Defense VS Resist?

I know the difference between def and resist but im curious as far as builds do go, which is better to go for first for survivability?

It's easier to add significant defense to a resistance build then it is to add resistance to a defense build, so most of the time people would recommend going for a resistance build.

Yea kinda what i figured which sucks cause i love ninjitsu but finding it hard to build resists on the build.

My preference is for defense over resistance, at least for late-added, late-game, and incarnate content.  Resistance works fine at what it does, which is to reliably reduce a certain portion of incoming damage.  The problem starts when those attacks also contain debuffs like -recharge, -tohit, and slows.  That crap is all over the place, especially in the high level content added towards the end of the official game.  Why this stuff was added, I don't know; the most frequently chosen and played content remains enemies present in i2. 

 

The only way this material becomes playable is to not get hit at all.  That's what defense does.  It decreases the odds that a mob will hit you, ideally down to a minimum 1 in 20 chance, the 'softcap'.  Defense can be weak in the levelling game, because it may take some time for all of the pieces of the puzzle to be assembled.  Once it's working it is much stronger for late-added and endgame content.  Defense is also more frequently debuffed than resistance, regeneration, or healing, and as such is prone to cascade failure: but they still have to hit you first. 

 

Ideally you get a bit of both, like you do with Invulnerability and Willpower.  But still, these only work in the endgame to the extent mobs can't hit you at all. 

 

Go resistance or regen for your lowbie reward merits farmer, but defense for your incarnates. 

It's easier to add significant defense to a resistance build then it is to add resistance to a defense build, so most of the time people would recommend going for a resistance build.

What? No one recommends that lol. Most of the better secondaries have a mixture of defense and resistance: wp, shield, bio. A resistance based secondary sucks on scrappers because they're limited to 75% resistance cap vs 90% on tankers and brutes which is why you have to add a ton of defense to make it viable.

 

OP a build with mixed damage mitigation is always going to be your best bet or one that is high defense e.g. SR on scrappers. There's a reason why you don't see many fire armor or dark armor scrappers doing crazy things, you'll see some but they're outliers.

Well so far this is the build i have come up with. He is DB/Ninjitsu. He is more of a thematic char. I will Prolly try messing with some other secondaries but I love ninjitsu for the low rch heal and end recovery and shinobi is just awesome IMO.

 

Hero Plan by Hero Hero Designer 2.23

https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

 

Click this DataLink to open the build!

 

Level 50 Mutation Scrapper

Primary Power Set: Dual Blades

Secondary Power Set: Ninjitsu

Power Pool: Fighting

Power Pool: Leadership

Power Pool: Speed

Ancillary Pool: Mu Mastery

 

Hero Profile:

Level 1: Power Slice

• (A) Superior Blistering Cold - Recharge/Chance for Hold
  
• (15) Superior Blistering Cold - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
  
• (21) Superior Blistering Cold - Damage/Endurance/Accuracy/RechargeTime
  
• (21) Superior Blistering Cold - Accuracy/Damage
  
• (23) Superior Blistering Cold - Damage/Endurance
  
• (23) Superior Blistering Cold - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
  

Level 1: Ninja Reflexes

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
  
• (5) Shield Wall - +Res (Teleportation), +5% Res (All)
  

Level 2: Ablating Strike

• (A) Kinetic Combat - Knockdown Bonus
  
• (3) Kinetic Combat - Accuracy/Damage
  
• (5) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Recharge
  
• (17) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Endurance
  

Level 4: Danger Sense

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
  
• (11) Reactive Defenses - Scaling Resist Damage
  

Level 6: Typhoon's Edge

• (A) Obliteration - Chance for Smashing Damage
  
• (7) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
  
• (7) Obliteration - Damage
  
• (9) Obliteration - Accuracy/Recharge
  
• (9) Obliteration - Damage/Recharge
  

Level 8: Shinobi-Iri

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
  

Level 10: Blinding Feint

• (A) Hecatomb - Chance of Damage(Negative)
  
• (11) Hecatomb - Damage/Endurance
  
• (13) Hecatomb - Damage/Recharge
  
• (13) Hecatomb - Damage
  
• (37) Hecatomb - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
  

Level 12: Kuji-In Rin

• (A) Endurance Reduction IO
  

Level 14: Boxing

• (A) Kinetic Combat - Knockdown Bonus
  
• (15) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Recharge
  
• (25) Kinetic Combat - Accuracy/Damage
  
• (43) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Endurance
  

Level 16: Tough

• (A) Aegis - Psionic/Status Resistance
  
• (17) Aegis - Resistance
  
• (19) Aegis - Resistance/Endurance
  
• (19) Aegis - Resistance/Endurance/Recharge
  
• (25) Gladiator's Armor - TP Protection +3% Def (All)
  

Level 18: Weave

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
  

Level 20: Seishinteki Kyoyo

• (A) Performance Shifter - EndMod/Accuracy/Recharge
  
• (40) Performance Shifter - Accuracy/Recharge
  
• (43) Performance Shifter - EndMod/Recharge
  

Level 22: Kuji-In Sha

• (A) Panacea - Heal
  
• (34) Panacea - Heal/Endurance
  
• (36) Panacea - Endurance/Recharge
  
• (37) Panacea - Hea/Recharge
  
• (37) Panacea - Heal/Endurance/Recharge
  

Level 24: Maneuvers

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
  

Level 26: Vengeful Slice

• (A) Superior Scrapper's Strike - Damage/Recharge
  
• (27) Superior Scrapper's Strike - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
  
• (27) Superior Scrapper's Strike - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
  
• (31) Overwhelming Force - Endurance/Recharge
  
• (31) Overwhelming Force - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
  
• (31) Overwhelming Force - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
  

Level 28: Sweeping Strike

• (A) Superior Scrapper's Strike - Recharge/Critical Hit Bonus
  
• (29) Superior Scrapper's Strike - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
  
• (29) Superior Scrapper's Strike - Accuracy/Damage
  
• (34) Overwhelming Force - Damage/Chance for Knockdown/Knockback to Knockdown
  
• (36) Overwhelming Force - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
  
• (36) Overwhelming Force - Accuracy/Damage
  

Level 30: Bo Ryaku

• (A) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%
  

Level 32: One Thousand Cuts

• (A) Superior Avalanche - Recharge/Chance for Knockdown
  
• (33) Superior Avalanche - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
  
• (33) Superior Avalanche - Accuracy/Damage
  
• (33) Superior Avalanche - Damage/Endurance
  
• (34) Superior Avalanche - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
  
• (50) Superior Avalanche - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
  

Level 35: Blinding Powder

• (A) Siphon Insight - Chance for +ToHit
  
• (46) Siphon Insight - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge
  
• (48) Siphon Insight - ToHit Debuff
  
• (48) Siphon Insight - Accuracy/ToHit Debuff
  
• (48) Siphon Insight - Accuracy/Recharge
  

Level 38: Mu Bolts

• (A) Superior Winter's Bite - Recharge/Chance for -Speed & -Recharge
  
• (39) Superior Winter's Bite - Damage/Endurance/Accuracy/RechargeTime
  
• (39) Superior Winter's Bite - Accuracy/Damage
  
• (39) Superior Winter's Bite - Damage/RechargeTime
  
• (40) Superior Winter's Bite - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
  
• (40) Superior Winter's Bite - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
  

Level 41: Ball Lightning

• (A) Superior Frozen Blast - Recharge/Chance for Immobilize
  
• (42) Superior Frozen Blast - Damage/Endurance/Accuracy/RechargeTime
  
• (42) Superior Frozen Blast - Accuracy/Damage
  
• (42) Superior Frozen Blast - Damage/Endurance
  
• (43) Superior Frozen Blast - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
  
• (50) Superior Frozen Blast - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
  

Level 44: Electric Shackles

• (A) Superior Entomb - Recharge/Chance for +Absorb
  
• (45) Superior Entomb - Accuracy/Hold/Endurance/Recharge
  
• (45) Superior Entomb - Accuracy/Hold
  
• (45) Superior Entomb - Hold/Recharge
  
• (46) Superior Entomb - Endurance/Recharge
  
• (46) Superior Entomb - Accuracy/Hold/Endurance
  

Level 47: Assault

• (A) Endurance Reduction IO
  

Level 49: Hasten

• (A) Recharge Reduction IO
  
• (50) Recharge Reduction IO
  

Level 1: Brawl

• (A) Empty
  

Level 1: Critical Hit

Level 1: Prestige Power Dash

• (A) Empty
  

Level 1: Prestige Power Slide

• (A) Empty
  

Level 1: Prestige Power Quick

• (A) Empty
  

Level 1: Prestige Power Rush

• (A) Empty
  

Level 1: Prestige Power Surge

• (A) Empty
  

Level 1: Sprint

• (A) Celerity - +Stealth
  

Level 2: Rest

• (A) Empty
  

Level 4: Ninja Run

Level 2: Swift

• (A) Empty
  

Level 2: Health

• (A) Numina's Convalesence - +Regeneration/+Recovery
  
• (3) Miracle - +Recovery
  

Level 2: Hurdle

• (A) Empty
  

Level 2: Stamina

• (A) Performance Shifter - Chance for +End
  

Level 50: Ageless Core Epiphany

Level 50: Agility Core Paragon

Level 50: Assault Radial Embodiment

------------

 

 

 

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Resistance based powersets will always be better for endgame content due to how easy it is to softcap a defense type purely with IO sets.  If you don't plan to build a character with IO sets, then defense powersets are fine and probably easier to level up with than resistance due to the factors Heraclea mentioned, as getting hit stacks debuffs (although obviously I do not agree with anything else stated, resistance based sets are clearly better for endgame and defense based sets are clearly better for leveling).

 

Resistance powersets for endgame: You can softcap a defense type easily with IO sets, while having capped resistances as well.

 

Defense powersets for leveling: You can softcap defense without IO sets or with minimal IO sets, making leveling cheap and easy. Once you are doing endgame content you will not be able to easily add resistance with IO sets, meaning you have half of the layers of defense that a resistance powerset would have since the resistance set added capped defense on top and the defense powerset didn't add much in the way of resistances.

 

None of this really matters though, because in endgame every build stomps everything due to incarnates and sets.  Even a defense set can get to capped S/L resists with enough creative building, but it is more difficult than adding defense.

Well so far this is the build i have come up with. He is DB/Ninjitsu. He is more of a thematic char. I will Prolly try messing with some other secondaries but I love ninjitsu for the low rch heal and end recovery and shinobi is just awesome IMO.

 

Hero Plan by Hero Hero Designer 2.23

https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

 

Click this DataLink to open the build!

 

Level 50 Mutation Scrapper

Primary Power Set: Dual Blades

Secondary Power Set: Ninjitsu

Power Pool: Fighting

Power Pool: Leadership

Power Pool: Speed

Ancillary Pool: Mu Mastery

 

Hero Profile:

Level 1: Power Slice

• (A) Superior Blistering Cold - Recharge/Chance for Hold
  
• (15) Superior Blistering Cold - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
  
• (21) Superior Blistering Cold - Damage/Endurance/Accuracy/RechargeTime
  
• (21) Superior Blistering Cold - Accuracy/Damage
  
• (23) Superior Blistering Cold - Damage/Endurance
  
• (23) Superior Blistering Cold - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
  

Level 1: Ninja Reflexes

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
  
• (5) Shield Wall - +Res (Teleportation), +5% Res (All)
  

Level 2: Ablating Strike

• (A) Kinetic Combat - Knockdown Bonus
  
• (3) Kinetic Combat - Accuracy/Damage
  
• (5) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Recharge
  
• (17) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Endurance
  

Level 4: Danger Sense

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
  
• (11) Reactive Defenses - Scaling Resist Damage
  

Level 6: Typhoon's Edge

• (A) Obliteration - Chance for Smashing Damage
  
• (7) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
  
• (7) Obliteration - Damage
  
• (9) Obliteration - Accuracy/Recharge
  
• (9) Obliteration - Damage/Recharge
  

Level 8: Shinobi-Iri

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
  

Level 10: Blinding Feint

• (A) Hecatomb - Chance of Damage(Negative)
  
• (11) Hecatomb - Damage/Endurance
  
• (13) Hecatomb - Damage/Recharge
  
• (13) Hecatomb - Damage
  
• (37) Hecatomb - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
  

Level 12: Kuji-In Rin

• (A) Endurance Reduction IO
  

Level 14: Boxing

• (A) Kinetic Combat - Knockdown Bonus
  
• (15) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Recharge
  
• (25) Kinetic Combat - Accuracy/Damage
  
• (43) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Endurance
  

Level 16: Tough

• (A) Aegis - Psionic/Status Resistance
  
• (17) Aegis - Resistance
  
• (19) Aegis - Resistance/Endurance
  
• (19) Aegis - Resistance/Endurance/Recharge
  
• (25) Gladiator's Armor - TP Protection +3% Def (All)
  

Level 18: Weave

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
  

Level 20: Seishinteki Kyoyo

• (A) Performance Shifter - EndMod/Accuracy/Recharge
  
• (40) Performance Shifter - Accuracy/Recharge
  
• (43) Performance Shifter - EndMod/Recharge
  

Level 22: Kuji-In Sha

• (A) Panacea - Heal
  
• (34) Panacea - Heal/Endurance
  
• (36) Panacea - Endurance/Recharge
  
• (37) Panacea - Hea/Recharge
  
• (37) Panacea - Heal/Endurance/Recharge
  

Level 24: Maneuvers

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
  

Level 26: Vengeful Slice

• (A) Superior Scrapper's Strike - Damage/Recharge
  
• (27) Superior Scrapper's Strike - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
  
• (27) Superior Scrapper's Strike - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
  
• (31) Overwhelming Force - Endurance/Recharge
  
• (31) Overwhelming Force - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
  
• (31) Overwhelming Force - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
  

Level 28: Sweeping Strike

• (A) Superior Scrapper's Strike - Recharge/Critical Hit Bonus
  
• (29) Superior Scrapper's Strike - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
  
• (29) Superior Scrapper's Strike - Accuracy/Damage
  
• (34) Overwhelming Force - Damage/Chance for Knockdown/Knockback to Knockdown
  
• (36) Overwhelming Force - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
  
• (36) Overwhelming Force - Accuracy/Damage
  

Level 30: Bo Ryaku

• (A) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%
  

Level 32: One Thousand Cuts

• (A) Superior Avalanche - Recharge/Chance for Knockdown
  
• (33) Superior Avalanche - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
  
• (33) Superior Avalanche - Accuracy/Damage
  
• (33) Superior Avalanche - Damage/Endurance
  
• (34) Superior Avalanche - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
  
• (50) Superior Avalanche - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
  

Level 35: Blinding Powder

• (A) Siphon Insight - Chance for +ToHit
  
• (46) Siphon Insight - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge
  
• (48) Siphon Insight - ToHit Debuff
  
• (48) Siphon Insight - Accuracy/ToHit Debuff
  
• (48) Siphon Insight - Accuracy/Recharge
  

Level 38: Mu Bolts

• (A) Superior Winter's Bite - Recharge/Chance for -Speed & -Recharge
  
• (39) Superior Winter's Bite - Damage/Endurance/Accuracy/RechargeTime
  
• (39) Superior Winter's Bite - Accuracy/Damage
  
• (39) Superior Winter's Bite - Damage/RechargeTime
  
• (40) Superior Winter's Bite - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
  
• (40) Superior Winter's Bite - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
  

Level 41: Ball Lightning

• (A) Superior Frozen Blast - Recharge/Chance for Immobilize
  
• (42) Superior Frozen Blast - Damage/Endurance/Accuracy/RechargeTime
  
• (42) Superior Frozen Blast - Accuracy/Damage
  
• (42) Superior Frozen Blast - Damage/Endurance
  
• (43) Superior Frozen Blast - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
  
• (50) Superior Frozen Blast - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
  

Level 44: Electric Shackles

• (A) Superior Entomb - Recharge/Chance for +Absorb
  
• (45) Superior Entomb - Accuracy/Hold/Endurance/Recharge
  
• (45) Superior Entomb - Accuracy/Hold
  
• (45) Superior Entomb - Hold/Recharge
  
• (46) Superior Entomb - Endurance/Recharge
  
• (46) Superior Entomb - Accuracy/Hold/Endurance
  

Level 47: Assault

• (A) Endurance Reduction IO
  

Level 49: Hasten

• (A) Recharge Reduction IO
  
• (50) Recharge Reduction IO
  

Level 1: Brawl

• (A) Empty
  

Level 1: Critical Hit

Level 1: Prestige Power Dash

• (A) Empty
  

Level 1: Prestige Power Slide

• (A) Empty
  

Level 1: Prestige Power Quick

• (A) Empty
  

Level 1: Prestige Power Rush

• (A) Empty
  

Level 1: Prestige Power Surge

• (A) Empty
  

Level 1: Sprint

• (A) Celerity - +Stealth
  

Level 2: Rest

• (A) Empty
  

Level 4: Ninja Run

Level 2: Swift

• (A) Empty
  

Level 2: Health

• (A) Numina's Convalesence - +Regeneration/+Recovery
  
• (3) Miracle - +Recovery
  

Level 2: Hurdle

• (A) Empty
  

Level 2: Stamina

• (A) Performance Shifter - Chance for +End
  

Level 50: Ageless Core Epiphany

Level 50: Agility Core Paragon

Level 50: Assault Radial Embodiment

------------

 

 

 

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I would suggest lowering your defense, you're 10% over the soft cap in Melee and AoE. Around 50% is ok for Incarnate content but anything more is too much.

Resistance based powersets will always be better for endgame content due to how easy it is to softcap a defense type purely with IO sets.  If you don't plan to build a character with IO sets, then defense powersets are fine and probably easier to level up with than resistance due to the factors Heraclea mentioned, as getting hit stacks debuffs (although obviously I do not agree with anything else stated, resistance based sets are clearly better for endgame and defense based sets are clearly better for leveling).

 

Resistance powersets for endgame: You can softcap a defense type easily with IO sets, while having capped resistances as well.

 

Defense powersets for leveling: You can softcap defense without IO sets or with minimal IO sets, making leveling cheap and easy. Once you are doing endgame content you will not be able to easily add resistance with IO sets, meaning you have half of the layers of defense that a resistance powerset would have since the resistance set added capped defense on top and the defense powerset didn't add much in the way of resistances.

 

None of this really matters though, because in endgame every build stomps everything due to incarnates and sets.  Even a defense set can get to capped S/L resists with enough creative building, but it is more difficult than adding defense.

The only sets that could be called resistance based are fire, dark, and invul because a majority of their damage mitigation comes from +res powers. Dark and Fire have always been considered some of the least survivable secondaries do to their trade offs for AoE damage and Invul is usually considered one of the most survivable secondaries because it trades off a ton of +damage compared to other sets. For teaming Fire and Dark are great because AoE damage matters most at that level but for anything like solo'ing AVs and Pylons you're going to get squashed most of the time using either of those two. Most scrapper secondaries have a mix of def/res/regen because having only res or def or regen opens you up to cascading buff failure so to say that res is the best for endgame content is not correct.

Resistance based powersets will always be better for endgame content due to how easy it is to softcap a defense type purely with IO sets.  If you don't plan to build a character with IO sets, then defense powersets are fine and probably easier to level up with than resistance due to the factors Heraclea mentioned, as getting hit stacks debuffs (although obviously I do not agree with anything else stated, resistance based sets are clearly better for endgame and defense based sets are clearly better for leveling).

 

Resistance powersets for endgame: You can softcap a defense type easily with IO sets, while having capped resistances as well.

 

Defense powersets for leveling: You can softcap defense without IO sets or with minimal IO sets, making leveling cheap and easy. Once you are doing endgame content you will not be able to easily add resistance with IO sets, meaning you have half of the layers of defense that a resistance powerset would have since the resistance set added capped defense on top and the defense powerset didn't add much in the way of resistances.

 

None of this really matters though, because in endgame every build stomps everything due to incarnates and sets.  Even a defense set can get to capped S/L resists with enough creative building, but it is more difficult than adding defense.

The only sets that could be called resistance based are fire, dark, and invul because a majority of their damage mitigation comes from +res powers. Dark and Fire have always been considered some of the least survivable secondaries do to their trade offs for AoE damage and Invul is usually considered one of the most survivable secondaries because it trades off a ton of +damage compared to other sets. For teaming Fire and Dark are great because AoE damage matters most at that level but for anything like solo'ing AVs and Pylons you're going to get squashed most of the time using either of those two. Most scrapper secondaries have a mix of def/res/regen because having only res or def or regen opens you up to cascading buff failure so to say that res is the best for endgame content is not correct.

 

Fire isn't a good secondary on a scrapper in most situations, I can agree with that,  The rest of your evaluations are a little sketchy, especially if you are lumping fire and dark in the same bucket.

 

Dark brings defense (a toggle equaling weave), a huge fast-recharging heal, very good resist types (energy being weak and also the easiest to build sets for) and two CC mitigation toggles.  This is not fire, this is not a 'damage' set, maybe you should look into it again so that you're more aware of the capabilities?

 

It's OKAY to say that you need layered defenses as a scrapper, I have no issue with that, it isn't 'wrong'.  The question was RESISTANCE OR DEFENSE though.

 

Super Reflexes and Energy Aura and Ninjitsu and Ice Armor, the defense based sets, are not good choices compared to the resistance based sets Radiation, Dark, Invuln, and Electric, because all of those sets have powerful mitigation tools and the ability to cap a defense on top of capping resistances.

 

Defense or Resist, I'm picking Resist every single time, because it is clearly the right choice when factoring in set bonuses. Build high resists, build high defense, and build in your other mitigation. That was the answer to the OP's actual question.

The only sets that could be called resistance based are fire, dark, and invul because a majority of their damage mitigation comes from +res powers. Dark and Fire have always been considered some of the least survivable secondaries do to their trade offs for AoE damage and Invul is usually considered one of the most survivable secondaries because it trades off a ton of +damage compared to other sets. For teaming Fire and Dark are great because AoE damage matters most at that level but for anything like solo'ing AVs and Pylons you're going to get squashed most of the time using either of those two. Most scrapper secondaries have a mix of def/res/regen because having only res or def or regen opens you up to cascading buff failure so to say that res is the best for endgame content is not correct.

 

Invulnerability is a resistance set, but instead of picking up damage it picks up Defense via Invincibility, which is what makes it as studly as it is--you end up with both Resistance and Defense. Back in the day, the tanky scrapper build was DM/Inv.

 

I am not sure why Radiation and Electric Armors are left out of your listing, as they too are Resistance based sets.

 

I played DM/Inv back at release. I have not tried a (near purely) Resistance based set since. I would imagine of the lot that Radiation could be quite effective due to its absorb power, particularly if you stack defense. If I didn't already have both a Radiation Armor brute and tanker I might be tempted to try it out.

None of this quite addresses OP's question, I think: which should you build for first, for an existing character whose powersets are already set in stone? The answer to this is much simpler: defense always. If you've got a defense-based secondary, get to the softcap, because that's where your secondary will start to feel "complete". If you've got a resist-based secondary, also build for defense first, because layered defenses are great and purple inspirations exist.

It's easier to add significant defense to a resistance build then it is to add resistance to a defense build, so most of the time people would recommend going for a resistance build.

For what it's worth, this is a lot less true now than it was before i24. I mean, it's still true, but it used to be "you can get maybe a few percent more resist outside of what you get from your secondary and Tough, if you use weird slotting and spend 2 billion inf on this PvP IO", and now it's "your /Shield scrapper can have capped S/L resist without really sacrificing anything". For that matter, building for defense and for resistance often come from the same sets, so they're not mutually exclusive.

None of this quite addresses OP's question, I think: which should you build for first, for an existing character whose powersets are already set in stone? The answer to this is much simpler: defense always. If you've got a defense-based secondary, get to the softcap, because that's where your secondary will start to feel "complete". If you've got a resist-based secondary, also build for defense first, because layered defenses are great and purple inspirations exist.

 

 

The answer is you supplement where your set focuses first. The OP is playing a Defense based set, so until hitting cap the easiest and biggest gains are from upping Defense. Were he playing resistance, short of wallowing in influence, augmenting resistance would be the bigger payoff initially. On funky-weird hybrid sets it would depend on the exact values the set provides, but short of absurdly low values on the Defense side, most likely Defense first.

Were he playing resistance, short of wallowing in influence, augmenting resistance would be the bigger payoff initially.

I have not found this to be true. For example, getting my /Fire stalker to a reasonable level of S/L defense (way short of the softcap, and for a fraction of the budget of a level 50 build) paid off far more than extra resists did.

 

You'd think it should work the way you say, due to the increasing returns on defensive stats. But defensive set bonuses are available in larger quantities, relatively speaking: since enemy tohit is 50% base, defense is point-for-point twice as good as resistance. Kinetic Combat gives +3.75% S/L defense for four pieces and can be had at a reasonable price, but there are no sets that give +7.5% S/L resist.

 

Also, even a moderate amount of defense gives you the option to pop 1-2 Lucks and be invincible for 60 seconds, while popping oranges is much less effective and rapidly runs into the resist cap.

Were he playing resistance, short of wallowing in influence, augmenting resistance would be the bigger payoff initially.

I have not found this to be true. For example, getting my /Fire stalker to a reasonable level of S/L defense (way short of the softcap, and for a fraction of the budget of a level 50 build) paid off far more than extra resists did.

 

You'd think it should work the way you say, due to the increasing returns on defensive stats. But defensive set bonuses are available in larger quantities, relatively speaking: since enemy tohit is 50% base, defense is point-for-point twice as good as resistance. Kinetic Combat gives +3.75% S/L defense for four pieces and can be had at a reasonable price, but there are no sets that give +7.5% S/L resist.

 

Also, even a moderate amount of defense gives you the option to pop 1-2 Lucks and be invincible for 60 seconds, while popping oranges is much less effective and rapidly runs into the resist cap.

 

A character who is in his teens and not borrowing funds from previously existing characters is doing what to get his defense up? Buying from the AH? With what? It is cheaper and easier to slot DOs and SOs in powers and acquire pool powers (as they unlock by playing the game) than toss out a couple of million for IOs.

 

5 million influence is pocket lint for a level 50 character, but sub-30 (and again not having influence lying around from other characters) it's quite a bit more meaningful. And picking up a 3% or 5% one-time boost for what it would cost to otherwise fully result your character strikes me as less beneficial than filling out you powerset powers with slots and SOs and picking up pool powers.

I took the question to be about an early low-budget IO build, rather than "should my /fire scrapper take Tough or Maneuvers at level 22?" I agree that for the latter, Tough will give better results.

I could certainly be misreading, in which case I whole-heartedly agree with you.  :)

I know the difference between def and resist but im curious as far as builds do go, which is better to go for first for survivability?

 

Defense is more effective and easier to build for in general if you're talking about set bonuses. 20% defense will have a significantly larger impact than 20% resistance. And 45% defense will absolutely outshine 75% resist in almost all situations. Prioritize defense over resist. Of course, specific situations and powersets could very well change that, my advice is what I feel is the best general starting point.

 

If you're not factoring in set bonuses, then play to the powersets strengths, whatever they may be.

 

Edit: Wanted to add for top level end game stuff, I feel defense is more important. If Cole or some other AV in an Incarnate trial or fully buffed Lord Recluse hits you, they'll generally make quick work of you. 75% resist is nothing for many of them. Your best bet is to not get hit at all.

A few other things.  Don't gimp your build by planning around set bonuses.  Now, the AT specific sets are generally good for this, but the ordinary orange melee sets with the best defense or resist bonuses often lack key ingredients in a slotting strategy.  Most seem to have much less accuracy than I would want slotted in an attack.  They offer maybe 40% where I like to see 75%.  A working attack chain is more important to your survival than any set bonus.  -Tohit debuffs are also very common at all stages of the game.  Build the character you want to play and add such set bonuses as you can.  Reliable damage is the best defense. 

 

Pay attention to the exotic damage types and effects of your attacks.  My i23 spines/WP scrapper put Pacing of the Turtle or Dark Watcher's Despair procs for -recharge in everything that would take them.  Using the same strategy on my i25 bio/spines tanker and water/WP sentinel.  When these procs are constantly going on your pulsing AoEs they become quite potent, and add to your survivability in ways that aren't reflected directly in defense or resistance numbers.  There are also some attack sets like Katana or Broadsword that add defense, while Dark Melee and Radiation add heals.  Boosting the heal you get from those attacks will do more for you than any set bonus.  Frankenslotting to boost key abilities will make you tougher than any set bonus.  I think the min-maxing encouraged by hero builders is something that needs to be tested in actual play, and in-game you will find that enhancing your powers works better than chasing the bonus. 

 

 

Resistance based powersets will always be better for endgame content due to how easy it is to softcap a defense type purely with IO sets.  If you don't plan to build a character with IO sets, then defense powersets are fine and probably easier to level up with than resistance due to the factors Heraclea mentioned, as getting hit stacks debuffs (although obviously I do not agree with anything else stated, resistance based sets are clearly better for endgame and defense based sets are clearly better for leveling).

 

Resistance powersets for endgame: You can softcap a defense type easily with IO sets, while having capped resistances as well.

 

Defense powersets for leveling: You can softcap defense without IO sets or with minimal IO sets, making leveling cheap and easy. Once you are doing endgame content you will not be able to easily add resistance with IO sets, meaning you have half of the layers of defense that a resistance powerset would have since the resistance set added capped defense on top and the defense powerset didn't add much in the way of resistances.

 

None of this really matters though, because in endgame every build stomps everything due to incarnates and sets.  Even a defense set can get to capped S/L resists with enough creative building, but it is more difficult than adding defense.

The only sets that could be called resistance based are fire, dark, and invul because a majority of their damage mitigation comes from +res powers. Dark and Fire have always been considered some of the least survivable secondaries do to their trade offs for AoE damage and Invul is usually considered one of the most survivable secondaries because it trades off a ton of +damage compared to other sets. For teaming Fire and Dark are great because AoE damage matters most at that level but for anything like solo'ing AVs and Pylons you're going to get squashed most of the time using either of those two. Most scrapper secondaries have a mix of def/res/regen because having only res or def or regen opens you up to cascading buff failure so to say that res is the best for endgame content is not correct.

 

Fire isn't a good secondary on a scrapper in most situations, I can agree with that,  The rest of your evaluations are a little sketchy, especially if you are lumping fire and dark in the same bucket.

 

Dark brings defense (a toggle equaling weave), a huge fast-recharging heal, very good resist types (energy being weak and also the easiest to build sets for) and two CC mitigation toggles.  This is not fire, this is not a 'damage' set, maybe you should look into it again so that you're more aware of the capabilities?

 

It's OKAY to say that you need layered defenses as a scrapper, I have no issue with that, it isn't 'wrong'.  The question was RESISTANCE OR DEFENSE though.

 

Super Reflexes and Energy Aura and Ninjitsu and Ice Armor, the defense based sets, are not good choices compared to the resistance based sets Radiation, Dark, Invuln, and Electric, because all of those sets have powerful mitigation tools and the ability to cap a defense on top of capping resistances.

 

Defense or Resist, I'm picking Resist every single time, because it is clearly the right choice when factoring in set bonuses. Build high resists, build high defense, and build in your other mitigation. That was the answer to the OP's actual question.

I've played dark that was soft capped and it still got squashed so maybe it was user error.  SR should not have any issues and has always been considered a highly survivable build. There is a reason you don't see many high res builds in the pylon thread or solo'ing AVs is partly because res builds on scrappers is no where near as effective as it is on tankers/brutes. The other is that it requires a much higher investment than a mixed build or a pure defense build.

The only sets that could be called resistance based are fire, dark, and invul because a majority of their damage mitigation comes from +res powers. Dark and Fire have always been considered some of the least survivable secondaries do to their trade offs for AoE damage and Invul is usually considered one of the most survivable secondaries because it trades off a ton of +damage compared to other sets. For teaming Fire and Dark are great because AoE damage matters most at that level but for anything like solo'ing AVs and Pylons you're going to get squashed most of the time using either of those two. Most scrapper secondaries have a mix of def/res/regen because having only res or def or regen opens you up to cascading buff failure so to say that res is the best for endgame content is not correct.

 

Invulnerability is a resistance set, but instead of picking up damage it picks up Defense via Invincibility, which is what makes it as studly as it is--you end up with both Resistance and Defense. Back in the day, the tanky scrapper build was DM/Inv.

 

I am not sure why Radiation and Electric Armors are left out of your listing, as they too are Resistance based sets.

 

I played DM/Inv back at release. I have not tried a (near purely) Resistance based set since. I would imagine of the lot that Radiation could be quite effective due to its absorb power, particularly if you stack defense. If I didn't already have both a Radiation Armor brute and tanker I might be tempted to try it out.

 

You're correct, I forgot that scrappers got electric and radiation.

 

None of this quite addresses OP's question, I think: which should you build for first, for an existing character whose powersets are already set in stone? The answer to this is much simpler: defense always. If you've got a defense-based secondary, get to the softcap, because that's where your secondary will start to feel "complete". If you've got a resist-based secondary, also build for defense first, because layered defenses are great and purple inspirations exist.

It's easier to add significant defense to a resistance build then it is to add resistance to a defense build, so most of the time people would recommend going for a resistance build.

For what it's worth, this is a lot less true now than it was before i24. I mean, it's still true, but it used to be "you can get maybe a few percent more resist outside of what you get from your secondary and Tough, if you use weird slotting and spend 2 billion inf on this PvP IO", and now it's "your /Shield scrapper can have capped S/L resist without really sacrificing anything". For that matter, building for defense and for resistance often come from the same sets, so they're not mutually exclusive.

I agree with this, in either case, whether playing a defense or resistance based set, the answer is that getting to the softcap will always increase survivability more than getting to the resistance hardcap.

I know the difference between def and resist but im curious as far as builds do go, which is better to go for first for survivability?

 

Defense is typically better than damage resistance. Say you have a Scrapper with 2,000 hp, 0% defense, 0% dam resist, and 0% regen. You're fighting an even con enemy that does 100 pts of damage per hit. The enemy has the standard 50% chance to hit/miss with each attack. On average, the enemy would take about 40 attacks to kill your character.

 

Now say you have +45% defense (softcap). Instead of hitting you 50% of the time, the enemy is hitting you 5% of the time. It would take about 400 attacks for that one enemy to kill your character.

 

Now say your Scrapper is back at 0% def but now has capped damage resistance at +75%. Instead of hitting you for 100 damage, you're getting hit for 25 damage (With a 50/50 chance to hit/miss). The enemy would need to attack around 160 times for him to kill your character.

 

In this particular case, softcap defense is 2.5 times better than capped damage resistance.

Just, wow.

 

The base to-hit-you of anything you should be fighting in your level range, outside of PvP, is 50%.  I think we all know that.  So if the caps weren't there 50% defense means complete immunity.  100% resist, if the caps weren't there also would mean complete immunity.  So as things work out, 1% defense is about equal in strength to 2% resist.  Except when combined.

 

There is something of a bad multiplier that happens when you have both.  Defense is all or nothing, if the dice roll in your favor the attack is completely nullified, otherwise you take the whole attack.  Resistance reduces the damage you take when you take damage.  When an attack hits, resistance shaves a percentage off that damage. So if you had 30% defense or 60% resistance you would only be taking 40% of the damage aimed at you.  But if you had half and half, 15% defense and 30% resistance at the same time, you'll be taking a bit more.  15% defense allows 70% of attacks through, then 30% resist allows 70% of damage through, so you'll be taking (.7*.7=.49) 49% of damage as opposed to the 40% of a pure defense or pure resistance build.

 

So is it better to take defense or resist?  It's actually complicated.  But the short answer is that it is better to strengthen whichever your armor powers provide to the cap before worrying too much about the other.  A Ninjutsu character probably should max defense before worrying about resist.  An Invulnerable character should probably focus on resist before defense.  The one exception I would make is with the minor power-pool defenses like Maneuvers, Combat Jumping, and Hover, as there are no resist versions of these powers.  When the choice is to have or have not, why not get it if you can afford it?

Well i would still love to take ninjitsu but what would you guys recommend then, I have seen so many different Opinions in thread lol. I been messing around with some other secondarys in the builder but so far that all come out to about equal as ninjitsu except for elec seemed really high on the resist end but was harder to cap as many def as i did with ninjitsu build.

Well i would still love to take ninjitsu but what would you guys recommend then, I have seen so many different Opinions in thread lol. I been messing around with some other secondarys in the builder but so far that all come out to about equal as ninjitsu except for elec seemed really high on the resist end but was harder to cap as many def as i did with ninjitsu build.

 

The rule of thumb is: Play what you find fun, ignore the rest.

 

I've rolled Ninjitsu back on Live, it acts an awful lot like Super Reflexes for the most part, and the Reactive Defense Scale Resist IO makes it even more-so the case. Both with SR and with Ninjitsu, I didn't focus on any form of intentional resistances, but in both it is possible to rack up a pretty decent supply of passive S/L resists, and then have a moderately slotted Tough to double it when needed. In my play experience though, if something was going to roll the hit-lottery in a way that was going to kill me, it was likely not going to matter if I had more resists to fallback on. I spent hundreds of hours on an SR toon (KM/SR Scrapper actually) who was iCapped at 59% to the three positionals, and I ran around with Aid Self (while leveling) and then Rebirth +Regen Destiny (once Incarnate Level). The average odds that I ever suffered a significant issue was either cascading defense failure (something managing to ridiculously debuff you in a fast hurry, which is rare), or one massively succesful major hit that brings you down to near-death (because the game prevents one-shot), and then a follow up measely aoe or little attack that gets a lucky roll right after (also rare).

 

When people are talking about combining the two, yes, this greatly increases the odds of staying alive, but one thing primarily-defensive sets usually have that resist sets do not, is Debuff Resistance. A lot of enemy groups in the game have this in some fashion, and if (sic: when) those start stacking, those Resist based toons quickly loose every ounce of that defense they bartered for, and now gamble on just their resists shields (and are thus taking a lot more successive damage).

 

If you're truly concerned, but want to play a defensive based toon, then I'd suggest you roll a Shield based toon. You can still focus on the primary aspect of positional defense, but between inherent powers, and global bonuses, you can get 60% S/L resists packed into it and it kind of becomes a nice best-of-both scenario. Get a little Debuff Resist, Defense, and actual Resistances, a nice +Dam toggle, and a fun AoE.