not the case, it was not and oversight, and it was tested and announced more than a month before it was actually brought live. As it said in the patch note you provided yourself, the change was implemented so there would still be instances where some enemies could overcome the KB protection of a pool power, occasionally vs targets that had no other KB protection.

 

The change was to make it so you couldn't just pick Acrobatics and ignore KB.

The trade off isn't damage aura -> KB resist

 

So you're suggesting the solution should be that if you don't take the damage aura, you would be able to have knock-back resistance in your armors?

 

Essentially fire tankers without fiery aura would have knock back resistance?

 

The suggestion is a blow to the ego of every single fire tanker ever made, but thematically it would make sense. Horrible backhanded sense... But sense.

 

The problem is, right now we don't have that option.

 

All crimson is suggesting is that acrobatics be the saving Grace if a tanker does not have knock-back resistance equal to or greater than 40 so as not to get bounced around like a pinball in a smokey barroom, during the Lord Recluse portion of the STF.

 

As of right now it's almost impossible to get 40 knock-back or higher in a build without severely nerfing it. And even then it would be very hard.

 

Due to this he is stating that he will use it was an accident an oversight or poor judgment. Any of which could be the case.

 

Taking a step back and looking at this from the big picture if a change was made it wouldn't hurt anyone.

 

Blasters corruptors controllers defenders... Everyone would win. It wouldn't make anybody overpowered. It wouldn't be game-breaking.

 

making these changes would however open a plethora of options to archetypes that currently have no option as it pertains to knock-back resistance.

 

I believe that's all he's asking for. And I applaud his effort.

Edited September 5, 2019 by EverStryke

[MunkiLord]

If that were to happen, the likely result is some enemies, like buffed Lord Recluse, would just have their KB enhanced and then it might be large enough to overcome everyone.

[William Valence]

1 minute ago, EverStryke said:

so you're suggesting the solution should be that if you don't take the damage or you would be able to have knock-back resistance in your armors?

 

Essentially fire tankers without fiery aura would have knocked back resistance?

No, and I'm not sure how you read it to say that. I specifically said that there is no connection between damage auras and KB resist. I said that there *wasn't* a connection between the two.

 

What we can see is that when sets were designed they had a fairly consistent structure, with two exceptions that still prove that KB protection costs something from the set. If they have meaningful mitigation to Psi damage, they don't get strong KB protection. WP got both psi and KB protection but traded it's taunt magnitude and raw resist numbers. Fire got all it's resists and mez protection in two powers, which is a big advantage, and got an AoE attack and build up power, and healing flames.

 

Set's have strengths and weaknesses. Getting knocked while using a set with KB as a weakness in one of the most difficult bits of content in the game isn't showing poor design or an oversight IMO.

 

And acrobatics was changes specifically because of the fact that it let everyone from blasters and defenders to tankers ignore KB.

 

[GM Sijin]

55 minutes ago, William Valence said:

The change was to make it so you couldn't just pick Acrobatics and ignore KB.

This. Much like how it's difficult to get protection to holds and to a greater degree sleep, stun and even greater degree fear and confuse if your powersets don't provide those protections, the original dev team did not want all ATs to simply be able to completely negate control effects.

 

If your argument is that tankers of any armor type should be able to ignore ALL knockbacks that weren't intended to be unresistable, the solution you suggest should not involve making it possible for all ATs to do that. This requires either changing the tanker inherent power, or modifying the armors for tankers, not modifying pool powers.

 

Frankly the most elegant "level playing field" solution I can think of is to have gauntlet give tankers anywhere from 50-75% KB resistance, possibly that suppresses if they're held/stunned. This amplifies the value of protection by 2x-4x. It leaves the holes in the sets that have them thematically and allows them to much easier prevent high mag knockbacks than non-tankers. The protection provided to tanker sets without resistance on their powers could be reduced somewhat to compensate, if deemed necessary.

 

I say this while admitting that I, personally, don't feel a change is needed. You're talking about The Baddest of The Bad enemies or nuke style powers that can punch through ~20 mag protection. I don't see a problem with sets that have knockback vulnerability basically only being affected by these big hits. Sure, it doesn't feel great as a player having that happen, but it also doesn't feel great being stunlocked to death on a blaster. We shouldn't just make them immune to it, though. Gonna be fighting recluse on a fire tanker? Stock up on break frees and hope your team can take him down before you run out. But don't worry, even if you do, you're still doing your job: Tanking the hits.

41 minutes ago, EverStryke said:

Taking a step back and looking at this from the big picture if a change was made it wouldn't hurt anyone.

Your looking at a different big picture than others. Let me paint a slightly different picture using this logic:
Just give acrobatics 1000 protection to all status effects.

That also "doesn't hurt anyone" (except, you know, every controller/dominator in PvP). It does, however, completely trivialize mechanics, which does hurt the gameplay effect of those mechanics. This has a lot of names but the main one floating about right now is 'power creep.' Making acrobatics a 100 mag protection for KB means literally anyone with it can get punched in the face by one of primal earth's strongest supers' enhanced attacks and ignore the control mechanic of it. I'm not okay with this. A lot of other people wouldn't be okay with this. And I'm 99.99999% sure you're not going to convince the powers dev to be okay with this.

 

As I stated above, if your issue lies with tankers, proposed solutions should be limited to those that effect tankers or you're going to wade into an ocean of /jrangers, for good reason (maintaining gameplay balance).

Edited September 5, 2019 by GM Sijin

[EverStryke]

18 minutes ago, William Valence said:

No, and I'm not sure how you read it to say that. I specifically said that there is no connection between damage auras and KB resist. I said that there *wasn't* a connection between the two.

No disrespect but thematically there is a connection.

 

The armor sets with a damage auras tend to lack knock-back resistance.

 

So I posed a question... What if knock back iOS we're bumped up from four points to 10 points a piece?

 

This would give people who play fire dark and electric armor sets the ability to tank recluse without being thrown around like a rag doll.

 

Do you feel that would be a happy medium?

Edited September 5, 2019 by EverStryke

[EverStryke]

1 hour ago, GM Sijin said:

This. Much like how it's difficult to get protection to holds and to a greater degree sleep, stun and even greater degree fear and confuse if your powersets don't provide those protections, the original dev team did not want all ATs to simply be able to completely negate control effects.

 

If your argument is that tankers of any armor type should be able to ignore ALL knockbacks that weren't intended to be unresistable, the solution you suggest should not involve making it possible for all ATs to do that. This requires either changing the tanker inherent power, or modifying the armors for tankers, not modifying pool powers.

 

Frankly the most elegant "level playing field" solution I can think of is to have gauntlet give tankers anywhere from 50-75% KB resistance, possibly that suppresses if they're held/stunned. This amplifies the value of protection by 2x-4x. It leaves the holes in the sets that have them thematically and allows them to much easier prevent high mag knockbacks than non-tankers. The protection provided to tanker sets without resistance on their powers could be reduced somewhat to compensate, if deemed necessary.

 

I say this while admitting that I, personally, don't feel a change is needed. You're talking about The Baddest of The Bad enemies or nuke style powers that can punch through ~20 mag protection. I don't see a problem with sets that have knockback vulnerability basically only being affected by these big hits. Sure, it doesn't feel great as a player having that happen, but it also doesn't feel great being stunlocked to death on a blaster. We shouldn't just make them immune to it, though. Gonna be fighting recluse on a fire tanker? Stock up on break frees and hope your team can take him down before you run out. But don't worry, even if you do, you're still doing your job: Tanking the hits.

Your looking at a different big picture than others. Let me paint a slightly different picture using this logic:
Just give acrobatics 1000 protection to all status effects.

That also "doesn't hurt anyone." It does, however, completely trivialize mechanics, which does hurt the gameplay effect of those mechanics. This has a lot of names but the main one floating about right now is 'power creep.' Making acrobatics a 100 mag protection for KB means literally anyone with it can get punched in the face by one of primal earth's strongest supers' enhanced attacks and ignore the control mechanic of it. I'm not okay with this. A lot of other people wouldn't be okay with this. And I'm 99.99999% sure you're not going to convince the powers dev to be okay with this.

 

As I stated above, if your issue lies with tankers, proposed solutions should be limited to those that effect tankers or you're going to wade into an ocean of /jrangers, for good reason (maintaining gameplay balance).

Firstly that's an excellent response. And I respect your Feelings on the matter.

 

But I have to point out that we're not asking that acrobatics protect people from all status effects... Just knock back. Let's make sure we're comparing apples to apples here.

 

A single power created for a single reason. Again I state, not game-breaking impo. And definitely doesn't break game mechanics.

 

As to blasters controllers and defenders getting stun locked... There are solutions.

 

You could carry brake frees as you suggested. There is thaw, from the thermal set, increase density from kinetics, clear mind from empathy etc etc.

 

If we follow your line of reasoning as thematic, shouldn't we remove brake frees and clear mind?

 

Of course I'm being facetious. I simply brought it up so that the inverse could be discussed, or at least considered.

 

And I do see your point on power Creep. But I disagree wholeheartedly about not increasing knock-back protection to acrobatics.

 

It's time to make tanks great again. We have a chance to make some changes. I'm hoping we prevail in our effort to get these changes pushed through.

 

Thanks for your post I really enjoyed your insight.

Edited September 5, 2019 by EverStryke