Homecoming Server Update (May 29th): User Agreement & Policy Updates

You can admit it. It's OK. I've suspected for some time now.  Homecoming is a front for NCSOFT.  I say this because I'm not sure how you can have a legally binding document for something illegal. I'll agree to it because I love the game like the server and you guys seem OK. But again not sure how this works legally.

So it says nothing you couldn't get away with on live, so what about copy characters, cause I've seen atleast 20 captain americas and hulks in just the past week.

I say this because I'm not sure how you can have a legally binding document for something illegal.

Not legal =! illegal. We're in more of a grey area.

 

But, putting that to one side, just because we're in a legally grey area from a hosting standpoint, that doesn't mean we should be going around breaking other laws :)

I legally don't understand what you mean. How exactly is the server legally in a grey area, while running illegal code on the backend?

Also would we be getting any more information about you guys moving from the LLC to a Non-Profit LLC?

So it says nothing you couldn't get away with on live, so what about copy characters, cause I've seen atleast 20 captain americas and hulks in just the past week.

It would fall under their indemnification clause. They are only just now getting everything stabilized, and they don't have a large 24/7 staff to departmentalize into each little thing that needs attention at all times. At least not at the moment. So I would imagine you're going to keep seeing a lot of things in-game that aren't "up to par" with your accusations, however they have to set the guidelines so that they will be able to enforce them as they are able to do so.

Try herding 100,000 cats with a skeleton crew. It will take a while to get it all leveled out. That's about it really. My 2 cents anyway. I know what it takes to run servers like these... it's a bit of insanity with a cherry on top to keep you interested :)

Not legal =! illegal. We're in more of a grey area.

I'm going to come out of lurking to say this.

Uh.. What? Please elaborate.

Not legal =! illegal. We're in more of a grey area.

 

I'm going to come out of lurking to say this.

 

Uh.. What? Please elaborate.

Not Legal / Unlawful is basically something not expressly authorized in a legal sense. Illegal means an actual criminal statute specifically applies, and is in obvious malice contrast.

In essence, they're running an open server on code that was either found or given, that everyone running the game has assumed to have purchased at some point in time. They are not charging any fees, and are not making a profit on the property - so they are in a grey area which would be difficult to pursue, specifically where they moved the servers to.

I couldn't tell you the legaleze of Canada, but that's the basic assumptions from what I can gather.

the ! is (I think) javascript and means NOT

I kind of liken this to serving alcohol in your home. It's not illegal, but should something happen to one of your guests, YOU are responsible. This is saying that you are your own guardian here. Anything you do in their home, while you drink their alcohol, is your responsibility and they will not serve to "minors".

Not legal =! illegal. We're in more of a grey area.

 

I'm going to come out of lurking to say this.

 

Uh.. What? Please elaborate.

None of the owners of copyrights, trademarks or other intellectual property have filed any cease and desist orders of any kind. They have also (to my knowledge) not licensed it for use. They are definitely aware that the servers exist and are "in talks". Until we know one way or the other, it's a legal grey area. If they send a cease and desist it's illegal, if they sign an agreement is legal.

Disclaimer: I am not part of the Homecoming LLC and I am not a lawyer, this is just my interpretation of "grey area".

Content Guidelines

The following is considered prohibited content:

...

Controversial and adult content, including:

Sexual, provocative, pornographic, or adult content

So I have seen some people have unclickable f-list (sexual fetish/preference summary) addresses in their character bios.

A viewer would have to actively copy/paste this text into a web browser to view it.

Personally I think this is not adult content in CoH itself, but can we get a clear ruling on if this is allowed?

Edit: I don't have any problem with the CoC, just wanted to check on this aspect.

Seriously quit giving them a hard time and just sign the silly agreement. Just play have fun and dont worry about the legalese.

Not legal =! illegal. We're in more of a grey area.

 

I'm going to come out of lurking to say this.

 

Uh.. What? Please elaborate.

Think of it as like fanfiction.  There are no laws against fanfiction, only against violating copyrights.  Most publishers/movie studios/TV networks, etc. don't bother to go after fanfiction writers because they make no money from their work.  Homecoming is the same.  They are not running the game for profit, so they are not taking (non-existent, but still their legal right) income from NCSoft.

Not legal =! illegal. We're in more of a grey area.

 

I'm going to come out of lurking to say this.

 

Uh.. What? Please elaborate.

 

Think of it as like fanfiction.  There are no laws against fanfiction, only against violating copyrights.  Most publishers/movie studios/TV networks, etc. don't bother to go after fanfiction writers because they make no money from their work.  Homecoming is the same.  They are not running the game for profit, so they are not taking (non-existent, but still their legal right) income from NCSoft.

Yes but how do you know that. Their still running under an LLC which is for profit legally. Non-Profit are simple to make in delware. As far as I'm aware you can use an automate process to do so.

This seems incredibly wrong... What happened to becoming a non profit? Or is that a lie too? This whole EULA makes me think you are not using the funds the way you promised this community. You are not being transparent as promised.

From what I have been told, applying for non-profit status takes months, and as long as the LLC keeps track of all the money they got and where it went, this will be taken into account and not be an issue. I don't live in the US though so I have not researched this, but it's the reason why they are not taking more money that they can legitimately use to support the servers.

Re: money, if you seriously think anyone is making a profit out of this you have no idea what it takes to run servers at this scale. Stop believing people who claimed you could host a server for 1000 people on a Ryzen in your basement.

Disclaimer: I am not part of the Homecoming LLC, I am not a lawyer and I don't live in the US, this is just the facts as I've been told them.

Seriously quit giving them a hard time and just sign the silly agreement. Just play have fun and dont worry about the legalese.

I'll second this.

I will ride the ride with a smile for as long as it lasts. If that's sooner than later, so be it. If we have to sign a few things to protect minors, not hold Homecoming/SCORE accountable, or data protection, that all seems like progress to me.

OK, I understand that you think there is a need to say this but are you all so going to comply with the requirement to publish the real names of the members of the board and that of the registered agent and how to contact him or her?

No one here should have unrealistic exceptions of homecoming. I know I don't. You are doing a good job and as far as I can tell you have the long term running of the server in mind.

Posting stuff like this only lead to more crap than it will ever solve. It is legal unenforceable. 

Seriously quit giving them a hard time and just sign the silly agreement. Just play have fun and dont worry about the legalese.

It's not a silly agreement? It's a legal document which looks like it was copied. Because of the "ACCEPT" button stuff in there.

From what I have been told, applying for non-profit status takes months, and as long as the LLC keeps track of all the money they got and where it went, this will be taken into account and not be an issue. I don't live in the US though so I have not researched this, but it's the reason why they are not taking more money that they can legitimately use to support the servers.

 

Re: money, if you seriously think anyone is making a profit out of this you have no idea what it takes to run servers at this scale. Stop believing people who claimed you could host a server for 1000 people on a Ryzen in your basement.

 

Disclaimer: I am not part of the Homecoming LLC, I am not a lawyer and I don't live in the US, this is just the facts as I've been told them.

I understand that these are the facts you are told but I think it would have been smarter to relay this to the thousands of users on your server. Didn't homecoming also take 1250 as extra contingency fund?

Not legal =! illegal. We're in more of a grey area.

 

I'm going to come out of lurking to say this.

 

Uh.. What? Please elaborate.

 

 

 

Think of it as like fanfiction.  There are no laws against fanfiction, only against violating copyrights.  Most publishers/movie studios/TV networks, etc. don't bother to go after fanfiction writers because they make no money from their work.  Homecoming is the same.  They are not running the game for profit, so they are not taking (non-existent, but still their legal right) income from NCSoft.

 

Yes but how do you know that. Their still running under an LLC which is for profit legally. Non-Profit are simple to make in delware. As far as I'm aware you can use an automate process to do so.

I think Homecoming might be conflating Non-Profit with Tax-Exempt.  They are two different things.  Non-Profit status is granted a corporation to allow it to solicit donations, and Tax-Exempt is a tax status to avoid paying taxes on income.  While almost all non-profits are tax exempt, you can be just one or the other.  The dev's stated their goal with Homecoming LLC is to avoid the taxes, even though they called it a non-profit.  Getting a Tax-Exempt status does take quite a while - there's a lot of paperwork.  Getting a non-profit status should be ridiculously easy.

For full transparency: The money is being handled by a new legal entity, Homecoming Servers LLC (registered in Delaware, file number 7407345), which was set up today. We are currently in the process of transferring all Homecoming-related assets into this new entity.

[*]Homecoming Servers LLC is not currently a non-profit as it’s a multi-month process to set one up, but the eventual goal is to convert it into one (as previously mentioned, the entity was set up today)

[*]The primary reason for setting up an LLC is to give us tax protection - if the donations were funneled through an individual, they would be classed as income and as such would be taxable

I understand that these are the facts you are told but I think it would have been smarter to relay this to the thousands of users on your server. Didn't homecoming also take 1250 as extra contingency fund?

Yes, and it was used both for the extended stay at DO for an extra week due to PayPal locking up funds, and for a code signing certificate in order to start having less issues with antivirus software. As far as I know they have spent more money than they've taken in.

It is my understanding that exact expenses will become published on each donation thread. Again, disclaimer; neither I nor anyone associated with SCORE is part of the Homecoming LLC.

From what I have been told, applying for non-profit status takes months, and as long as the LLC keeps track of all the money they got and where it went, this will be taken into account and not be an issue. I don't live in the US though so I have not researched this, but it's the reason why they are not taking more money that they can legitimately use to support the servers.

 

Re: money, if you seriously think anyone is making a profit out of this you have no idea what it takes to run servers at this scale. Stop believing people who claimed you could host a server for 1000 people on a Ryzen in your basement.

 

Disclaimer: I am not part of the Homecoming LLC, I am not a lawyer and I don't live in the US, this is just the facts as I've been told them.

Depending on the state it does not take months. I also wouldn’t assume someone doesn’t know the cost to run a large server based on a comment. Nothing here has been super clear to the costs, no receipts of payment posted, and no clarity updates.  Your asking us to agree to a “legal” user agreement running a server with stolen IP? Also it seems very copypasta from the NCSoft EULA... just saying from my legal understanding asking someone to agree on this is very inappropriate and seems very “shady” for a lack of better words.

This may prove enlightening. 

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/forming-nonprofit-corporation-delaware-36056.html

To get tax exempt it could take months, IF it is ever granted by the IRS

First off, hey look, it's my first post here on the forums! *toot* (My main is The Heretic Rider on Excelsior, just got to level 7 and am really starting to get a feel for things!)

Anyway, to brass tacks!

So you've been running your servers without an EULA? That's gonna be a YIKES from me, hoss. Could land you in all sorts of trouble. Namely of the legal sort. Something tells me that you should have these ducks in a row before you had 100k+ people populating your servers, but that's just my takeaway. In any case, I'm glad this issue is being sorted out in some form!

Not legal =! illegal. We're in more of a grey area.

 

I'm going to come out of lurking to say this.

 

Uh... What? Please elaborate.

As far as I'm aware (and if there's anyone watching this thread who knows more about this than I, please feel free to lambast me for being so wrong correct me if I'm off base), these servers are running on effectively defunct code (well, not "defunct" as in untouched; more like "hasn't been used in a while by the original holders") and that the server owners are not making any sort of money off of their servers (outside of a few very generous donations made by some folks with deeper pockets than the rest of us, but I can't see how that's making any sort of profit, really), correct? The "how" and "why" of their acquisition of said code doesn't really factor in (unless it does and I miss my mark; highly likely that I have) unless someone who owned the original code (such as NCSoft) makes it an issue.

Working off that logic, what these people (the people running the Homecoming servers) are doing is technically legal, but the ice is very thin both ways (in that the Homecoming folks have to make sure that everything is above-board and that NCSoft can't go after them unless the company has either a REALLY GOOD legal team working nonstop to make it happen or something REALLY heinous happens).