Gobbledigook

Those are not the figures i am seeing at all. Something is off lol. How did you get 126.5 base damage for Tankers? i am seeing 99.85.

Making shit up yet again. The game is easy. SO offers a challenge. I have many IO built characters but a change can be fun sometimes. I am glad you enjoy your IO builds at least that is something i guess.

What has anything i do got to do with you? I have seen your builds and wonder why you are even allowed to post sometimes lol. Oh has this just become personal? hmmmmm surprise surprise!

A couple of days ago. Do you think that you are getting a real indication of Tanker performance when you are adding variables like procs etc into the mix? This game is not balanced on procs. It has been said many times by developers that this game is mostly based on SO's. Take the procs out of the equation. Procs are their own problem as i said. There really is no point continuing this. You are dead set on "Nerf Tankers" rather than looking at the big picture. Good luck with that. If it happens we will probably see "Nerf Brutes" lol. Either way this is just meaningless banter. Btw it is not most folks agreeing it is the same small few with a personal grudge against Tankers.

Brutes are more survivable than Scrappers but less than Tankers. They do more damage than Tankers but less than Scrappers. Buffs really boost a Brutes survival whilst still have better damage than a Tanker. I feel like a broken record but it does not seem to sink in. There is no actual concrete evidence that Tankers clear mobs faster than Brutes. The testing i have seen i would take with a pinch of salt. It would depend on build/powersets/skill using the power sets etc. Luck and many other variables. Simplify it and the Brute does more damage than the Tanker on SO's. Procs and IO sets have nothing to do with it they are their own separate problem.

Yes that is a slip up lol But you seem educated and surely can work out the meaning.

Yes it could but hopefully that would be taken into account somehow if it ever happens. Testing and feedback helps.

And that is where you are going wrong, expecting dps and survival all in one. They are more survivable than Scrappers. They can be buffed way beyond Scrapper survival. They do more damage than Tankers. Brutes do not need much to be made a little better. We do have access to more than 1 build per character.

The margin is not small if you remove the procs. This game is not balanced on procs but SO's...mostly. Procs are a problem.

Yet you state the Brute does less damage than the Tanker. Yet you also say the Brute will out dps the Tanker. Which is it? Procs are even for whoever uses them. IO sets can be used by everyone. Musculature wont make that big of a difference and the Brute could go for Agility for extra recharge. You chose a dps incarnate for the Tanker but not for the Brute. You won't do that because you know the Brute will win. Being faster or even in clearing trash is not as big a deal as you guys would like to make out, Blasters/defenders/corruptors etc do that all day long. There is not a lot in it anyway and these tests are far from exact. The Brute will be faster on a hard target! Brute does more damage but the Tanker hits more targets with some of it's powers. Procs have been known to be a problem but the Tanker Damage scale is not.

Try the test with out any procs at all. SO's only. Set the Fury to 85%. No Build up anywhere and then state the difference. Add some recharge if you want but state how much and from what. Use exact same powers. Leave incarnate out of this or use the same. Simplify it a little.

But it still makes a difference and Brutes just hit harder for less target on some of their attacks.. That was part of the reasoning behind it so take it up with Captain Powerhouse rather than stating the obvious. When you add recharge in that 32 seconds becomes a lot less, probably a couple or so seconds difference. But go for the highest number as that does look better.

What is the fury set at? Why BS when it was BA you mentioned earlier?

I will try a BA/Bio Brute if i can get chance to see what time i can get. It took hours of testing and swapping things around when i did my pylon times. I don't have the inclination as much nowadays though. I originally made the Bio/SS Tanker and was impressed with it although survival takes a dive with a damage build. So i tried the Brute with a similar build not even considering building survival. Tweaked it a little and got consistently better times as i hoped/expected i would. The Brute is not as survivable out of the box as a Tanker but it will out damage one on a single target at least. Brutes trying to build toughness to near Tanker levels may as well just roll a Tanker unless they are willing to make 2 builds one for dps and the other for tanking. Play the Brute as a Dps with slightly better Scrapper survival and get in a team with buffs and become near Tanker level toughness with more damage. Tankers are very good at clearing trash with AoE since i26 giving them decent clear times also. The Brute needs a better ATO which could make quite a difference for them. Let me ask this.... do Brute players use the epic pool attacks at all? because they are 16 target just like a Tanker. The incarnate Judgement are equal also. It is only the Tanker main AoE attacks that benefit from increased AoE of which SS has 1, although it is a good one. The team were happy that under certain circumstances Tanker and Brute were very close clearing trash and in the right team a Brute is near Tanker survival. But a Brute takes harder targets down faster. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Captain Powerhouse... So far, in my own testing and data-mining, the only places I found tankers beat brute all involve having enemies literally rain on top of the tanker (in a kill 100 test.) Killing waves (with minions dying before higher rank enemies and intermittently lowering target saturation) the brute takes a clear advantage.

Well i posted my pylon times and they are there on that spread sheet that sits at the bottom of many posts in the Trapdoor test. Pylon dps mega sheet. Done by many unbiased testers. One extreme result that took forever to achieve with the luck of the gods, which Brutes are just as capable of doing better. I do not know of any Tanker that will break the 1minute 30 second pylon consistently. A tanker is more average 2 minutes or thereabout for fast average times and that is only certain builds with a hell of a lot of procs sacrificing Tanking power. Scrappers are low 1 minutes. Brutes are in the middle of those 2. Show me your evidence to say otherwise. A procced out Tanker can beat a none procced tanky built Brute though. But equal builds the Brute will win but be less survivable unless buffed by a team. Build the Brute to dps and let the team buff the survival. What Brutes seem to want is the ability to do both just as good as their counterparts. My SS/Bio brute does 1min 45 seconds average and that is toned back from 1 min 30 seconds to give it a more well rounded do all build. Show me your Tanker doing that? Show me your Tanker do low 1 minute pylons like Scrappers. According to this.... Captain Powerhouse. The base damage scale is being increased to the point it is precisely because forever the devs maintained that the tanker should be doing 75% the damage of a scrapper. In practice, the tanker was doing, an average of 60%~65% the damage of a scrapper, after mods, crits and higher +damage mods came to play. A base damage scale of 0.95 takes the tanker to approximately that point. --------------------------------------------------- Tankers really should be doing closer to Scrapper damage than they actually are now according to this statement.. Scrappers do Pylons in under 1 minute. Show me your data! If a Brute is fairly close to a Tankers clear times as your own data above shows and the Tanker does greater AoE then it shows the Brute must be hitting harder to even come close to keeping up. The SS time for Brute and Tanker average is 4.37? yet the Tanker has greater AoE. So what does that say?. Fire melee on Brutes and Tankers are not the same! Tanker AoE is what is closing the gaps in this test. Is your BU proc consistent or are you using it to exaggerate your times?

When you actually ask for a Brute buff or ask for a decent ATO for them i will be 110% behind you. Clear horizons until then 😉

But they don't. At the least it shows they are quite even in clearing trash but there can be many variables fudging it. On hard targets they are not even at all.

Is this thread unbiased or is it another attempt to nerf Tankers? The damage scale needs to stay. We lost Bruising and got a damage scale increase to compensate. Returning the Tanker to pre I26 would be awful to say the least lol with no Bruising and that mechanic was junk. If the damage scale dropped then the tanker becomes just a meat shield again and will struggle to take bosses down with their regen etc and players will abandon the class once again. This game has moved on a long time ago from Tanker and healer etc. Most classes are quite self sufficient with IO's now. I am not entirely against changes to the extra AoE though. Brutes were a big part of the reason Tankers got a buff. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Captain Powerhouse. The base damage scale is being increased to the point it is precisely because forever the devs maintained that the tanker should be doing 75% the damage of a scrapper. In practice, the tanker was doing, an average of 60%~65% the damage of a scrapper, after mods, crits and higher +damage mods came to play. A base damage scale of 0.95 takes the tanker to approximately that point. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe it isn't for Brutes but it is still better than Vigor for damage, but if you compensated then that can work also. I think you need to do a Scrapper test with a taunt set still. Let's see if it makes a difference. A hard target also. Scrappers, Brutes and Tankers are all really good trash clearers though.

I wonder why the Brute uses Vigor Core and the Scrapper/Tanker use Musculature. That is less damage for the Brute and if the Scrapper can survive then so can the Brute. Put musculature on the Brute and they will perform even better. How much +recharge was used? did you slot FF procs where you could? what procs were used? and so on. I see a Scrapper not using a taunt set and a Brute not using a damage incarnate. That is giving favor to the Tanker in the builds and not an even comparison.

Procs help to even the field because they don't care what AT uses them. I think it would be best not to use procs for the test then we can see just how much difference the procs are making. But as i said the Tanker hits more targets and the Brute hits harder. This makes them fairly even clearing trash especially when procs are used, but the Brute will pull ahead on a hard target but be less survivable unless team buffed. A Brute can not have near Scrapper damage and near Tanker survival. We know a Scrapper out damages a Tanker by quite a margin and a Brute does also, it is the extra radius of Tankers and procs which are closing the gaps.

Elec Armor isn't bad but it could do with a little tweak to improve it some and make it a little less boring. Having played them all i also find EA to be inferior slightly to the other resist sets. EA is not the most popular set for this reason...probably. The car drives ok but it is a little lacklustre it needs pimping out lol. @Zect they buffed Invulnerability, did they even need to? lol. I do not think @Spaghetti Betty suggestion is OTT.

The new BA hits hard. I have never done a comparison but i bet it will give SS a run for it's money.

Proc it! or get the Proc out!! Who gives a proc!!! 🤪

Yes a mission with a tough Boss/AV at the end. Maybe change the secondary powerset so the Scrapper has a decent taunt. Invulnerability? In a team a Tanker/Brute will hold aggro letting the Scrapper/stalker go to town. Even CC will allow them to do this. A solo Scrapper will have to make a decision to go with a stronger Taunt set or not. But as this is a solo test then a better set should be used. But reverting the Tanker to where it was pre buff is a ludicrous idea. It would be a slap in the face to all those who asked for it and would not look good for the developers. The extra AoE radius was unexpected by most, i even suggested it was a step to far back then but got shot down. Do i like the Tanker now? is it better than before?...hell yes!. Was it overbuffed....a little... probably, with the extra AoE. But the Tanker is more fun and enjoyable now than it ever was so asking to revert it is just bad, but i would not be against a few small tweaks in the right place. Seems like some are on a mission to bring the Tanker down too much. Maybe some need a small buff and maybe some do need a small nerf. But keep it reasonable as there is always time to tweak a little more where necessary. Brute/Tanker comparison is like Def/Corr. They were thrown together when they were not designed that way. The Brutes getting a decent ATO proc would be a good start. Procs are also a big factor in many builds. They can make a huge difference.